Future of beef production in Ireland.

lalababa · 19-07-2019 12:51pm

Ok this thread has gone a bit off topic,(no thanks to the op's catch all heading), back to talking about extensive systems.

Water John · 19-07-2019 1:17pm

Organic farmer has to buy organic stock. It isn't rock up to the mart or you're dairy neighbour for calves.
Feed no meal unless last 10/12 weeks of finishing or grow your own. Only some peoples land will be suitable for that. A crimped crop works out at about €160/t.
An alternative is grass/clover mix, esp for silage. White clover can fix 100kg/Ha, Red clover 200kg/ha. One way of improving clover in the sward is feed it to sheep. Tip, esp for Wrangler.
So remove meal and bag fertiliser if you are running a low stocking system.
No doubt all future schemes incl BPS, will carry a significant environmental aspect.

Know it's an old hobby horse of mine but if the dairy boys went back to producing a good cross bred calf, it would solve a number of issues.

wrangler · 19-07-2019 1:40pm

Water John wrote: »

Organic farmer has to buy organic stock. It isn't rock up to the mart or you're dairy neighbour for calves.
Feed no meal unless last 10/12 weeks of finishing or grow your own. Only some peoples land will be suitable for that. A crimped crop works out at about €160/t.
An alternative is grass/clover mix, esp for silage. White clover can fix 100kg/Ha, Red clover 200kg/ha. One way of improving clover in the sward is feed it to sheep. Tip, esp for Wrangler.
So remove meal and bag fertiliser if you are running a low stocking system.
No doubt all future schemes incl BPS, will carry a significant environmental aspect.

Know it's an old hobby horse of mine but if the dairy boys went back to producing a good cross bred calf, it would solve a number of issues.

Have told this story before on here but is worth telling again.
We had a farm walk here and the discussion moved on to clover, I was saying that we were trying to introduce clover, I mentioned that the seed supplier was advising to feed the clover seed in the ration to the sheep but I didn't know whether it worked or not, to which a smart ass said '' well it definitely works with nettles ''

Water John · 19-07-2019 2:15pm

Say My Name, this is what you want to get your teeth into, a Dexter burger or steak.
https://www.drumanilra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Drumanilra-Burger-Bar-Cafe-Menu-2019.pdf

Has a place in Boyle and going to open two more.

coolshannagh28 · 19-07-2019 2:29pm

Water John wrote: »

Say My Name, this is what you want to get your teeth into, a Dexter burger or steak.
https://www.drumanilra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Drumanilra-Burger-Bar-Cafe-Menu-2019.pdf

Has a place in Boyle and going to open two more.

This is the future.

older by the day · 19-07-2019 2:41pm

Just back from the weanling show and sale at Skibb. It's the old rule if you don't have them good your not going to get paid. Anything plain is hopeless. Even in a low cost system you still have the costs unless you let the farm get ran down. Cutting down in lime , p&k, servicing machinery, letting the roof fall in on your buildings. You won't be left with much in a few years.

Muckit · 19-07-2019 2:44pm

No matter what, it always pays to keep facilities in good order. I'll be spending a pretty penny again this year on concrete and shed repairs.
No point having bad working conditions and a poor return!! Double the misery!!

Say my name · 19-07-2019 3:15pm

Water John wrote: »

Say My Name, this is what you want to get your teeth into, a Dexter burger or steak.
https://www.drumanilra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Drumanilra-Burger-Bar-Cafe-Menu-2019.pdf

Has a place in Boyle and going to open two more.

Now if they could just have another group producing Irish Moiled cattle and farmed eco friendly they'd be onto something.
Maybe the moilies could knock the foreign Angus off the menu?

The moilies would actually be the native cattle to that part of Ireland.

