Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 1:31pm

So basically the school has done all they can in the face of a tragedy, and yet people on here including yourself are implying that they are covering something up and saying they are being defensive.

gozunda · 13-03-2019 1:39pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

So basically the school has done all they can in the face of a tragedy, and yet people on here including yourself are implying that they are covering something up and saying they are being defensive.

Nope. I have not implied that. Generalise much?

However so far you've implied that Clodaghs family have got it wrong, the counsellor got it wrong and a whole bunch of posters here have got everything wrong.

But the schools statement is top tiddley pop even though the Gardai have indicated that
they cannot categorically know everything Alan Hawe was accessing - and this fact has effectively been steamrolled over in the statement. Hey ok so ...

Calypso Realm · 13-03-2019 3:19pm

What struck me when I read the latest news was why didn't the school come forward before now (even on an informal basis to the family) with this information, since it appears to be of a such a definitive nature?

They certainly had reason enough to given the circumstances which lead to this tragic incident appeared to point in the direction of prior events at the school.

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 3:24pm

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. I have not implied that. Generalise much?

However so far you've implied that Clodaghs family have got it wrong, the counsellor got it wrong and a whole bunch of posters here have got everything wrong.

But the schools statement is top tiddley pop even though the Gardai have indicated that
they cannot categorically know everything Alan Hawe was accessing - and this fact has effectively been steamrolled over in the statement. Hey ok so ...

No, I didn't say the counsellor got it wrong, I said Alan Hawe wouldn't be the first person to lie to his counselor. I suggested Alan was lying. I don't think the family is lying either, but I am wondering where they are getting this information from.

And yes, I do think a lot of posters here who are speculating wildly about what happened are probably getting it wrong.

As regards implying the school did something wrong, your words:

gozunda wrote: »

The schools statement sounds rather defensive imo especially considering that the gardai already suspect he was using a private browser to view the material online...

PR job on behalf of the school?

TCM · 13-03-2019 3:27pm

KikiLaRue wrote:

And yes, I do think a lot of posters here who are speculating wildly about what happened are probably getting it wrong.

What they arn't getting wrong here is that the piece of filth "Alan" butcheted and murdered four people.

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 3:31pm

TCM wrote: »

What they arn't getting wrong here is that the piece of filth "Alan" butcheted and murdered four people.

I don't think anyone is disputing that?

gozunda · 13-03-2019 3:43pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

No, I didn't say the counsellor got it wrong, I said Alan Hawe wouldn't be the first person to lie to his counselor. I suggested Alan was lying. I don't think the family is lying either, but I am wondering where they are getting this information from.

This is your comment: it stands for itself that you believe no one else.

KikiLaRue wrote: »

It's possible that the school has it right, and the family has it wrong. Where are they getting their information? If it's a counsellor's notes, he wouldn't be the first person to lie to a counsellor about what was on his mind.

KikiLaRue wrote:

And yes, I do think a lot of posters here who are speculating wildly about what happened are probably getting it wrong.

I dont care what posters are saying or whether you think they are 'wrong' they've got fek all to with my comment other than you dragging them in at every opportunity. Their comments stand on their own merits.

KikiLaRue wrote:

As regards implying the school did something wrong, your words:

Btw it's not the 'school's which issued that statement - it was the board of management

My comment is clear - it 'implies' nothing. And unless you believe PR is 'wrong' - then that's a swing and a miss. You've said yourself they are being defensive btw! It stands that the statement steamrolls over the fact they do not know what all Alan Hawe was viewing based on what the Gardai have said.

I think you are simply determined to have an argument over nothing. Work away but leave my comments out of your generalisations. Thanks.

freshpopcorn · 13-03-2019 3:45pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

And yes, I do think a lot of posters here who are speculating wildly about what happened are probably getting it wrong.

As regards implying the school did something wrong, your words:

The only issue I've seen people have with the schools statement is the way they say it's categorically nothing to do with the school.
They of course can say that he wasn't under investigation and they weren't aware of any incident taking place and there was nothing accessed on his laptop but How can they say it's categorically nothing to do with the school and did not happen on school premises?
They don't know if an incident went unreported.

I think I've always said in this thread that I'd find it odd if he was under investigation and I don't think any incident was reported.

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 3:46pm

gozunda wrote: »

This is your comment: it stands for itself that you believe no one else.

I dont care what posters are saying or whether you think they are 'wrong' they've got fek all to with my comment other than you dragging them in at every opportunity. Their comments stand on their own merits.

Btw it's not the 'school's which issued that statement - it was the board of management

My comment is clear - it 'implies' nothing. And unless you believe PR is 'wrong' - then that's a swing and a miss. It stands that the statement steamrolls over the fact they do not know what all Alan Hawe was viewing.

I think you are simply determined to have an argument over nothing. Work away but leave my comments out of your generalisations. Thanks.

