Milk and Dairy

jh79 · 05-04-2020 11:05am

Assetbacked wrote: »

Treasure trove and highly recommended source for purely science based analysis of food with no vested interest;
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/

Specific links in respect of estrogen consumption and the impacts on men; the link to weaker bones generally and link to increased risk of breast cancer in women;

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dairy-estrogen-and-male-fertility/

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-milk-good-for-our-bones/

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-effects-of-hormones-in-dairy-milk-on-cancer/

Dr Gregor is a complete charlatan .

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

_Brian · 05-04-2020 11:15am

Lady Haywire wrote: »

The Dr Greger who seems to run that website is the author of several books promoting strict veganism. Funny that. Must be total coincidence.

Follow the money. There are plenty of people making good money of vegans and producing dubious “science” based articles to feed their emotional weakness.

It comes back to the old nugget.

Vegans are allowed live whatever life choices they make even though for many it compromises their health and well being.

Veganism needs to rein in the extremists that beat down on the choices of others. The extremists want to implement some sort of fascist regime where only they get to choose what the whole population eat and how we live, that’s a really unhealthy stance for society.

The fact that we rarely see vegans condemning the extremists they are facilitating this behaviour and so are culpable in it.

Farming needs to be held to the highest standards. I want that myself. I Beleive in an-extensive rather than intensive farming method and there is so much more we can be doing for biodiversity and water quality.

auspicious · 30-08-2020 11:39pm

Lady Haywire wrote: »

The Dr Greger who seems to run that website is the author of several books promoting strict veganism. Funny that. Must be total coincidence.

Just want to point out all the proceeds of all his books are donated to charity.

TheRepentent · 03-09-2020 2:09am

auspicious wrote: »

Just want to point out all the proceeds of all his books are donated to charity.

So he makes money off selling sh1te but it's ok cos it's given to charity?

What charities does he give the money ?

Jjameson · 03-09-2020 9:49am

TheRepentent wrote: »

So he makes money off selling sh1te but it's ok cos it's given to charity?

What charities does he give the money ?

Vegan “charities”.. your wasting your time trying to reason with these zealots. When a person becomes radicalised to an extreme group and get that slightly zombie like deranged stare, and identify their religion as their identity, it’s a waste of time and energy trying to have a reasonable logical conversation.

Let the corporate food processors milk away on their belligerent stupidity I say.

gozunda · 11-09-2020 1:22pm

My apologies for being late getting back to this thread you-all

Reading the replies of some since my last comment - I think this needs restating ..m

Its tragic and bizarre to once again see those who choose a particular lifestyle attempt to use such incidents as a stick to best all and sundry and never shut up with the same old bs.

Using the anti-farming paid opinion pieces from the Guardian as an 'anonymous' source on accusatory farming practices is little better than expecting the pope to come out in support of contraception and be believable

Where there are incidents of poor animal welfare - that should be dealt with. Not used as propaganda for the few.

And to this ...

auspicious wrote: »

It persists because people consume dairy. It's not spoken about and the consumer is definitely not told about it. They just see the neat packaging with the pretty ribbon.
Who cares if you agree or not? It's about the animals and their world experience. They have to suffer it.

In all spheres of human food production- there are issues. Modern day slavery / forced labour exists in the fruit and vegetable industry because people continue to want to buy their cheap and exotic fruits and vegetables . So to use your words -

"It's not spoken about and the consumer is definitely not told about it. They just see the neat packaging with the pretty ribbon.
Who cares if you agree or not? It's about the [people] and their world experience. They have to suffer it."

And again where there are incidents of poor practices such as poor animal welfare or the forced labour of poor people - that should be dealt with. Not used as a stick to beat everyone over the head with.

AMKC · 11-09-2020 1:31pm

I am not Vegan but I also do not drink cows milk or have any dairy products and have been doing so for at least 12 years. I will continue to not because I have a choice but because it does not agree with me. I did drink a lot of milk before that but now mostly drink Soya milk and some rice milk.
I have a cousin who can drink it but does not see drinks soya and rice milk instead. I also have a sister who used to not be able to drink it but very recently she found out she could but she did not like it when she tried it and does not drink it. She drinks Soya milk.

gozunda · 11-09-2020 1:41pm

AMKC wrote: »

I am not Vegan but I also do not drink cows milk or have any dairy products and have been doing so for at least 12 years. I will continue to not because I have a choice but because it does not agree with me. I did drink a lot of milk before that but now mostly drink Soya milk and some rice milk.
I have a cousin who can drink it but does not see drinks soya and rice milk instead. I also have a sister who used to not be able to drink it but very recently she found out she could but she did not like it when she tried it and does not drink it. She drinks Soya milk.