Birdnuts · 19-07-2019 5:18pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

"Councils have no interest in farms in West Cork.... thank god"......I wouldn't bet on that lasting

Indeed - with water quality going the wrong way since the quotas went the EU are starting to put the squeeze via fines and other measures on the country if things don't start going the other way soon in terms of the Water Directive. Same goes for septic tanks, waste water treatment(especcially ones discharging to freshwater). Teagasc and the EPA will be taking over from the CC's on this matter too.

Butcher Boy · 19-07-2019 5:23pm

older by the day wrote: »

Just back from the weanling show and sale at Skibb. It's the old rule if you don't have them good your not going to get paid. Anything plain is hopeless. Even in a low cost system you still have the costs unless you let the farm get ran down. Cutting down in lime , p&k, servicing machinery, letting the roof fall in on your buildings. You won't be left with much in a few years.

what would nice ch bulls 320 kgs make?

Bullocks · 19-07-2019 6:05pm

Welding Rod wrote: »

And watching the country and it’s dog abandoning suckler cows, is a good indicator to lads reasonably good at it to stay in the game. When the crowd is going south, followed by more who bend with every breeze, it’s time to head quietly the other way.

The thing is that the good and efficient suckler farmers ain't making a bob either. Beef is too cheap. If we were getting €6/kg it could be profitable and I can't see that happening. I'm a few years thinking we will stick with the sucklers in case they will be used as a reference for payments but that isn't happening either. I'm fairly low input but there is still a bit of time spent on them compared to dry stock and more paperwork

Muckit · 19-07-2019 8:43pm

The difference timewise between drystock and sucklers is chalk and cheese

Bullocks · 19-07-2019 8:58pm

Muckit wrote: »

The difference timewise between drystock and sucklers is chalk and cheese

That's a fact. There is no way the suckler farmer is getting paid for the extra time he spends producing a weanlin.
Tagging, BVD sampling, dehorning, sculling, weaning and watching them at night when calving. Do you miss it all Muckit? Oh and probably more bunches of cattle when at grass.
I'm talking myself out of it here ðŸ˜‚

Dickie10 · 19-07-2019 10:45pm

around here (south meath) i can see a lot of farms go wild or being put into spuds by a few big players, there are only so many young lads to go into dairying , actually very few in a 10 mile radius of me have done it. as i think i mentioned before on this , theres a very poor farming culture among young people arouund this area, sure you have young lads mad to drive tractors but very few who would ever consider a career in agriculture even though there are lots of opportunities in the area to rent farms if you had a decent business plan. its very strange when i go to other areas of the country and you just know that theres a big farming culture in the area, places in the west come to mind or areas like cavan /monaghon , the meath /kildare are is distinctly lacking in this. even myself , i could be dairying but havent a clue about it and no love for cows, i pulled the plug on sucklers this year. i have a nice public sector job and could rent up to 100 acres of grazing on my doorstep if i wanted but i really dont see the point in being a busy fool. i definitly believe you will see this farming inertia spread to other areas , its too easy now for young lads to get handy money in this area anyway.

older by the day · 19-07-2019 10:53pm

Butcher Boy wrote: »

what would nice ch bulls 320 kgs make?

Depends on quality but 800approx. It seemed today that light ones were better than heavy

carrollsno1 · 20-07-2019 1:56am

Dickie10 wrote: »

around here (south meath) i can see a lot of farms go wild or being put into spuds by a few big players, there are only so many young lads to go into dairying , actually very few in a 10 mile radius of me have done it. as i think i mentioned before on this , theres a very poor farming culture among young people arouund this area, sure you have young lads mad to drive tractors but very few who would ever consider a career in agriculture even though there are lots of opportunities in the area to rent farms if you had a decent business plan. its very strange when i go to other areas of the country and you just know that theres a big farming culture in the area, places in the west come to mind or areas like cavan /monaghon , the meath /kildare are is distinctly lacking in this. even myself , i could be dairying but havent a clue about it and no love for cows, i pulled the plug on sucklers this year. i have a nice public sector job and could rent up to 100 acres of grazing on my doorstep if i wanted but i really dont see the point in being a busy fool. i definitly believe you will see this farming inertia spread to other areas , its too easy now for young lads to get handy money in this area anyway.