Uhm, calling something a 'PR job' very clearly implies a cover up of some kind. If you've changed your mind since, that's fine.

As for being determined to have an argument, that's certainly the pot calling the kettle African American.

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 3:48pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The only issue I've seen people have with the schools statement is the way they say it's categorically nothing to do with the school.
They of course can say that he wasn't under investigation and they weren't aware of any incident taking place and there was nothing accessed on his laptop but How can they say it's categorically nothing to do with the school and did not happen on school premises?
They don't know if an incident went unreported.

I think I've always said in this thread that I'd find it odd if he was under investigation and I don't think any incident was reported.

I don't think the school can be expected to account for unknowable unknowns, such as an unreported incident, or what he was accessing from his phone on their grounds.

I don't blame them at all for putting some distance between themselves and a mass murder they had no involvement with.

gozunda · 13-03-2019 3:53pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Uhm, calling something a 'PR job' very clearly implies a cover up of some kind. If you've changed your mind since, that's fine.As for being determined to have an argument, that's certainly the pot calling the kettle African American.

Nope wrong again ...

Take a look the comment again- that is a question with a question mark !

And is it a 'PR' job? because they cannot categorically know what he was accessing as per the gardai statement, private browsing etc - this has effectively been steamrolled. Do You Understand?

You've claimed you are right and everyone else is wrong btw. I would roll my eyes at your not witty witticism. But I couldn't be bothered tbh.

freshpopcorn · 13-03-2019 3:58pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I don't think the school can be expected to account for unknowable unknowns, such as an unreported incident, or what he was accessing from his phone on their grounds.

I don't blame them at all for putting some distance between themselves and a mass murder they had no involvement with.

I totally understand what you are saying.
However it this matter was investigated further or new information comes to light on the matter.
Them stating it's categorically nothing to do with the school may cause issues for them in the future.
They should have being clearly in there statement in my opinion regarding his phone/etc for there own sake.

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 3:59pm

gozunda wrote: »

Nope wrong again lol...

A 'PR' job because they cannot categorically know what he was accessing as per the gardai statement and - this has effectively been steamrolled. Do You Understand?

You've claimed you are right and everyone else is wrong btw. I would roll my eyes at your not witty witticism. But I couldn't be bothered tbh.

Actually, what I said is that I don't think wild speculation is helpful. And I stand by that fully.

Making up stories about what might have happened, how the school might have been involved, what Hawe may have been thinking, why he might have done it - none of it is helpful and I'd argue it's very unhelpful to a community that is both mourning and trying to move past a tragedy.

I haven't said anyone is wrong, because you can't really be wrong when you're speculating, by it's nature it's an act of imagination. So you're free to think whatever you'd like.

I'd prefer to get the facts from an investigation, personally, but you do you boo.

riffmongous · 13-03-2019 4:00pm

SoundsRight wrote: »

The school look to be in the clear. Gardai say he wasn't looking anything criminal, but would be interesting to see what he was looking at. We already know he was into some pretty depraved stuff.

Meh, all porn is depraved to some people, particularly the highly religious and conservative they would have been associating with in a small rural community

gozunda · 13-03-2019 4:06pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Actually, what I said is that I don't think wild speculation is helpful. And I stand by that fully.
Making up stories about what might have happened, how the school might have been involved, what Hawe may have been thinking, why he might have done it - none of it is helpful and I'd argue it's very unhelpful to a community that is both mourning and trying to move past a tragedy.I haven't said anyone is wrong, because you can't really be wrong when you're speculating, by it's nature it's an act of imagination. So you're free to think whatever you'd like.I'd prefer to get the facts from an investigation, personally, but you do you boo.

KikiLaRue wrote:

It's possible that the school has it right, and the family has it wrong. Where are they getting their information? If it's a counsellor's notes, he wouldn't be the first person to lie to a counsellor about what was on his mind.

KikiLaRue wrote:

And yes, I do think a lot of posters here who are speculating wildly about what happened are probably getting it wrong.

:rolleyes:

KikiLaRue · 13-03-2019 4:10pm

gozunda wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Important words "It's possible" - I'm not making any assumptions.

Do you have anything meaningful to respond to the points I'm making, or is a rolled eyes emoji and snipes at me all you've got to contribute?

Muahahaha · 13-03-2019 4:17pm

gozunda wrote: »

Clodagh had already talked to her mother about Hawes use of pornography. That he was attending counciling for that was also referred to.

The schools statement sounds rather defensive imo especially considering that the gardai already suspect he was using a private browser to view the material online...

PR job on behalf of the school?

It certainly sounds like it could be a PR job to me. There is no way the school can categorically rule out that he was watching porn at school be it via his phone or laptop using a private browser. Yet in their statement they categorically ruled it out, they cannot possibily know this information for sure yet they are trying to come across as cock sure about it. Thats why the school is now being questioned, they are making claims they cannot back up.

