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General Thoughts and Frustrations When Learning To Swim

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  • 28-07-2016 11:42am
    #1
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭


    Swimming seems to be one of those things that once you know how to do it, it's easy and natural, but if you don't - it's damn near impossible.

    After years of frustration at only being able to "not drown", I've started to take lessons.

    I'm only a few weeks in and I can absolutely state that I'm making progress, but it feels SO slow and frustrating at times.

    Maybe I'm expecting progress too quickly?

    For example, today I swam;

    2 lengths with a kick board, 2 lengths with a pull buoy, 2 lengths freetsyle,

    Then; a length freestyle straight into a length backstroke x3 and it nearly killed me.

    And finished with 2 lengths with a kick board, 2 lengths with a pull buoy, 2 lengths freetsyle.

    The kick board / pull buoy / free style circuit is fine.. I get a length done without gasping, but linking 2 together would suck.

    I know it's an efficiency and breath management thing, along with "just getting used to it", but I'm hoping some others on here will have some stories of their days of misery in the pool when they were getting going, and be able to tell me now about they swim like a fish....


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    #2
    Squall Leonhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Squall Leonhart


    Presumably you have the muscle strength to pull yourself around the water (based on your contributions to other threads). That's a huge positive.

    I 'swim' from one end of the pool to the other a few times (lengths I believe they're called haha :)) and my arms are fatigued to the point where pulling myself out of the pool can be an ordeal. I've often had to kinda do a seal thing where I just roll up onto the deck because my arms don't work.

    I guess just keep at it, and at it, and at it. Unfortunately for me where I am getting to a pool just isn't possible with any regularity, so I won't improve until that changes.

    Good luck Hanley!


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    #3
    Seanie_H
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭Seanie_H


    I find and have been told.... swim:
    x4 times a week to improve
    x3 times to maintain your level
    x2 times good for stretching and that's about it

    Put in 3 weeks of x4 times a week and you'll see some benefits


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    #4
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Best of luck with it


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    #5
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Squall Leonhart wrote: »
    Presumably you have the muscle strength to pull yourself around the water (based on your contributions to other threads). That's a huge positive.

    I 'swim' from one end of the pool to the other a few times (lengths I believe they're called haha :)) and my arms are fatigued to the point where pulling myself out of the pool can be an ordeal. I've often had to kinda do a seal thing where I just roll up onto the deck because my arms don't work.

    I guess just keep at it, and at it, and at it. Unfortunately for me where I am getting to a pool just isn't possible with any regularity, so I won't improve until that changes.

    Good luck Hanley!

    Yah I guess I'm extremely lucky that I have;

    - the physical capacity to swim well
    - a pool that's €30/month 4 minutes from my door
    - a flexible schedule that lets me go during quiet times and almost always get my own lane

    I've everything I need. Just gotta keep showing up :)


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    #6
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Seanie_H wrote: »
    I find and have been told.... swim:
    x4 times a week to improve
    x3 times to maintain your level
    x2 times good for stretching and that's about it

    Put in 3 weeks of x4 times a week and you'll see some benefits

    I've been in the pool daily for the last 6 days - 20-30 minutes a time only and I've already noticed HUGE benefits. Very very excited to see what I can report back with next week :)


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    #7
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Given other posts I'm guessing your very fit. I'd concentrate on technique rather then distance. Practice makes permanent rather then perfect and if your killing yourself to do a certain program or distance you may be practicing a poor technique.
    It does take time and if your making progress I wouldn't be worried.

    I presume your getting lessons and not trying to learn on your own lifting your head to breath or worse?

    I often see people who do a lot of strength work expecting too much too soon forcing themselves to cover certain distances by dragging themselves through the water. Some will hold too much air in their lungs or take too big a breath each time or have very short strokes with a flat body position. Try to have a longer stroke rolling tour hips, torso and shoulders with your stroke and try to get used to breathing every three strokes and not holding your breath. Another thing that can tire you of the top of my head is putting too much effort into the kick, you need it to balance your stroke and keep your body position correct but it doesn't contribute an awful lot to your propulsion, if you need to kill yourself to prevent the legs sinking etc your doing it wrong.

    Getting tired very quickly is nearly always the breathing though - poor technique like lifting the head or not having breathed out when your head is turned, holding too much air in, not breathing often enough or taking too big a breath each go. Even when your technique is fair enough it can still be tiring if your not relaxed in the water but that will come with time -imagine jogging with half your muscles tensed up.

    Trust your (presuming you have one) teacher rather then what I or anyone on the internet who hasn't seen you swim says.


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    #8
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Given other posts I'm guessing your very fit. I'd concentrate on technique rather then distance. Practice makes permanent rather then perfect and if your killing yourself to do a certain program or distance you may be practicing a poor technique.
    It does take time and if your making progress I wouldn't be worried.