Be aware much of the highly processed soy based liquids produced have a bunch of additives and a significant amount of sugar.

That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

Oh and soy is one of the major allergens which have to be declared as an ingredient

And no I'm not a dairy farmer ...

Not quite the health food its made out to be tbh

AMKC · 11-09-2020 9:19pm

gozunda wrote: »

Be aware much of the highly processed soy based liquids produced have a bunch of additives and a significant amount of sugar.

That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

Oh and soy is one of the major allergens which have to be declared as an ingredient

And no I'm not a dairy farmer ...

Not quite the health food its made out to be tbh

I know what my allergies and intolerances are and soy thankfully is not one of them.
What's wrong with it been grown in South America?

gozunda · 11-09-2020 10:52pm

AMKC wrote: »

I know what my allergies and intolerances are and soy thankfully is not one of them.
What's wrong with it been grown in South America?

This:

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/vegans-should-stop-drinking-soya-milk-in-order-to-save-the-rainforest-39454774.html

auspicious · 12-09-2020 12:33am

Seeds from the soybean plant provide high protein animal feed for livestock, and 80% of Amazon soy is destined for animal feed; smaller percentages are used for oil or eaten directly.

https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/soy

Almost 1.7mt of soya and maize genetically modified (GM) products were imported into Ireland for animal feeds in 2017, constituting approximately 50% of total feed imports.

We depend two times more on imported animal feed than our neighbours

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30832683.html#:~:text=Almost%201.7mt%20of%20soya,from%20continental%20Europe%2C%20including%20Ukraine.

antor · 12-09-2020 8:54am

gozunda wrote: »

That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

Alpro , Europe's biggest producer of "soy liquid " get all their soybeans from French farms.

I don't think that has any impact on deforestation in South America.

gozunda · 12-09-2020 1:03pm

Auspicious - incorrect as to the point made.

Nearly all soybeans are processed for their oil. Soy processors (such as Cargill & ADM) take the raw soybeans and separate the oil from the meal.

https://ncsoy.org/media-resources/uses-of-soybeans

For each bean processed 20% is oil and the remainder (80%*) is mainly 'meal'.

The fact is almost all soy oil is sold for HUMAN use.

And yes most of that 'meal' left over from the production of oil - is used for animal feed including dog food, cat food, horse feed and also used for feeding chicken, pigs and yes some goes for 'cow' feed.

For example - here is it being used in 'vegan' dog food

In Ireland grass and fodder make up the largest proportion of all feed types for cattle.

...drinking milk produced from cows in Ireland uses far less soya than consuming drinks made from soya.

"Vegans and others who buy milk substitutes made from soya for their latte and cappuccino, or breakfast cereal, are also harming the planet. They would do better to switch to milk from cows, and especially cows traditionally grazed on grass, if they want to help make a more sustainable planet," the report states.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/vegans-should-stop-drinking-soya-milk-in-order-to-save-the-rainforest-39454774.html

As for the article about feedstuffs being imported into Ireland. The reason is because our climate and topography and soils are generally not suited to growing arable crops*. In the UK - this is less an issue and it therefore depends much less on such imports.

This is why grass-fed livestock farming is so important here.

* note this is where your '80%' figure in your first link comes from.

gozunda · 12-09-2020 1:14pm

antor wrote: »

Alpro , Europe's biggest producer of "soy liquid " get all their soybeans from French farms.
I don't think that has any impact on deforestation in South America.

I believe the actual figure for 'Alpro' is 60% from French farms - and that only since 2019. So no not 'all' by any means.

But I think you will find the Alpro Corporation is certainly not the only producer of soy liquid derivatives in town.

I'd suggest a bit more research if you really dont believe that soy production is not a cause of deforestation in South America

Here's some videos of a case which was taken in the US - where cheap soy waste was being incorporated into prison meals. Scarey watching ..

https://hartkeisonline.com/2009/11/13/prison-soy-press-conference-videos/

antor · 12-09-2020 4:43pm

gozunda wrote: »

I believe the actual figure for 'Alpro' is 60% from French farms - and that only since 2019. So no not 'all' by any means.

You're right , they only get 60% from Europe, the other 40% comes from Canada.

At the last count, in 2017, 60% of the soybeans Alpro used were sourced in Europe (the target was 50%). The other 40% came from Canada. Here in Issenheim, 100% of the beans have been sourced within a 50km radius since 2009. “[By doing that] we shorten the supply chain and limit the transport footprint,” explained Greet Vanderhayden, sustainability manager at Alpro.

gozunda wrote: »

But I think you will find the Alpro Corporation is certainly not the only producer of soy liquid derivatives in town.