Always noticed from Macra it was mainly the farmers daughters doing the hard ysrds around that neck of the woods and the sons off working in dublin.

Upstream · 20-07-2019 3:10am

Maybe beef is slowly coming back into favour, it has spent long enough in the doghouse.

People are starting to realise how good ruminants like cattle can be for the health of the planet, if managed in the right way.

Here's an article from the Huffington Post
Can Meat Actually Save The Planet?
[HTML]https://www.huffpost.com/entry/meat-save-planet-regenerative-farming_l_5d261f7ae4b0583e482b0192?[/HTML]

There's a future in regenerative agriculture that protects the environment at the same time as producing high quality nutrient dense food. Regenerative farming doesn't just apply to beef, it's for all production, for other animals as well as trees and crops and fruits and vegetables. It focuses on soil health as a priority and fertility from animal inputs is at the centre of a lot of that.

The extensive, low input farming models being discussed here are not a million miles away from the regenerative model, they just need a little bit of tweaking to make sure fertility is maintained.

Bullocks · 20-07-2019 8:10am

Dickie10 wrote: »

its too easy now for young lads to get handy money in this area anyway.

I saw around here 7/8years ago when the recession was in full swing how a lot of lads went back at cows and reckoned there was a few pound in them. Most of them are gone back working elsewhere now that handy work can be got.
Will they cod themselves again with the next recession that a few sucklers will keep them going?

Muckit · 20-07-2019 10:54am

In that case it had other benefits. Everyone needs a purpose and a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

kk.man · 20-07-2019 11:29am

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Always noticed from Macra it was mainly the farmers daughters doing the hard ysrds around that neck of the woods and the sons off working in dublin.

You would think with good meath fattening land that would not be the case?

carrollsno1 · 20-07-2019 11:43am

kk.man wrote: »

You would think with good meath fattening land that would not be the case?

Something in tbe water up there alright, and a hell of a lot stronger Macra than Kilkenny too.

kollegeknight · 20-07-2019 7:56pm

Not certain what I will do, My mother has 76 acres with about 45 very poor. With the exception of the silage and slurry guy, I can’t get contractors for love nor money to do anything. Got so sick of waiting on a lad for spraying that I bought a quad sprayer and made a bracket for the 135. I’ve also no help or helpful neighbours of any description so every job takes half a day. Between that and juggling 2 children with third on way.

I’ve 13cows calving each year after to offload in autumn but have late calves this year so will keep until spring. Don’t make anything out of it and after running mams house, there is nothing left if anything the farm is eating into her payments.

At the moment We have 32 animals including a bull, three replacements and a cull to that I’ve to get rid of.

I’m topping at moment and places I topped twice last year and the rushes are over the bonnet of the tractor again and back to getting contractors again is why I did nothing regarding licking.

It costs me about €150 a week in child minding fees and that’s without including oh on reduced hours to enable me to farm.

I reckon I’m going to take bull off most of them and scan in a few weeks and just off load the empty sucklers. Cut everything back. Place needs thousands to bring it to any standard if I decided to go bord bia and finish some cattle.

Mams minimum stocking rate Is 5 LU. She needs 7 4/5star cattle for the beef genomics.

Dinzee Conlee · 20-07-2019 8:38pm

kollegeknight wrote: »

Not certain what I will do, My mother has 76 acres with about 45 very poor. With the exception of the silage and slurry guy, I can’t get contractors for love nor money to do anything. Got so sick of waiting on a lad for spraying that I bought a quad sprayer and made a bracket for the 135. I’ve also no help or helpful neighbours of any description so every job takes half a day. Between that and juggling 2 children with third on way.

