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Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    Ethiopian airlines to

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/11/ethiopia-airline-crash-china-grounds-boeing-737-max-8-jets-in-wake-of-disaster

    Some airlines confirmed they have no intention of grounding for now


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    I can see something like this Southwest mod becoming an AD...
    https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines-is-adding-new-angle-of-attack-indicators-to-its-737-max-fleet/

    I hadn't realised that all mention or reference to the MCAS system had been deliberately omitted from the FCOMs, I thought it was the case that it hadn't been highlighted sufficiently or not properly picked up on

    I remember when the B737 classics started appearing first, we used to get a lot of crews reporting stab trim runaway on take off but it was actually just the new speed trim function of the Classic which wasn't on the -200s. The crews were aware of the feature but because it rarely ever kicked in it seemed to catch them by surprise when they first encountered it for real...


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I won't be flying on these aircraft until I know what caused two brand new ones to crash months apart. Two crashed out of 350 delivered is a very poor statistic for a modern airliner I would have thought. RIP to all who perished.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    I hadn't realised that all mention or reference to the MCAS system had been deliberately omitted from the FCOMs, I thought it was the case that it hadn't been highlighted sufficiently or not properly picked up on

    Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

    From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them. This seem to be the case with the Lion Air where the MCAS pitched the nose down 26 times in reaction to bad sensor data, so it didn't matter what the pilot did with the yoke, without flipping off the stabilizer cutout switches.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    STB. wrote: »
    Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

    From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them. This seem to be the case with the Lion Air where the MCAS pitched the nose down 26 times in reaction to bad sensor data, so it didn't matter what the pilot did with the yoke, without flipping off the stabilizer cutout switches.

    Lot of controversy over whether it is MCAS (we won't know till we know). But to the point of the aircraft behaving in an unexpected way generally (whether it had an effect here or not) I guess it speaks to the challenge between feeding pilots every bit of information that might be relevant vs burying them in so much the important stuff gets lost.

    Bad day for the MAX program, and given the general public's level of insight probably the 737 generally. They'll have to do something quick to get confidence back.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    Does Norwegian Air fly the Max from Dublin to Providence daily ? I see one parked up every day on the Swords Rd just inside the fence between 10 & 2

    What was the cause of the Lion Air crash ? Was it faulty readings or sensors which meant the plane was going too fast ?

    Tks


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    STB. wrote: »
    Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

    From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them.

    Pilots don't read maintenance manuals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,543 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    737 Max isn't FBW.



    In our QRH we have a table of power settings and pitch attitudes that will maintain safe level flight, climb or descent, if you have unreliable airspeed indications. It's exactly the same principle you would use in your single engine. It's pure nonsense suggesting that such a situation would lead to "a death spiral with a load of bongs".
    Also, 2 engines is plenty. If you have a bird strike that takes out 2 engines (Sully style) then in all likelihood it would have taken out 4 if you had them. Any other "dual failure" is so statistically unlikely as to be considered practically impossible.
    I'm surprised you're comfortable flying a single if you really feel that paranoid about modern jets.

    With MCAS on and making the decisions, it might as well be fly-by-wire. I read somewhere that the stabiliser can overpower the elevator, giving it authority. The MCAS therefore has more input than the pilot does. Pilots are trying to arm wrestle a Terminator.

    So much seems wrong about the 737 Max and the MCAS that I suspect the final findings will be that the FAA has become embedded in Boeing and have been giving them too much of what they want and not enough independent oversight.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Providence is a MAX8 route.

    The Lion Air crash appears to have been a maintenance issue causing faulty angle of attack readings; which then caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to repeatedly put the airframe in to a dive. If this is the case, blame probably has to be to split - the airframe shouldn't have been flown, but MCAS should not have caused it to dive either. However its not fully investigated yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭thebond


    Ryanair expected to make annoucement later about new orders of MAX, hopefully they will suspend order until crash investigation completed etc


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 Youdunnit


    cnocbui wrote: »
    With MCAS on and making the decisions, it might as well be fly-by-wire. I read somewhere that the stabiliser can overpower the elevator, giving it authority. The MCAS therefore has more input than the pilot does. Pilots are trying to arm wrestle a Terminator.