Ture , but if you look at this list you will see that the majority of soy liquid producers in Europe, (apart from a few outliers), get their soyabean from within the EU or Canada.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food-drink/shopping-guide/vegan-non-dairy-milk

gozunda wrote: »

I'd suggest a bit more research if you really dont believe that soy production is not a cause of deforestation in South America

I never said that , Im well aware that soybean production in South America is detrimental to the environment. I was saying that a company that doesn't get its soyabean from South America would hardly have an impact on deforestation in South America.

gozunda · 12-09-2020 5:54pm

antor wrote: »

You're right , they only get 60% from Europe, the other 40% comes from Canada...

I think the main point is Alpro (which is owned by Danone) is certainly not the only corporation selling soy liquid derivitives. And its not only Europe where this is an issue btw.

That said Alpro in Europe seems to have cleaned up its act in the last 3 years. Good on them.

But I strongly suspect that's down to the negative publicity of Soy related deforestation and same affecting its market share.

The statement attributed to them in your link is just downright ambiguous tbh.

In the past where we did not source our beans from Brazil, they were also not from our rainforest or deforested areas"

Similar ambiguity has got them in hot water previously

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2020/02/05/Danone-to-rethink-communication-on-Alpro-soy-product-following-accusations-it-misleads-consumers

The list linked certainly gives some brands as being sourced from EU and elsewhere

However at the bottom of that list it details

EcoMil, Granovita, Holland & Barrett, Co-op, Aldi, M&S

No info found.

Most of the supermarkets source soya from South America.

antor · 12-09-2020 9:51pm

gozunda wrote: »

I think the main point is Alpro (which is owned by Danone) is certainly not the only corporation selling soy liquid derivitives. And its not only Europe where this is an issue btw.

Here is a more extensive list , it's also more up to date. It includes Silk ,the US biggest soy liquid producer (also owned by Danone) they use home grown soybeans.

https://www.viva.org.uk/soya-planet

Just back to that article you linked

https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39454774.html

The headlines 'Vegans should stop drinking soya milk in order to save the rainforest'

Do you really believe that ??

Just had a quick look online and apparently there is 73 million vegans worldwide (Im sure thats a very loose figure)

You would have to reduce that number due to some people having a soy allergy.

Reduce it again as some vegans just don't like soy juice (it's an acquired taste).

Reduce it again to account for the people that buy soy juice from producers that don't use soybeans from South America , which is the majority.

And with the number of people that's left , if they gave up drinking soy juice we could save the rainforest.

What a load of BS

gozunda · 12-09-2020 10:10pm

antor wrote: »

Here is a more extensive list , it's also more up to date. It includes Silk ,the US biggest soy liquid producer (also owned by Danone) they use home grown soybeans. ]https://www.viva.org.uk/soya-planet
Just back to that article you linked
https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39454774.html. The headlines 'Vegans should stop drinking soya milk in order to save the rainforest'
Do you really believe that ??
...

It was already noted from your previous link that supermarkets source a lot of soy from S. America

And notably Asia Pacific dominates the market as many countries like China, India, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong are the major consumers of the product

Selected information from random website promoting veganism and conjectured back of napkin calculations doesn't really cut it tbh. So if you dont mind I'll leave that discussion there.

As for the article - the headline is an attention grabber for sure lol.

From the article.

The global consumption of soya products has been rising, but many are produced on deforested land with the Amazon rainforest suffering great losses due to soya production

And yes I think that has merit. It makes a point. That eveyone should stop using soy products from S. America. Especially where it impacts rainforest and other fragile habitats. And no its not just liquid derivitives of soy, or soy oil. Its all highly processed soy products. Soy often sourced in S. America is now added to bread and confectionery, used to make fake meats and added as a filler to an ever increasing amount of foods. See the videos I linked previously.

Ireland has a huge benefit over many countries in that the bulk of what cattle are fed is grass based. Yes some feeds are imported and from my own investigations into this - it would appear that much of this comes from the EU and the US.

Personally I'm not a fan of soy products for a wide range of reasons.

Jjameson · 22-09-2020 3:06pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8722215/amp/vegan-parents-starved-baby-nutrients-badly-one-year-old-developed-cerebral-palsy.html

Cruelty??

auspicious · 23-09-2020 1:39am

Jjameson wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8722215/amp/vegan-parents-starved-baby-nutrients-badly-one-year-old-developed-cerebral-palsy.html

Cruelty??