    I presume your getting lessons and not trying to learn on your own lifting your head to breath or worse?

    I often see people who do a lot of strength work expecting too much too soon forcing themselves to cover certain distances by dragging themselves through the water. Some will hold too much air in their lungs or take too big a breath each time or have very short strokes with a flat body position. Try to have a longer stroke rolling tour hips, torso and shoulders with your stroke and try to get used to breathing every three strokes and not holding your breath. Another thing that can tire you of the top of my head is putting too much effort into the kick, you need it to balance your stroke and keep your body position correct but it doesn't contribute an awful lot to your propulsion, if you need to kill yourself to prevent the legs sinking etc your doing it wrong.

    Getting tired very quickly is nearly always the breathing though - poor technique like lifting the head or not having breathed out when your head is turned, holding too much air in, not breathing often enough or taking too big a breath each go. Even when your technique is fair enough it can still be tiring if your not relaxed in the water but that will come with time -imagine jogging with half your muscles tensed up.

    Trust your (presuming you have one) teacher rather then what I or anyone on the internet who hasn't seen you swim says.

    Thanks for that :)

    Getting lessons 1-2x per week off a good coach and can already feel the benefit. The thing he keeps coming back to is exactly what you said - "you're not tired because you're unfit, its because of your breathing management".

    I'm not really looking for advice per se because I have someone I trust to tell me what to do, more of a sounding board to hear how other people have got on.

    One of the things I've learned over the last 10 years in powerlifting is that you can only learn technique when you're fresh, and what you practice the most is what you'll revert to under fatigue.

    I've absolutely no problem standing up mid length to reset and cop the f*ck on. I think anyone who's attained a decently high level in one thing should be able to take the lessons they've learned apply them across to a different field.

    I deffo think I have an advantage with regards to having the patience to practice technique over fatigue, and I appreciate how long it takes to get good at lifting things, so assume swimming will be the same.

    Just really interested to hear how others have progressed and what they've seen. For example I was chatting with a buddy the other day who was telling me about his mate who went from not being able to swim, to completing an ironman inside 12 months.

    I've no desire to do one... but to know in the not too distant future I could swim for even 10 minutes unbroken would be HUGE for me.


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    #9
    iAcesHigh
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭iAcesHigh


    Swimming through an Ironman race doesn't mean you're swimming good/smart - I went from not being able to swim from one end to other in a 25 meter long pool to doing an Ironman race within a bit less than 12 months, but my swimming wasn't something I would nearly describe as being good or smart :) As others mentioned, just keep on collecting miles, visit the pool 4 times a week/every second day, continue to work with somebody few times a month if you can and before you'll know it, you'll do few km per training and/or 500+ meter long splits ;) And don't forget to enjoy it! :)


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    #10
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    iAcesHigh wrote: »
    Swimming through an Ironman race doesn't mean you're swimming good/smart - I went from not being able to swim from one end to other in a 25 meter long pool to doing an Ironman race within a bit less than 12 months, but my swimming wasn't something I would nearly describe as being good or smart :) As others mentioned, just keep on collecting miles, visit the pool 4 times a week/every second day, continue to work with somebody few times a month if you can and before you'll know it, you'll do few km per training and/or 500+ meter long splits ;) And don't forget to enjoy it! :)

    Hey once I can swim confidently and without the ever present fear of drowning, that's my only goal :)

    That's cracking with your swim improvement - very encouraging. Thanks for sharing!

    Do you think if you could have practiced more you'd have improved faster?


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    #11
    iAcesHigh
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭iAcesHigh


    Hanley wrote: »
    Hey once I can swim confidently and without the ever present fear of drowning, that's my only goal :)

    That's cracking with your swim improvement - very encouraging. Thanks for sharing!

    Do you think if you could have practiced more you'd have improved faster?

    I would, but other disciplines would be worse than + since I went from not doing anything significant to doing an IM in a year it could have had different effect - maybe I would start hating the sport more and wouldn't come to love it as I do now. I think we all have "our rhythm" and I really think that to improve something to some decent level you should first and foremost enjoy doing it. That being said, I do think that with more practice/trainings one will improve faster as long as 1. one doesn't overtrain himself since I really think rest is equally important, 2. one doesn't overtrain in a sense that he puts so much stress to his body at once that the body reacts by getting hurt almost all the time (injuries) and 3. one trains smart (in swimming world trainer or a group, especially at the beginning, is reaaaally beneficial IMO)...


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    #12
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    iAcesHigh wrote: »
    I would, but other disciplines would be worse than + since I went from not doing anything significant to doing an IM in a year it could have had different effect - maybe I would start hating the sport more and wouldn't come to love it as I do now. I think we all have "our rhythm" and I really think that to improve something to some decent level you should first and foremost enjoy doing it. That being said, I do think that with more practice/trainings one will improve faster as long as 1. one doesn't overtrain himself since I really think rest is equally important, 2. one doesn't overtrain in a sense that he puts so much stress to his body at once that the body reacts by getting hurt almost all the time (injuries) and 3. one trains smart (in swimming world trainer or a group, especially at the beginning, is reaaaally beneficial IMO)...