    So much seems wrong about the 737 Max and the MCAS that I suspect the final findings will be that the FAA has become embedded in Boeing and have been giving them too much of what they want and not enough independent oversight.

    Could be a factor alright,political interference in regulation and oversight

    Tweaking things a little in Boeings favour, wouldn't surprise me with trump around


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,543 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    STB. wrote: »
    Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

    From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them. This seem to be the case with the Lion Air where the MCAS pitched the nose down 26 times in reaction to bad sensor data, so it didn't matter what the pilot did with the yoke, without flipping off the stabilizer cutout switches.

    Well done Boeing, they are obviously fans of the Vogon style of information dissemination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,543 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Youdunnit wrote: »
    Could be a factor alright,political interference in regulation and oversight

    Tweaking things a little in Boeings favour, wouldn't surprise me with trump around

    Trump tried to get his personal pilot to head the FAA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭RiseToMe


    Indonesia looks to have ordered all local airlines to ground all 737 Max from tomorrow


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Does Norwegian Air fly the Max from Dublin to Providence daily ? I see one parked up every day on the Swords Rd just inside the fence between 10 & 2

    What was the cause of the Lion Air crash ? Was it faulty readings or sensors which meant the plane was going too fast ?

    Tks

    The working theory is that a faulty sensor led to the computer thinking it was in a stall, pitching the nose down 2 degrees for 10 seconds at a time. You can override by cutting off the stab trim, but when the aircraft is pitching down and telling you you're in a stall I imagine it's a pretty novel situation and figuring out to flip the cutoff switches isn't second nature. Taking it back further, the 737MAX has a different flight envelope due to the engine weight and positioning, and software has been used to try make it fly like a NG as far as any pilot is concerned, meaning certification on a NG is good for a MAX. Makes it easier to introduce it into 737 fleets.

    Now, Lion shouldn't have been in the air after giving problems the previous flights. But there is a lot of feeling I sense among folks who think the aircraft shouldn't try to actively kill you if one sensor is having trouble. That's based on some preliminary data and not nailed down, and folks like to equate every problem to previous ones (note the marked uptick in speculation about pilot suicide in recent years); but if I could unpick the commentary on the MAX it seems to boil down to a sense that (a) she doesn't like to fly the way a NG does, and perhaps the platform has gone a step too far; and (b) the software introduced to help her fly like a NG as far as a pilot is concerned may well put you in the ground.

    Again, I stress it's all preliminary and even suggesting Lion and ET are the same cause is speculation, but 2 crashes within 5 months of one another of a 2 year old type is going to demand some critical reviews and good answers as to why either it's a terrible coincidence, or there's an issue that we've fixed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 Youdunnit


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Trump tried to get his personal pilot to head the FAA.

    There seems to have been a deal involving Trump/Boeing/ FAA and Vietnam

    You could argue then it makes it less likely they cancel 737 max orders or ground US planes


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99


    This is quite a good article of flight crew issues with the info made available to them about MCAS .

    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/dispute-arises-among-u-s-pilots-on-boeing-737-max-system-linked-to-lion-air-crash


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    The working theory is that a faulty sensor led to the computer thinking it was in a stall, pitching the nose down 2 degrees for 10 seconds at a time. You can override by cutting off the stab trim, but when the aircraft is pitching down and telling you you're in a stall I imagine it's a pretty novel situation and figuring out to flip the cutoff switches isn't second nature. Taking it back further, the 737MAX has a different flight envelope due to the engine weight and positioning, and software has been used to try make it fly like a NG as far as any pilot is concerned, meaning certification on a NG is good for a MAX. Makes it easier to introduce it into 737 fleets.

    Now, Lion shouldn't have been in the air after giving problems the previous flights. But there is a lot of feeling I sense among folks who think the aircraft shouldn't try to actively kill you if one sensor is having trouble. That's based on some preliminary data and not nailed down, and folks like to equate every problem to previous ones (note the marked uptick in speculation about pilot suicide in recent years); but if I could unpick the commentary on the MAX it seems to boil down to a sense that (a) she doesn't like to fly the way a NG does, and perhaps the platform has gone a step too far; and (b) the software introduced to help her fly like a NG as far as a pilot is concerned may well put you in the ground.