The Coll family have been told that 97% of his porn viewing happened on a laptop at school. This seems to be information coming from the Gardai and their foresnsic examination of the laptop, either formally or off the record. The Coll family have been told the complete opposite to what the school statement is now claiming.

There is also the possibility that he got caught viewing porn in the local GAA club where he was treasurer. But not withstanding that the school statement is still completely at odds with what the Coll family have released they know about his actions in the lead up to the murders. So if this is a PR stunt then it will unravel in time.

gozunda · 13-03-2019 4:30pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Meh, all porn is depraved to some people, particularly the highly religious and conservative they would have been associating with in a small rural community

I would broadly agree. However if what he was watching was illegal or harmful content coupled with his job as a teacher - would that be game changer?

Afollower · 13-03-2019 4:45pm

I didn't see the Claire Byrne show but I've read the transcripts and my heart goes out to the family of Clodagh Hawe.

I would also like to say that I hope the Gardai and other first responders in this case were adequately looked after in the aftermath of the horrific scene they must have witnessed and that they have received counselling etc.

nice_guy80 · 13-03-2019 6:05pm

If viewing a bit of porn was so catastrophic then half of the young males of Ireland would probably be in trouble

The fact is, Alan Hawe was a sociopath and planned and carried out the murder of his wife and 3 children with ruthless efficiency and not one iota of thought for them or anyone else.

I doubt if anyone could have prevented this

freshpopcorn · 13-03-2019 6:22pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

If viewing a bit of porn was so catastrophic then half of the young males of Ireland would probably be in trouble

The fact is, Alan Hawe was a sociopath and planned and carried out the murder of his wife and 3 children with ruthless efficiency and not one iota of thought for them or anyone else.

I doubt if anyone could have prevented this

Personally I have no issue with pornography(legal) and I don't think most people have. Some people have an issue with any porn.
The issue with this case was it was alleged it happened on school premises. I do understand why some parents may have issues with this.

Regarding could anybody have prevented this. I don't really know. I do think it may have highlighted how a partner can be very controlling towards family members and it may make people aware of there own situation and people around them.

gozunda · 13-03-2019 8:39pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Personally I have no issue with pornography(legal) and I don't think most people have. Some people have an issue with any porn.
The issue with this case was it was alleged it happened on school premises. I do understand why some parents may have issues with this.

Regarding could anybody have prevented this. I don't really know. I do think it may have highlighted how a partner can be very controlling towards family members and it may make people aware of there own situation and people around them.

The issue of high functioning psychopaths/ sociopaths may be relevant here. In my own experience I have encountered at least one individual who like Alan Hawe held a socially important job in a locality and was seen by at least some as a pillar of the community. I don't necessarily believe that these type of personalities need to have a psychotic episode to become toxic.

The thing I have found is that superficially at least - they are charming and held up by many as the epitome of the 'good guy'. Underneath they are a danger to everyone within their reach. Not all resort to murder but there are many who have no morals with regard to others lives.

AndrewJRenko · 13-03-2019 11:21pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

It certainly sounds like it could be a PR job to me. There is no way the school can categorically rule out that he was watching porn at school be it via his phone or laptop using a private browser. Yet in their statement they categorically ruled it out, they cannot possibily know this information for sure yet they are trying to come across as cock sure about it. Thats why the school is now being questioned, they are making claims they cannot back up.

They've stated that's what the Gardai told them. Are you saying the school now is lying about what the Gardai said?

Muahahaha wrote: »

The Coll family have been told that 97% of his porn viewing happened on a laptop at school. This seems to be information coming from the Gardai and their foresnsic examination of the laptop, either formally or off the record.

What's your source for this please?

Muahahaha · 14-03-2019 11:37pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They've stated that's what the Gardai told them. Are you saying the school now is lying about what the Gardai said?

The Gardai only said that there was nothing illegal in his use of the computer. They never categorically stated that he wasn't watching porn, only the school has done that. Now unless the school has CCTV in every single corner of the building (which they don't) then how can they possibly claim to know that he never accessed porn on school grounds? The school is trying to claim something that they cannot possibly know with any degree of certainity.

What's your source for this please?

In today's article, Ms Connolly discloses that counselling notes reveal that Alan Hawe was "frequently viewing pornography, suffered regular urges to masturbate and was experimenting with cross dressing".

She reveals that computer forensics established that 97pc of the pornography he viewed was on a laptop at his work in Castlerahan school: "In all likelihood it would seem if he stated he was caught red-handed and 'it was all going to blow up', the most likely place was the school."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/hawe-seen-driving-car-after-family-were-murdered-jacqueline-connollys-powerful-account-of-tragedy-37872187.html

So on the one hand we have Jacqueline Connolly saying that the Gardai computer foresnics investigation revealed that 97% of the porn he viewed was on the school laptop that we know he never brought home. And on the other hand the statement of the school categorically states that he never viewed porn on the school grounds. The two versions of the same story do not add up, they directly contradict each other.

