Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Gaelic surnames that could be Norse

  • 02-07-2019 2:28pm
    #1
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭


    I've read in some articles and heard from various people that surnames like Foley, Murphy etc relating to 'sea-raiders', 'sea-warriors' etc could actually be of Viking origin. Is there any evidence to back this up?


Comments

  • #2
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    It is also said that Galvin is a viking name.


  • #3
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    tabbey wrote: »
    It is also said that Galvin is a viking name.

    It seems a bit of a coincidence that the names are so prominent in former coastal Viking counties.


  • #4
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Consult The Surnames of Ireland by MacLysaght - the definitive source.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #5
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Consult The Surnames of Ireland by MacLysaght - the definitive source.
    Hmmm. He's good, but not always correct. ;)

    Another Norse one there is a question mark/ debate over is Mac Abhlaoibh/Mac Olave/McAulliffe


  • #6
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Hmmm. He's good, but not always correct. ;)

    Really? I hadn't heard that before.
    Is there a source that now supersedes it or has that book yet to be written?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    If the sea-faring surnames aren't Norse then could they be the sea people that sacked Egypt I wonder?


  • #8
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Hmmm. He's good, but not always correct. ;)

    Another Norse one there is a question mark/ debate over is Mac Abhlaoibh/Mac Olave/McAulliffe

    Yep, bring on the evidence for this statement, Pedro!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #9
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Yep, bring on the evidence for this statement, Pedro!
    He was very wrong on my own surname and when contacted about it did have the good grace to correct the entry for subsequent reprints (albeit with some qualification). I also dislike and do not agree with much of what he did to Irish heraldry, particularly his views on ‘family crests’. (I’ll send you a pm about my surname.)
    Seanachai wrote: »
    If the sea-faring surnames aren't Norse then could they be the sea people that sacked Egypt I wonder?
    The sea people of Inbher Sceine? That’s going down the route of General Vallency, he who tried to make out that Staigue Fort in South Kerry was a Phoenician amphitheatre and further proof for his favourite theory of the colonization of Ireland by the Phoenicians.


  • #10
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    He was very wrong on my own surname and when contacted about it did have the good grace to correct the entry for subsequent reprints (albeit with some qualification). I also dislike and do not agree with much of what he did to Irish heraldry, particularly his views on ‘family crests’. (I’ll send you a pm about my surname.)

    The sea people of Inbher Sceine? That’s going down the route of General Vallency, he who tried to make out that Staigue Fort in South Kerry was a Phoenician amphitheatre and further proof for his favourite theory of the colonization of Ireland by the Phoenicians.

    There are linguistic connections to that part of the world, there are also some pretty dark-featured Irish people with no history of recent Mediterranean mixture in their families. The Spanish Armada theory has been debunked so the Irish being part Phoenician doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.