    Again, I stress it's all preliminary and even suggesting Lion and ET are the same cause is speculation, but 2 crashes within 5 months of one another of a 2 year old type is going to demand some critical reviews and good answers as to why either it's a terrible coincidence, or there's an issue that we've fixed.

    That's very interesting, and might be proved correct in time.

    What's more incredible is that someone random on an internet site would know how to save a 737 MAX in that situation whereas those who actually pilot the things apparently don't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    Good article on the Lion Air crash

    https://www.heraldnet.com/business/lion-air-crash-probe-turns-to-systems-that-command-737-pitch/


    Is there any information out there from pilots who have come across this situation during a flight of the Max 8 and who corrected the issue manually? It would be unusual that this situation has possibly happened only twice before ?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    That's very interesting, and might be proved correct in time.

    What's more incredible is that someone random on an internet site would know how to save a 737 MAX in that situation whereas those who actually pilot the things apparently don't.
    Well the issue was examined after the 1st MAX crash, the flight data is in the public sphere. The MCAS issue was raised and Boeing communicatedto operators. The software in place to ease transition from NG model to MAX model is also public ally known. So an experienced individual who reads these type of manuals and advisories can give an educated guess with the current data.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,727 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    thebond wrote: »
    Ryanair expected to make annoucement later about new orders of MAX, hopefully they will suspend order until crash investigation completed etc

    Where did you get this from, I had a quick google and could find nothing, it makes sense though given the size of their order and the bad press around this type, especially while the cause is still up in the air.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    RiseToMe wrote: »
    Indonesia looks to have ordered all local airlines to ground all 737 Max from tomorrow


    Royal Air Maroc are grounding too


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    thebond wrote: »
    Ryanair expected to make annoucement later about new orders of MAX, hopefully they will suspend order until crash investigation completed etc


    Weren't they Max 200's not 8 or 9's?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Tenger wrote: »
    Well the issue was examined after the 1st MAX crash, the flight data is in the public sphere. The MCAS issue was raised and Boeing communicatedto operators. The software in place to ease transition from NG model to MAX model is also public ally known. So an experienced individual who reads these type of manuals and advisories can give an educated guess with the current data.

    I gather from reading various articles they had planed to update the software for MCAS after the Lion Air crash but it has not yet been released.

    MCAS was designed to take account of the heavier engine weight and placement in the Max and make it feel like a 737. Reports are also up in articles that the Boeing switches are UP for OFF but the stab cutout switches are DOWN for OFF might contribute to the confusion.

    And multiple pilots organisations were apparently up in arms when they only discovered details of autopilot software linked to MCAS, as part of the Lion Air investigation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    That's very interesting, and might be proved correct in time.

    What's more incredible is that someone random on an internet site would know how to save a 737 MAX in that situation whereas those who actually pilot the things apparently don't.

    Not sure if you're wondering why pilots don't know this or if it's a case of armchair quarterbacking from me (to be clear, I'm summarising what I've read rather than offering a definite opinion)... As Tenger has said, the Lion crash (which only happened 5 months ago) has been analysed and some preliminary findings have led to well documented initial moves re the feature. As I said myself, it's a pretty novel situation to arise at the time of Lion - New a/c type, new feature, that may do some pretty unexpected things uncomfortably close to the ground. In the best of circumstances a well trained crew can do the wrong things; I suspect they have even less of a hope if its a poorly understood different software feature to the plane you type rated on. And that's the issue that the Lion crash is throwing up, and why suspicion is falling on this crash and wondering if it's the same thing at play.

    Time will tell for both accidents. In the meantime as I say, 2 birds down within 5 months within the 2 year window from launch, customers are going to be dubious until answers arise.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    vicwatson wrote: »
    Weren't they Max 200's not 8 or 9's?

    MAX 200 is just a higher density version of the MAX 8.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭sReq | uTeK


    Tenger wrote: »
    MAX 200 is just a higher density version of the MAX 8.

    Exactly, same plane more seats.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    DFDR and CVR have been recovered at crash site.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,754 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Brother in law works for the World Food Program....Lost 25 people from his group.
    Very very sad.


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