    Excellent. Thank you.

    Luckily (I guess?) I'm just doing this to get better at swimming and be more water confident.

    I'll keep an eye out for overtraining/any lack of motivation - I've always noticed that when I'm riding the crest of a wave (wahey - water pun) and feel invincible, that's when I break down.

    Thank you :)


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    #13
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Good news everybody... I made it to 8 lengths unbroken.

    Kick board, pull buoy, crawl, backstroke x2

    Been told to switch to crawl / breast stroke now and up my unbroken yardage there.

    5x2 initially and then continue to push it on.

    Will probably intersperse with some backstroke lengths too.

    I'm definitely MORE confident now.

    Have had multiple instances where I've gotten into trouble in the pool / swallowed water and been able to just manage myself while continuing to swim, without having to stop like I would have before.


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    #14
    Birdsong
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Birdsong


    The thread post caught my eye, I have a running injury so I decided to use the time to perfect my swim. It is very slow but I do feel like a am getting somewhere. I have more or less mastered front crawl, my teacher told me I looked like a swimmer last week,😊😊. I want to be able to thread water, but can't quite get it. I'm back at square one on the breast stroke to.

    Sorry for hijacking the thread


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    #15
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Birdsong wrote: »
    I want to be able to thread water, but can't quite get it. I'm back at square one on the breast stroke to.

    It's a different motion when using sculling actions (Treading, Breast stroke) than in Crawl, fly and back. Those three strokes have a "catch" a point in the stroke where you fix your hand as a paddle and pull using the arm/shoulder muscles. Breast-stroke has less of a catch as your hand is changing direction more often and less consistently as you use your pecs back and shoulders to pull through the stroke.


    Try this:
    standing in the water, put your hand straight in front of you (underwater, arm outstretched) moving it from side to side, angle the hand at 45 degrees to the horizontal (thumb up moving towards your centre, thumb down moving away) keep the fingers and wrist straight but relaxed, you will feel an upward force from the water on your hand. That is the thrust force your arms generate when treading. now try it with both arms. Then gradually bring your hands closer to your chest by bending your elbows and allowing your uppper arms to out to your sides, keeping the same motion and range of motion, ensure your entire arm and hand stays underwater. try it tucking your knees up in slightly deeper water to see if you can keep yourself up with just your arms. (depends on body mass and size, bigger humans can do it easily, slimmer less built people struggle). You can do pretty much any leg action to tread water, usually breast-stroke kick is used, but egg beater, flutter and fly kick can all be used reasonably effectively in a pinch. Egg beater is my preferred, it is essentially a breast-stroke kick, but with the legs alternating rather than synchronizing. flutter (crawl) kick has the draw-back of having the opposite effect if the kick is too small, a larger kick (similar to side-stroke) works better, I would only use a fly kick if I had cramping or there was something snagging my feet.

    Breast-stroke takes a long time to master and is quite hard on the knees hips and back (due to lateral pressure on knees and snapping motion in lower back) so if you are recovering from injury I would give it a wide berth.

    Fair play for keeping the activity levels up. enjoy the swimming !


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    #16
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Basically a month later, and it's all making sense.

    Did a sesh of 12+ unbroken length(lost count) before going on holidays.

    The hotels we've been staying in have 2.2m deep ends so plenty of practice treading and diving. Even went stand up paddle boarding in the sea a few days ago (had a bouncy aid on, but still...)

    Having the absolute LOLs jumping off sh*t too. So glad I invested the time and effort in it.

    14088560_10154286613230115_3640166155553572798_n.jpg?oh=d148f73f01be0e819dc306ca11583140&oe=585A30F7


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    #17
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    You're nearly there!

    http://thefw.com/olympic-diving-funny-faces/


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    #18
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Further updates...

    Snorkeled on holidays - felt like I coulda stayed in the water for as long as I wanted to. Even swam over come cliffs in the sea where I couldn't see the bottom with no fear :)

    This morning, third pool session since I got back and I swum 125m unbroken on the crawl.

    Swim coach has said the next goal is 250m and then start training for an open water swim next year. Fun times.


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    #19
    shakencat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭shakencat


    fair play.


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    #20
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Cool thread H.

    I thought I could always swim, thought ~ until this year.

    I've always been water confident and don't remember a time when I couldn't swim a few lengths breast stroke and other stuff.

    Things changed when this Feb I suffered a grade III pec tear which was mismanaged by my doctor, despite classic pec tear brusing down my arm and chest my doctor insisted I had a rotator cuff tear!!. No matter how many times I told him it wasn't a rotator cuff I was ignored.