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DGThg6xaOXvE&ved=2ahUKEwi6pPO-gf7rAhXxRBUIHUtqCLoQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2s3DxmohWrVoyB0y5c0AUq

Negligent parents
https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+1+year+old&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7dDfhP7rAhUKRhUIHTxNDPwQ_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=360&bih=594&dpr=3#imgrc=kw86yOsgOA176M

Jjameson · 23-09-2020 7:33am

auspicious wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DGThg6xaOXvE&ved=2ahUKEwi6pPO-gf7rAhXxRBUIHUtqCLoQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2s3DxmohWrVoyB0y5c0AUq

Negligent parents
https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+1+year+old&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7dDfhP7rAhUKRhUIHTxNDPwQ_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=360&bih=594&dpr=3#imgrc=kw86yOsgOA176M

https://www.irishpost.com/news/irish-american-couple-starved-toddler-death-vegan-diet-charged-murder-175974

Inflicting their “belief” on an infant.
Strict radicalised Vegan parents = cruelty to children.

auspicious · 23-09-2020 1:01pm

Jjameson wrote: »

https://www.irishpost.com/news/irish-american-couple-starved-toddler-death-vegan-diet-charged-murder-175974

Inflicting their “belief” on an infant.
Strict radicalised Vegan parents = cruelty to children.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

Jjameson · 23-09-2020 1:26pm

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

Like any child reared in a cult. Monkey see monkey do. Leaving a child malnourished in a first world country because of a deranged narrative or as I more commonly known as “ belief” is disgusting.

auspicious · 23-09-2020 1:32pm

Jjameson wrote: »

Like any child reared in a cult. Monkey see monkey do. Leaving a child malnourished in a first world country because of a deranged narrative or as I more commonly known as “ belief” is disgusting.

.

Have you never lovingly referred to your own kids as little monkeys ðŸ’?

Jjameson · 23-09-2020 1:38pm

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

Requiring regular blood tests, artificial supplements. The diet is an ethical choice for people based on a nonsensical narrative. It’s unfortunate it didn’t render some of the examples above sterile quite quickly enough to save the suffering of their innocent offspring.

https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-kids-go-vegan-can-mean-jail-time-in-belgium/amp/

There should be European directives.

Jjameson · 23-09-2020 1:39pm

auspicious wrote: »

.

Have you never lovingly referred to your own kids as little monkeys ðŸ’?

Wtf.

auspicious · 23-09-2020 1:43pm

Jjameson wrote: »

Wtf.

Monkey see monkey do. Why did your kids eat what they ate? Because of your beliefs perhaps? Did did have a baptism?
All parents force their beliefs on their children.

gozunda · 23-09-2020 1:53pm

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

Tbf - it wasnt healthy for that child. And with that I think that article brings this thread to a point.

There are lots of reports of children and babies ending up with life threatening conditions and / or malnurishment having been fed exclusively vegan diets.

And no out of respect for the forum - I'm not going to list any of them.

Regardless of how horrendous these reports are - in all probability they represent only a fraction of people. Much as the absolute majority of dairying farms are managed both ethically and legally contrary to the title of this thread

It would be interesting to see the resulting outrage if someone started a thread in the farming forum - titled "Vegan diets = cruelty to children".

Time for this thread to be closed down and stop encouraging hate against others.

auspicious · 23-09-2020 1:56pm

Jjameson wrote: »

Requiring regular blood tests, artificial supplements. The diet is an ethical choice for people based on a nonsensical narrative. It’s unfortunate it didn’t render some of the examples above sterile quite quickly enough to save the suffering of their innocent offspring.

https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-kids-go-vegan-can-mean-jail-time-in-belgium/amp/

There should be European directives.

The public, even doctors, are not taught about nutrition.
Every parent should know how to feed their child a healthy diet.
The article you posted addresses concerns about inadequately provided diets by unknowledgeable parents.
This should also apply to negligent parents feeding kids a terrible diet of sugar and fast food, that grow obese or have tooth decay and fillings etc as a result.

From your article
"...Although there have been case reports of children failing to thrive or developing cobalamin deficiency on vegan diets, these are rare exceptions,” the academy notes on its website. “Multiple experts have concluded independently that vegan diets can be followed safely by infants and children without compromise of nutrition or growth and with some notable health benefits.”

Jjameson · 23-09-2020 1:59pm

auspicious wrote: »

Monkey see monkey do. Why did your kids eat what they ate? Because of your beliefs perhaps? Did did have a baptism?
All parents force their beliefs on their children.

Yes they eat what we learned passed from generation to generation from Years of evolution what children thrive on in this part of the world. Thank God they are well developed for age without allergies or illness. Where’s the vegans on your family lineage?
They see animals born and see animal killed and didn’t get the reality of how nature and food production works from a Disney cartoon. There’s a distinction between people and animals.

Yes they were baptised in a church built on a site where prayer to a higher being has been practiced for over 1500 years and beyond. Who am I to deny them?

Milk and Dairy

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