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Will exclusion based on religion really stop?

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Comments

  • #32
    Lackadaisical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    It's not something to be greedy about but the budgets are constrained by what's possible and if you squander them on unnecessary divisions the net result is poor facilities and outcomes.

    The resources aren't unlimited.


  • #33
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,846 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Vol schools typically only receive 70% of the funding they need from the state, ETB schools get 100% of funding.

    How do ETB schools get more money, is it higher capitation, and ancillary service payments.


  • #34
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    How do ETB schools get more money, is it higher capitation, and ancillary service payments.

    All etb schools pull from central fund that can buy in bulk and reduce cost. Now the down side is etb's are open to massive fraud due to lack of oversight (see kildare etb for example). Also many etb's schools are new as gov push secular schools, only one new vol secondary school in Dublin in last round of new schools. New schools need less but etb fund same size so plenty to go around. If Ireland were run like most vol schools finances we would be in a much Healthier place.


  • #35
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,846 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    visg wrote: »
    I agree that it is not right. They are a minority so focus on that will not change much. I don't know why people here focus on it much.

    OP , so you don't want people to focus on admissions policies of minority schools where religious discrimination is allowed, yet you start a thread on perceived religious discrimination in schools, in which, it is illegal to discriminate on religious grounds.


  • #36
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    OP , so you don't want people to focus on admissions policies of minority schools where religious discrimination is allowed, yet you start a thread on perceived religious discrimination in schools, in which, it is illegal to discriminate on religious grounds.


    You are changing my words:)


    I say that it shouldn't be allowed as well, but focusing on it will not really help the situation since they are just a small minority. I just found it weird that in every 3 posts or so it is mentioned.



    As I said:
    no school should have any admission policy. First come first server for every school that is out there and no hassle in providing education for your kids:)


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  • #37
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    visg wrote: »
    You are changing my words:)


    I say that it shouldn't be allowed as well, but focusing on it will not really help the situation since they are just a small minority. I just found it weird that in every 3 posts or so it is mentioned.



    As I said:
    no school should have any admission policy. First come first server for every school that is out there and no hassle in providing education for your kids:)

    Of course you need a way to filter kids, otherwise you could end up with some kids never seeing school. Imagine your 4 yr old doesn't get in, you try again the nxt yr doesn't, year after that doesn't, now you've a 7 yr old with no school. (Assuming you live on a remote island and no chance of another school)


  • #38
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,282 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I think every school should have an admission policy, it should be reasonable stuff though like sibling currently attending then a geographic area (not one school per area but a broader one with overlaps) as children from miles away taking spots may force other children to travel miles and that could go on. I’m sure there a few other reasonable criteria that could be used too.
    Oh just seen above age too preference to 5yo over 4 yo is reasonable too.


  • #39
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    Lackadaisical wrote: »
    It's not something to be greedy about but the budgets are constrained by what's possible and if you squander them on unnecessary divisions the net result is poor facilities and outcomes.

    The resources aren't unlimited.


    From my point of view you are now (almost) exactly highlighting the whole issue in a one liner.



    "if you squander them on unnecessary divisions the net result is poor facilities and outcomes"


    Exactly what is happening now and why education is not always properly funded. There are enormous differences between schools and this should not be the case. Lack of oversight and transparency. There is no oversight due to all the differences.





    And think about the fact that we are now in a reasonable good economic state. What happens when there would be an economic decline? And this might be closer then some people think. Therefor you need to invest during the good times. Education should be above all.


  • #40
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    salmocab wrote: »
    I think every school should have an admission policy, it should be reasonable stuff though like sibling currently attending then a geographic area (not one school per area but a broader one with overlaps) as children from miles away taking spots may force other children to travel miles and that could go on. I’m sure there a few other reasonable criteria that could be used too.
    Oh just seen above age too preference to 5yo over 4 yo is reasonable too.


    I think you could be questioning why children from miles away would be applying in the first place anyway. If they would not be forced to do so, they wouldn't.


  • #41
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,282 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    visg wrote: »
    I think you could be questioning why children from miles away would be applying in the first place anyway. If they would not be forced to do so, they wouldn't.

    I’m not questioning anything, there are multiple reasons why someone might bring their child miles to a different school. Myself we are looking at getting our children into a different school to the closest one albeit the others are between a mile and a mile and a half away as we live in aDublin. But that all said when it comes to it I’ve no problem with local kids getting a place over kids that live much further away. Obviously what constitutes local depends on where you live in Dublin 3 or 4 miles could get you to maybe 8 or 9 schools and in a rural town that might not get you to another one at all.


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  • #42
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    salmocab wrote: »
    I’m not questioning anything, there are multiple reasons why someone might bring their child miles to a different school. Myself we are looking at getting our children into a different school to the closest one albeit the others are between a mile and a mile and a half away as we live in aDublin. But that all said when it comes to it I’ve no problem with local kids getting a place over kids that live much further away. Obviously what constitutes local depends on where you live in Dublin 3 or 4 miles could get you to maybe 8 or 9 schools and in a rural town that might not get you to another one at all.