I’ve 13cows calving each year after to offload in autumn but have late calves this year so will keep until spring. Don’t make anything out of it and after running mams house, there is nothing left if anything the farm is eating into her payments.

At the moment We have 32 animals including a bull, three replacements and a cull to that I’ve to get rid of.

I’m topping at moment and places I topped twice last year and the rushes are over the bonnet of the tractor again and back to getting contractors again is why I did nothing regarding licking.

It costs me about €150 a week in child minding fees and that’s without including oh on reduced hours to enable me to farm.

I reckon I’m going to take bull off most of them and scan in a few weeks and just off load the empty sucklers. Cut everything back. Place needs thousands to bring it to any standard if I decided to go bord bia and finish some cattle.

Mams minimum stocking rate Is 5 LU. She needs 7 4/5star cattle for the beef genomics.

I know it might not be very popular - but would you consider planting some of it?
It would be a tax free income for your mother, and it would be less acreage for you to have to deal with - less fencing / spraying / licking, etc...

As regards the cattle - I don’t have any, so I wouldn’t know that much about them. But if you’re losing money farming them, and you’re paying for childminding whilst farming, then surely packing in what you’re at now makes the most sense...
Again - might not be very popular, but maybe what you need is a few pet cattle, that can kinda manage away themselves as much as possible... maybe even donkeys? (If they still qualify to draw down payments?)

Try not to let things get you down. Whatever you do, best of luck with it...

jaymla627 · 20-07-2019 9:05pm

kollegeknight wrote: »

Not certain what I will do, My mother has 76 acres with about 45 very poor. With the exception of the silage and slurry guy, I can’t get contractors for love nor money to do anything. Got so sick of waiting on a lad for spraying that I bought a quad sprayer and made a bracket for the 135. I’ve also no help or helpful neighbours of any description so every job takes half a day. Between that and juggling 2 children with third on way.

I’ve 13cows calving each year after to offload in autumn but have late calves this year so will keep until spring. Don’t make anything out of it and after running mams house, there is nothing left if anything the farm is eating into her payments.

At the moment We have 32 animals including a bull, three replacements and a cull to that I’ve to get rid of.

I’m topping at moment and places I topped twice last year and the rushes are over the bonnet of the tractor again and back to getting contractors again is why I did nothing regarding licking.

It costs me about €150 a week in child minding fees and that’s without including oh on reduced hours to enable me to farm.

I reckon I’m going to take bull off most of them and scan in a few weeks and just off load the empty sucklers. Cut everything back. Place needs thousands to bring it to any standard if I decided to go bord bia and finish some cattle.

Mams minimum stocking rate Is 5 LU. She needs 7 4/5star cattle for the beef genomics.

I’d be connecting your local forestry company that has a good reputation in your area and putting in the paperwork for the bad ground at least, it will take up to two years before you would even have the go ahead to start planting and in the meantime if you change your mind you simply don’t have to plant but it’s a great option to have in the pipeline

patsy_mccabe · 20-07-2019 9:10pm

A neighbour planted a few years back and he regrets it now. He says you can't revert back to grazing. I walked through it looking for a runaway calf (not mine) and the outside was planted with ash, elder, oak etc and it was nice to walk tru it. The inner part was all Sitka Spruce, I think. Totally impenetrable. It was a low lying, wet part of his farm and it did dry it out big time.
Forestry, especially sitka spruce types are a very permanent decision.

_blaaz · 20-07-2019 9:16pm

kollegeknight wrote: »

Not certain what I will do, My mother has 76 acres with about 45 very poor. With the exception of the silage and slurry guy, I can’t get contractors for love nor money to do anything. Got so sick of waiting on a lad for spraying that I bought a quad sprayer and made a bracket for the 135. I’ve also no help or helpful neighbours of any description so every job takes half a day. Between that and juggling 2 children with third on way.