  • #11
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I agree totally about the heraldry stuff. When I was at UCD, Sean Murphy indicated the DeValera leaned on him quite a bit there.
    I maintain that coats of arms have no place in a Republic, but I don't have a problem with families who already were granted arms continuing to use them.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Advertisement
  • #12
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Seanachai wrote: »
    There are linguistic connections to that part of the world, there are also some pretty dark-featured Irish people with no history of recent Mediterranean mixture in their families. The Spanish Armada theory has been debunked so the Irish being part Phoenician doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.
    I agree that there are many loan words in Irish and English that emanate from Old Norse; also, all of us come out of Africa so there is bound to be a genetic connection(U5b?) with the Phoenicians plus the common link of PIE languages. Dubhthach's territory, best left to him!
    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I agree totally about the heraldry stuff. When I was at UCD, Sean Murphy indicated the DeValera leaned on him quite a bit there.
    I maintain that coats of arms have no place in a Republic, but I don't have a problem with families who already were granted arms continuing to use them.
    Not sure about Dev – maybe Lemass? My recollection is hearing that the pressure emanated from the Irish Tourist Board?
    I also take issue with the ‘bold’ above – arms are personal, they do not belong to a family, which is my big issue with McLysaght - I've no major argument with his family name work. Arms are granted to an individual and are “real property,” i.e. they belong to that individual, cannot be appropriated by another and are governed by the same laws as taking somebody’s car and using it. (I’m ignoring cadency and differencing as it is irrelevant in this case.) The Scrope-v-Grosvenor case is the reference. The granting of Arms has nothing to do with nobility, as Arms can be granted to companies, guilds, clubs, etc. Even the GAA has its Arms!
    As for republics, many of them hand out both arms and honours. Although there is no state role in granting arms, French law recognises them as real property. France however grants ‘honours’, e.g. the gradations of the Legion d’Honneur – Officier and Chevalier. In Ireland Article 40.2.1 of our Constitution prohibits the conferral of a title of nobility by the State, and Article 40.2.2 prohibits acceptance by any citizen of any title of nobility or honour "without the prior approval of the Government” which is why citizens (if they remain citizens) such as Sir Bob Geldoff had to ask permission to accept (the Govt here is sounded out through diplomatic channels before the actual honour is conferred.) Sir Tony O’Reilly was born before the 1947 cut-off date so I cannot recall if it was necessary for him to request permission.

    I don’t see any incompatibility between the status of a Republic and granting arms – they can be purchased by anybody, it’s a question of cash. IMO it also is a sign of national maturity to accept and co-exist with ‘relics of a colonial past’. I’d hate to see heraldic emblems being torn down by the zealots; they, like old estate walls and follies are part of our heritage and serve several purposes.


  • #13
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    To clarify what I meant by family: an individual or particular family gains arms and those arms can be used by his or her descendants. I don't mean anyone with that surname.

    MacLysaght and DeV were friends - the former lived in Clare and he was appointed Chief Herald in 1943 (during DeValera's tenure) and this lasted until 1954. Lemass didn't take office as Taoiseach until 1959.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #14
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    To clarify what I meant by family: an individual or particular family gains arms and those arms can be used by his or her descendants. I don't mean anyone with that surname.

    MacLysaght and DeV were friends - the former lived in Clare and he was appointed Chief Herald in 1943 (during DeValera's tenure) and this lasted until 1954. Lemass didn't take office as Taoiseach until 1959.


    Will respond later - I'm entertaining yanks who are celebrating what I refer to as their 'first civil war'.


  • #15
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    [
    pinkypinky wrote: »
    MacLysaght and DeV were friends - the former lived in Clare and he was appointed Chief Herald in 1943 (during DeValera's tenure) and this lasted until 1954. Lemass didn't take office as Taoiseach until 1959.
    I don't doubt that Dev and McLysaght knew each other. Also, McLysaght’s family had a long connection with Clare, he wrote somewhere (possibly in ‘Irish Life in the Sixteenth Century’?) about one of his surname obtaining land along the Shannon in the six(?)-mile belt during the 1650’s. Perhaps it was pressure from Dev, but Lemass was Minister for Supplies during WW2; that effectively was the Department of Industry and Commerce, which had oversight of the Irish Tourist Board, established by the Tourist Traffic Act in 1939.
    pinkypinky wrote: »
    To clarify what I meant by family: an individual or particular family gains arms and those arms can be used by his or her descendants. I don't mean anyone with that surname.
    That is not fully correct either. I agree armorial bearings are hereditary and can be borne and used by the descendants in the legitimate male line of the person to whom the Arms were originally granted or confirmed. BUT that right must be established by proving descent from that specific armigerous ancestor. Furthermore, the Arms should be differenced each generation for younger sons by marks of cadency, i.e. slight changes depending on the position of the son in the family, although that has been and today is largely ignored.
    Several of my surname have Arms by inheritance, all of them with common features but I cannot just ‘pick’ one of them and assert it as mine; I must prove which line I descend from before I can claim a right to bear those specific Arms. Daughters can incorporate arms (and for their own, use a lozenge rather than a shield) but grandchildren in the female line of an armiger may not use his arms or crest but may display his Badge, which if requested is included with a Grant of Arms.