    And what would be your view on:


    Some expat works for a US company and just moved to a commuting town of Dublin. I know that some might advise to go back to your own country:) but lets be honest, a large part of the economy are foreign firms that attract expats.



    - educate together is unfortunately not possible due to the waiting list
    - Catholic schools are not eager to take you because you are not catholic. Some still have the policy, and some did follow the law but have multiple other factors in the admission policy.

    - As mentioned the protestant schools will not take you as well.



    Where can you go? Maybe after being bounced around you finally find a place at the other side of town. When it is April, there is a very high chance you actually need to wait till the next semester before you can join. I just do not understand why it is not common sense to have a place at school.


  • #43
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,846 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    visg wrote: »
    You are changing my words:)


    I say that it shouldn't be allowed as well, but focusing on it will not really help the situation since they are just a small minority. I just found it weird that in every 3 posts or so it is mentioned.



    As I said:
    no school should have any admission policy. First come first server for every school that is out there and no hassle in providing education for your kids:)

    If it was first come first served, how would you manage the parents who enroll there children at birth into several local schools and decide a week before the child starts school, which school the child will go too.


  • #44
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,282 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    visg wrote: »
    And what would be your view on:


    Some expat works for a US company and just moved to a commuting town of Dublin. I know that some might advise to go back to your own country:) but lets be honest, a large part of the economy are foreign firms that attract expats.



    - educate together is unfortunately not possible due to the waiting list
    - Catholic schools are not eager to take you because you are not catholic. Some still have the policy, and some did follow the law but have multiple other factors in the admission policy.

    - As mentioned the protestant schools will not take you as well.



    Where can you go? Maybe after being bounced around you finally find a place at the other side of town. When it is April, there is a very high chance you actually need to wait till the next semester before you can join. I just do not understand why it is not common sense to have a place at school.

    I don’t understand your point, firstly catholic schools if they have a place will certainly take you as will Protestant schools (we are trying a Protestant one locally that definitely has Catholics attending). Should schools keep places for the American business man scenario just in case? If a school is full it’s full. Maybe I’m missing what your trying to say though.


  • #45
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    If it was first come first served, how would you manage the parents who enroll there children at birth into several local schools and decide a week before the child starts school, which school the child will go too.


    You could ask the question why parents would consider to do this in the first place:)


  • #46
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    salmocab wrote: »
    I don’t understand your point, firstly catholic schools if they have a place will certainly take you as will Protestant schools (we are trying a Protestant one locally that definitely has Catholics attending). Should schools keep places for the American business man scenario just in case? If a school is full it’s full. Maybe I’m missing what your trying to say though.


    I would say its just very tight and preferences are still given based on religion.



    There should not be a lack of places in school.


  • #47
    Lackadaisical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    I know of two french couples working for IT companies that just returned to France because of the schools issues.

    They were living in central Dublin and most of the schools in the area were very traditional and many were single gender only.

    They weren't happy with it as an environment for their kids and just returned to France.

    It's actually a problem that must have some degree of impact on recruitment here.


  • #48
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    Lackadaisical wrote: »
    I know of two french couples working for IT companies that just returned to France because of the schools issues.

    They were living in central Dublin and most of the schools in the area were very traditional and many were single gender only.

    It's actually a problem that must have some degree of impact on recruitment here.




    Exactly! It is a common story for me.



    And I think it his fairly easy to solve. It costs no money to change admission policies.



    In some EU countries it is the law: When a school refuses you, the school needs to make sure that you get another school, otherwise they are not allowed by law to refuse you.


  • #49
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,282 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    visg wrote: »
    Exactly! It is a common story for me.



    And I think it his fairly easy to solve. It costs no money to change admission policies.



    In some EU countries it is the law: When a school refuses you, the school needs to make sure that you get another school, otherwise they are not allowed by law to refuse you.

    So if a school has room for 30 kids in junior infants and 180 apply the school needs to find space elsewhere for 150 kids?
    I do think the current system isn’t great but I think schools need to have admission policy’s.


  • #50
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    salmocab wrote: »
    So if a school has room for 30 kids in junior infants and 180 apply the school needs to find space elsewhere for 150 kids?
    I do think the current system isn’t great but I think schools need to have admission policy’s.




    exactly


    and when that would be the case, there is actually a bigger problem. You should be questioning why 180 apply for only 30 places.



    Having all this private interests over our young children is not such a good thing.