So who to believe here? The Gardai did a forensic investigation whereas the school have made a claim that they cannot possibly back up. I don't know what is going on here but things certainly do not add up, the schools statement has only served to muddy the waters and you can't blame people for theorising that was their very intention.

oneilla · 15-03-2019 6:17am

Deleted User wrote: »

This different case, in the news today, just shows how difficult it is to answer the question "why" when it comes to violent attacks, attempted murder and murder - in this particular case, thankfully the victim didn't die, but was severely injured.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/laura-kenna-37-found-guilty-of-attempting-to-murder-woman-walking-home-from-work-37880802.html

So you have this, on behalf of the defence:

"A consultant psychiatrist engaged by the defence testified that the accused was suffering from a mental disorder at the time, and so was entitled to the special defence of not guilty by reason of insanity.

Dr Stephen Monks of the Central Mental Hospital (CMH) told the jury that she was suffering from schizoaffective disorder, a chronic mental illness related to schizophrenia".

And this on behalf of the prosecution:

"However, a consultant psychiatrist engaged by the State disagreed. Professor Harry Kennedy, also of the CMH, testified that she was not delusional at the time, but carried out the attack in anger and out of a ‘sense of entitlement’; she told gardai she’d needed money.

Prof Kennedy said her attack would not come under the definition of insanity. He said that she possessed ‘callous’ and ‘unemotional’ personality traits and had the ability to ‘fabricate for her own interests’."

I'm just posting this to show the level of complexity and difficulty involved in answering the question "why did this happen?"- difficult enough to determine the mind of the person when they're still alive and able to stand trial- so much more difficult when the person is no longer around for some form of psychiatric assessment.

I hope the family get some form of answer. I think one of the few routes is maybe to have some form of consultation with an experienced Psychiatrist such as the people who were consulted in the above trial- maybe these people can at least start to explain to them, how someone "might" do such a thing- I know, not closure by any means but may provide some comfort.

I don't know about that, there was once a definition of psychopath given by a psychiatrist in court that was so broad ranging it could have applied to most of the population.

juno10353 · 16-03-2019 6:16pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

The Gardai only said that there was nothing illegal in his use of the computer. They never categorically stated

So on the one hand we have Jacqueline Connolly saying that the Gardai computer foresnics investigation revealed that 97% of the porn he viewed was on the school laptop that we know he never brought home. And on the other hand the statement of the school categorically states that he never viewed porn on the school grounds. The two versions of the same story do not add up, they directly contradict each other.

I read that school stated that porn was not viewed in school time, school hours, they did not state that porn was never viewed on school property.

Bobtheman · 16-03-2019 7:54pm

I doubt the family have a written statement from Garda. They now have one from school.

Calypso Realm · 17-03-2019 3:53pm

juno10353 wrote: »

I read that school stated that porn was not viewed in school time, school hours, they did not state that porn was never viewed on school property

In this section of the statement, they did.

“Whilst there has been reference to Mr Hawe being caught ‘red-handed’ in relation to some of his activities, we can state categorically that this has absolutely nothing to do with this school and did not happen on school premises.”

Actually what I find interesting, by its very omission, is the lack of any reference, be it denial or otherwise to the 'conflict with a colleague' Alan Hawe spoke about. Personally I can't see why he'd say this, if it weren't true. Of course it may have been something very minor....which, like some of the other issues (younger years) he mentioned, did, nonetheless, cause him some distress.

juno10353 · 19-03-2019 1:48am

Calypso Realm wrote: »

In this section of the statement, they did.

“Whilst there has been reference to Mr Hawe being caught ‘red-handed’ in relation to some of his activities, we can state categorically that this has absolutely nothing to do with this school and did not happen on school premises.”

The school stated he was not watching porn during school hours. They also state that he was not caught 'red handed' on school grounds. They at no time stated that he was not watching porn on school grounds outside of school hours, on school computer

Bobtheman · 20-03-2019 9:34pm

Bottom line is the guards have yet to officially confirm anything about accessing porn. They might or might not. Until something is written down Id be wary of making definitive statements based on unofficial conversations.

As to rows with colleagues-lots of things occur in workplaces that are rows but never get to formal complaints.

I have a feeling that no real smoking gun will be found-it would be out there by now with the media interest. It seems to me that a man with a mental health issue made a very evil choice. He still had free will. No evidence that he had a psychotic episode or that he was facing anything that merited his own death let alone four innocents.

I dont think this media focus on it is doing that much good. People copy unfortunately. Though, I appreciate that the family felt they had to turn to the media.

Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

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