    What McLysaght did IMO was to take that the Badge and/or the Crest and use it/them as the basis for a ‘makey-uppy’ ‘Family Coat of Arms’. In heraldry the Crest forms part of the blazon, it cannot exist on its own and generally remains the same across a family name. However, the Badge may be used by those who want to show allegiance to the entity or the individual to whom it belongs. Golf or yacht club ties are an example.

    In doing his work McLysaght did a disservice to heraldry, he should have called them ‘Family Badges’ not ‘Arms’. It was the commencement of sloppy work in the Chief Herald’s office, culminating in the farce of the McCarthy Mór affair, for the unmasking of which your above-mentioned Sean Murphy deserves our eternal gratitude!


  • #16
    LoughNeagh2017
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭LoughNeagh2017


    Gallagher is said to be a Viking name even though it is a stereotypical Irish name. I didn't get any Scandinavian links in my ancestry tests, I don't know if I should believe that or not, I am a dark haired short man though.


  • #17
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »
    Gallagher is said to be a Viking name
    By whom?

    Gallchobhair (sp?) was a king of Ireland in the seventh century, so the sept name predates the Vikings.


  • #18
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »
    Gallagher is said to be a Viking name even though it is a stereotypical Irish name. I didn't get any Scandinavian links in my ancestry tests, I don't know if I should believe that or not, I am a dark haired short man though.

    Some Vikings at least may have left their genetics - but not necessarily their names in the many incursions into the country. Certainly some arrived and decided to settle but not all. My own genetics for that region showed at about 1% which probably equated to just one individual. Also the Vikings who arrived / invaded Ireland were from a different Scandavian origin than those that invaded England afaik. Some Scandavian genetics may have been carried here by other later groups...


  • #19
    LoughNeagh2017
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭LoughNeagh2017


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    By whom?

    Gallchobhair (sp?) was a king of Ireland in the seventh century, so the sept name predates the Vikings.

    On some sites it says the name means "foreign help" or something along those lines.


  • #20
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    gozunda wrote: »
    Some Vikings at least may have left their genetics - but not necessarily their names in the many incursions into the country. Certainly some arrived and decided to settle but not all. My own genetics for that region showed at about 1% which probably equated to just one individual. Also the Vikings who arrived / invaded Ireland were from a different Scandavian origin than those that invaded England afaik. Some Scandavian genetics may have been carried here by other later groups...

    We got what are now the Norwegians apparently, the Danish more so in Britain. This guy is a bit of a dose but he's good and breaking down genetic news.



  • #21
    sabrewolfe
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭sabrewolfe


    Isnt the surname MacLochlann supposed to indicate someone of viking origin? Mac= son of, loch=lake, lan=land.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Phileas Frog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Phileas Frog


    LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »
    On some sites it says the name means "foreign help" or something along those lines.

    Not from the Galloglaigh ?


  • #23
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »
    Gallagher is said to be a Viking name even though it is a stereotypical Irish name. I didn't get any Scandinavian links in my ancestry tests, I don't know if I should believe that or not, I am a dark haired short man though.
    LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »
    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    By whom?

    Gallchobhair (sp?) was a king of Ireland in the seventh century, so the sept name predates the Vikings.

    On some sites it says the name means "foreign help" or something along those lines.

    Means either foreign help or foregn “lover”, may be viking related in that early Gallaghers may have made deails with vikings hence the lover part. It is a UiNiall surname so definitely not viking related.


  • #24
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Phileas Frog wrote: »
    Not from the Galloglaigh ?

    Names like Sweeney, McCabe and McDonnell (and possible Rogers/McGrory) are from gallowglasses, so technically they are of Norse descent.


Advertisement