  • #51
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    I found this facts. I am not allowed to posts links but you can google:

    Almost uniquely in Europe, Ireland has a monopolistic denominational tradition in schools
    96% of primary schools being denominational, with 90% Catholic and 6% Protestant (2 Islamic schools/1 Jewish)
    4% of schools ‘multi-denominational’ (80+ Educate Together/12 Community N.S. ETB)

    I think when you are not really welcome on 96% of the schools, it can be challenging.


    Good to have some numbers.


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  • #52
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,846 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    visg wrote: »
    I would say its just very tight and preferences are still given based on religion.



    There should not be a lack of places in school.

    If a school has places, ie, is under the maximum, pupil/ teacher ratio, it is obliged to take students, if a school is over the ratio, it is not, it is not the schools fault if it is oversubscribed.
    If a school is over the ratio for September, the first month of the school year, it can apply for extra teaching staff , usually these appointments are sanctioned to begin the following September, if the school needs extra classrooms for these teachers, it can apply at the end of September also, for funding for the new buildings, our local school was granted funding 11 months after the application, and the building was finished 19 months after that, the actual build took 4 months.
    If there is a lack of places, it rarely has anything to do with admissions policies, or school management, more to do with government policy. If a developer wants to build more than 60 houses, a creche has to be part of the development, there is no similar joined up thinking with the dept of education regarding school facilities.


  • #53
    visg
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭visg


    I feel that this is going in circles.

    I guess that the majority likes it the way it is but admits there are issues. I have made my statement about this.

    It was good to hear other people their opinion on this. I also read information about ETB and VOL that I was not aware of.

    I will leave it here.

    Thanks to everybody participating in this discussion. Thank you for your contribution.


  • #54
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,846 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    visg wrote: »

    I think when you are not really welcome on 96% of the schools, it can be challenging.


    Good to have some numbers.

    Glad that you learned something from this thread OP, but saying that non denominational children are not really welcome in 96% of schools is rubbish, this is Ireland in 2019 not 1939


  • #55
    Lackadaisical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    Well they weren't welcome until 2018 when the law changed.

    You don't have to go that far back to find the darkages on this island.

    If the shoe were on the other foot, for example if 90% if English schools had been Church of England and Irish Catholics were only offered places when the local church of England students got places I suspect there'd have been uproar.


  • #56
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,846 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    Lackadaisical wrote: »
    Well they weren't welcome until 2018 when the law changed.

    You don't have to go that far back to find the darkages on this island.

    If the shoe were on the other foot, for example if 90% if English schools had been Church of England and Irish Catholics were only offered places when the local church of England students got places I suspect there'd have been uproar.

    The change in legislation has nothing to do with the welcome, CoI students were always welcome in our local Catholic school, so much so, that the local CoI school closed about 8 years ago, as the parents preferred to send the children to the Catholic school.


  • #57
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    CoI students were always welcome in our local Catholic school

    I think the problem is the other way round.
    salmocab wrote: »
    I don’t understand your point, firstly catholic schools if they have a place will certainly take you as will Protestant schools (we are trying a Protestant one locally that definitely has Catholics attending).

    Good to hear that the schools in your area haven’t slipped back into the dark ages like they have around here in Greystones where the local CoI primary school not only excludes non protestants but made many of them feel distinctly unwelcome.

    The BoM even went as far as turning down an extra teacher (which was unprecedented according to the department) but by keeping the school small they could legally keep it protestant.

    They didn’t count on driving their own flock away though..

    Their policy is now seriously backfiring as significant numbers of CoI parents are turning down places solely due to the ill feeling and anger around the sectarian policy. After all, who wants their child educated in that kind of environment?

    The BoM have long since lost the support of the majority of existing parents and staff but have managed to silence them for now.

    Money talks in the end though. 2 years ago only 6% of admissions to this school were non parish affiliated yet now they’re quite literally offering places to anyone with a few quid and I hear yet more begging letters are to be sent out to the remaining parishioners in the coming weeks but they can only carry the can for so long.

    People ultimately vote with their feet and thankfully the majority won’t accept sectarianism any more, especially where they have other school options available to them.


  • #58
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I think the OP's question has been answered. If people wish to start a separate thread on minority religions, please do.


  • #59
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    visg wrote: »
    And what would be your view on:


    Some expat works for a US company and just moved to a commuting town of Dublin. I know that some might advise to go back to your own country:) but lets be honest, a large part of the economy are foreign firms that attract expats.



    - educate together is unfortunately not possible due to the waiting list
    - Catholic schools are not eager to take you because you are not catholic. Some still have the policy, and some did follow the law but have multiple other factors in the admission policy.

    - As mentioned the protestant schools will not take you as well.



    Where can you go? Maybe after being bounced around you finally find a place at the other side of town. When it is April, there is a very high chance you actually need to wait till the next semester before you can join. I just do not understand why it is not common sense to have a place at school.

    No school, Educate Together or otherwise, is allowed a waiting list for anything other than the current school year. If an ET school is still operating a first come first served enrolment policy they too are breaking the law.


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