I’ve 13cows calving each year after to offload in autumn but have late calves this year so will keep until spring. Don’t make anything out of it and after running mams house, there is nothing left if anything the farm is eating into her payments.

At the moment We have 32 animals including a bull, three replacements and a cull to that I’ve to get rid of.

I’m topping at moment and places I topped twice last year and the rushes are over the bonnet of the tractor again and back to getting contractors again is why I did nothing regarding licking.

It costs me about €150 a week in child minding fees and that’s without including oh on reduced hours to enable me to farm.

I reckon I’m going to take bull off most of them and scan in a few weeks and just off load the empty sucklers. Cut everything back. Place needs thousands to bring it to any standard if I decided to go bord bia and finish some cattle.

Mams minimum stocking rate Is 5 LU. She needs 7 4/5star cattle for the beef genomics.

Dont give up on topping....wed have some very low lying fields similar to what you describe

Rushes up over bonnets etc,mower choking every 8 to 10 yards when mowing etc....we got em.under control with relative minimal drainage and regular mowing (couldnt get anyone to spray it either),and out wintering ewe lambs to clean it off

I was out mowing/topping it earlier and its 80%+ grass now....but you would want to keep on top of it etc with regular work (might not be possible with kids??).....imo sheep would give better utlisation/return for this type land as cattle will just cut it up unless weather is 100% perfect

Hard Knocks · 20-07-2019 9:35pm

kollegeknight wrote: »

Not certain what I will do, My mother has 76 acres with about 45 very poor. With the exception of the silage and slurry guy, I can’t get contractors for love nor money to do anything. Got so sick of waiting on a lad for spraying that I bought a quad sprayer and made a bracket for the 135. I’ve also no help or helpful neighbours of any description so every job takes half a day. Between that and juggling 2 children with third on way.

I’ve 13cows calving each year after to offload in autumn but have late calves this year so will keep until spring. Don’t make anything out of it and after running mams house, there is nothing left if anything the farm is eating into her payments.

At the moment We have 32 animals including a bull, three replacements and a cull to that I’ve to get rid of.

I’m topping at moment and places I topped twice last year and the rushes are over the bonnet of the tractor again and back to getting contractors again is why I did nothing regarding licking.

It costs me about €150 a week in child minding fees and that’s without including oh on reduced hours to enable me to farm.

I reckon I’m going to take bull off most of them and scan in a few weeks and just off load the empty sucklers. Cut everything back. Place needs thousands to bring it to any standard if I decided to go bord bia and finish some cattle.

Mams minimum stocking rate Is 5 LU. She needs 7 4/5star cattle for the beef genomics.

June wasn’t a good month & has contractors flat out with 1st cut, slurry & getting into 2nd cut since, waiting myself too
If the farm is helping to keep your mother, reducing stock may not reduce your work load but will reduce income to your mother.
I agree with taking the bull away but don’t cull.
Let them feed their calves & outwinter if you’ve a middling run as they’ll clean it for you & culls are generally dearer in spring than autumn
The rushy fields, are they wet (need shoring) or dry?
Have you done a soil test recently?
If they’re dry & low PH - Mulch, spray regrowth & apply lime whether ground line at 2T/ac every 2/3 years or 1 bag gran line each spring
We’re tidying up a farm ourselves & it’s not easy but rewarding
2 years ago we were just about keeping grass in front of 5 now grass is getting strong in front of 8
Break the farm into parts whether separate fields or group of fields.
We’d trim hedges clean drains sheep fenced & install drinker etc in a block, to leave manageable then when have enough money for next block do it.
We made sure land was signed over before we invested, there’s been lots of days of me & the kids fencing with picnics

TL17 · 20-07-2019 9:41pm

kollegeknight wrote:

Not certain what I will do, My mother has 76 acres with about 45 very poor. With the exception of the silage and slurry guy, I canâ€™t get contractors for love nor money to do anything. Got so sick of waiting on a lad for spraying that I bought a quad sprayer and made a bracket for the 135. Iâ€™ve also no help or helpful neighbours of any description so every job takes half a day. Between that and juggling 2 children with third on way.