    Long story short and skipping lots of detail.

    I was eventually diagnosed with a complete tear of my left lower pec, but too late to operate for a successful recovery (I have a brilliant physio now).

    I'm sure you're familiar with a pec tear H, its a rare but serious injury.

    So I hit rehab, as part of that rehab I was told to swim ~ to my horror I immediately sank to my left as my arm/chest were barely working.. As an example, prior to the pec tear my dumbell press was 55's for easy reps, I could dip all day etc etc. On my assessment with my now physio that DB press was at 3kgs for 3 reps!!.

    So to the swimming.. I gradually built up my breast stroke from two or three strokes (seriously) to rapid progress up to 30 lengths of the pool before I decided what I really admired in other swimmers but which I couldn't do comfortably was the crawl.

    When I started to learn to crawl I had the guidance of a defence forces swimming instructor who was patient, and brilliant.. Everything was techique ~ isn't it always in sport!.

    My lengths started to improve but whenever I got into difficulty it was down to speed over proper technique.

    Roll on today.

    I'm still in the rehab phase of the pec tear, but doing brilliant. Despite being initially told I may be out of Judo competition for 18 months I took a Gold and Silver in this years International Irish Masters and I'm swimming without instruction for up to 40 minutes.. I've tried counting the lengths but I just can't be bothered anymore.

    Apart from the initial DF instruction the majority of my learning has been via youtube instructionals.. Now I have the patience to slow things down, when I swallow some water I no longer panic and I swim at a rate in which I can think about the instructionals I've viewed and tried to put the techniques I've viewed into practice.

    I'm loving the progress I've made. I'm in the pool almost daily and have felt confident enough to move into the swimming lanes even at the busiest times.

    I'm loving being able to finally front crawl without panic. I also feel the controlled breeding has helped my Judo and BJJ training and competition.

    But man am I tired and hungry after a swim!.. Why is thing?.. At weight training and/or intense Judo or BJJ training its the next day when my body is yelling for food but with swimming its almost immediately!.


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    #21
    shakencat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭shakencat


    Ellie Plump Genie wrote: »
    Cool thread H.

    I thought I could always swim, thought ~ until this year.

    I've always been water confident and don't remember a time when I couldn't swim a few lengths breast stroke and other stuff.

    Things changed when this Feb I suffered a grade III pec tear which was mismanaged by my doctor, despite classic pec tear brusing down my arm and chest my doctor insisted I had a rotator cuff tear!!. No matter how many times I told him it wasn't a rotator cuff I was ignored.

    Long story short and skipping lots of detail.

    I was eventually diagnosed with a complete tear of my left lower pec, but too late to operate for a successful recovery (I have a brilliant physio now).

    I'm sure you're familiar with a pec tear H, its a rare but serious injury.

    So I hit rehab, as part of that rehab I was told to swim ~ to my horror I immediately sank to my left as my arm/chest were barely working.. As an example, prior to the pec tear my dumbell press was 55's for easy reps, I could dip all day etc etc. On my assessment with my now physio that DB press was at 3kgs for 3 reps!!.

    So to the swimming.. I gradually built up my breast stroke from two or three strokes (seriously) to rapid progress up to 30 lengths of the pool before I decided what I really admired in other swimmers but which I couldn't do comfortably was the crawl.

    When I started to learn to crawl I had the guidance of a defence forces swimming instructor who was patient, and brilliant.. Everything was techique ~ isn't it always in sport!.

    My lengths started to improve but whenever I got into difficulty it was down to speed over proper technique.

    Roll on today.

    I'm still in the rehab phase of the pec tear, but doing brilliant. Despite being initially told I may be out of Judo competition for 18 months I took a Gold and Silver in this years International Irish Masters and I'm swimming without instruction for up to 40 minutes.. I've tried counting the lengths but I just can't be bothered anymore.

    Apart from the initial DF instruction the majority of my learning has been via youtube instructionals.. Now I have the patience to slow things down, when I swallow some water I no longer panic and I swim at a rate in which I can think about the instructionals I've viewed and tried to put the techniques I've viewed into practice.

    I'm loving the progress I've made. I'm in the pool almost daily and have felt confident enough to move into the swimming lanes even at the busiest times.

    I'm loving being able to finally front crawl without panic. I also feel the controlled breeding has helped my Judo and BJJ training and competition.

    But man am I tired and hungry after a swim!.. Why is thing?.. At weight training and/or intense Judo or BJJ training its the next day when my body is yelling for food but with swimming its almost immediately!.



    When swimming your body is trying to regulate your body heat within the water, meaning its working a lot harder, using more energy, burning more calories to regulate body temp! the colder the water, the more energy you use to sustain a healthy level of body heat.

    Hence the tiredness and starvation mode haha!


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