I wouldn't be going into forestry either. Some one wrote on other thread 20 year plantations not worth much.20 years not a long time. Farming a great life for your children who will soon love being out and about with you and wont need childcare always. Some of our best family memories are pottering around on the farm. Mine all had their own calves and still do.They in late 20s now and it brings us all together. Small few key improvements can get rid of lot of drudgery.Think about running some dairy calves with just enough sucklers for the scheme.Just so long as every thing is safe like culling all wild stock and having good fencing.Developing your farm is very tax efficient too.

kollegeknight · 20-07-2019 10:02pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I know it might not be very popular - but would you consider planting some of it?
It would be a tax free income for your mother, and it would be less acreage for you to have to deal with - less fencing / spraying / licking, etc...

As regards the cattle - I don’t have any, so I wouldn’t know that much about them. But if you’re losing money farming them, and you’re paying for childminding whilst farming, then surely packing in what you’re at now makes the most sense...
Again - might not be very popular, but maybe what you need is a few pet cattle, that can kinda manage away themselves as much as possible... maybe even donkeys? (If they still qualify to draw down payments?)

Try not to let things get you down. Whatever you do, best of luck with it...

The rivers failed the water test so it can’t be planted. And there was moss in between the rushes so the forestry guy said we would never get planning there. We get the full glas hen harrier payment for the worst of it so at least there’s that for as long as it lasts. Gas thing is if we were 750m east or west or 1km north, we would have wind turbines, or if we were 500m south, we would have money gotten for roads for the turbines. we just happen to be perfectly placed to avoid windfalls.

As for donkeys, I’d rather run a few empty cows. But I reckon I’ll keep a few of dads cows and try reduce fertilizer and silage costs a bit. Just to figure the right number to keep.

When the place is in my name I’ll put some of my money into it but I refuse to until it is as I’m one of 8 and someone could get awkward or mam could change will and I’d be left whistling.

There are times it bothers me and the workload is high playing catch-up but I don’t let it get to me- I started running to make time for myself where no mother/wife/children or farm to deal with.

kollegeknight · 20-07-2019 10:07pm

Hard Knocks wrote: »

June wasn’t a good month & has contractors flat out with 1st cut, slurry & getting into 2nd cut since, waiting myself too
If the farm is helping to keep your mother, reducing stock may not reduce your work load but will reduce income to your mother.
I agree with taking the bull away but don’t cull.
Let them feed their calves & outwinter if you’ve a middling run as they’ll clean it for you & culls are generally dearer in spring than autumn
The rushy fields, are they wet (need shoring) or dry?
Have you done a soil test recently?
If they’re dry & low PH - Mulch, spray regrowth & apply lime whether ground line at 2T/ac every 2/3 years or 1 bag gran line each spring
We’re tidying up a farm ourselves & it’s not easy but rewarding
2 years ago we were just about keeping grass in front of 5 now grass is getting strong in front of 8
Break the farm into parts whether separate fields or group of fields.
We’d trim hedges clean drains sheep fenced & install drinker etc in a block, to leave manageable then when have enough money for next block do it.
We made sure land was signed over before we invested, there’s been lots of days of me & the kids fencing with picnics

When I say contractors- I mean waiting 8 months for lads to spray or two years for a digger man. My silage/slurry guy is rock solid and if everyone was as good as him I’d be sorted. I have a new digger driver who has been a god send- he did my site and stayed on to clear a few drains for me.
All the land is cut away bog and apart from the last two years- the place is very wet. What I call the home farm is ok- but you couldn’t out winter a duck. Our winter is usually months.

At the moment the lads are too young and the youngest demands full attention. Our third will be our last- 3 children 5yo. So in 5 years I will be in a better position family wise.

Future of beef production in Ireland.

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