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Heat Pumps - post here.

  • 29-04-2008 3:13pm
    #1
    mossy74
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭mossy74


    Hi All,
    I have some questions some of you may have answers for.

    I have a Ochsner heat pump for my geothermal heating system and on the information plate at the back of it, it says that it should use 3.6 KWh based on 20Amps at 230V with a power factor 0f 0.78. There is also another figure for the maximum current of 23 Amps.

    My issue is that I have measured using a clamp meter a current of up to 28Amps (at 226V), I have also run some tests where I have switched off all circuit breakers in my house except for the ones used by the geothermal system. Taking account of shunt pump and controls the heatpump uses (measured over a few nights) approximately 4.8KWh. The supplier claims that this is due to a lot of heat loss in my house and that therefore the pump has to work harder. I think that this may be a fob off as the information plate clearly states that it should draw a max current of 23 Amps but to use 4.6KWh it must be drawing an average of over 26Amps. Has anyone else seen this? Is it normal? Will it affect the life of my heatpump etc. etc.
    Tagged:


«134567…118

Comments

  • #2
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,751 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I can't honestly say that I know the answer, but I think you've hit on a very real issue that some geo owners are experiencing - i.e. big electricity bills, over and above what was previously 'calculated'......

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #3
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    There are 2 reasons why there are high esb costs on heatpumps.

    1. The insulation of the house was not adequet or fitted poorly. (Its not a fob off) Its rather simple to proove. Get a Heat loss test done

    2. The size of the pump is not adequet for the use. Each house needs to be calculated differently. As there are different specs for different house.

    And more importantly.. having "good insulation" means NOTHING if its not fitted correctly If there are gaps in it you are as well have not fitted it at all as it causes a thermal draught


  • #4
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,751 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    snyper wrote: »
    There are 2 reasons why there are high esb costs on heatpumps.

    Your forgetting another is that too many 'fitters' have no idea what they're doing.............

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #5
    mossy74
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭mossy74


    I have extra insulation fitted to the inside of the walls, under the floors and in the attic space and it is well fitted - though the heat loss survey is definitely something on my to do list!

    My original question though was specific to the high current draw from the heat pump itself, regardless of heat loss I am concerned that it is using more than the maximum stated on the device itself and the effect it is having on my energy bills and on its life expectancy - has anyone seen similar readings to what I have?


  • #6
    gunner0098
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭gunner0098


    Hi Mossy,

    This is just a general reply to say that I'm having issues with very large ESB bills (last 2 month bill was €395!). I'm using a NIBE Fighter 1220. My installer tells me that it's not the heatpump that's causing the problem but I think overwise.
    I do have insulation in the floors, walls and attic and I assume its been fitted correctly. But obviously looking at the other posts it's something that I'll have to check out.
    The electrical measurements you have are very specific and I think I'll have to get my electrical in to check out my heatpump and see can he do similar.

    Regards

    Gunner0098


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  • #7
    mossy74
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭mossy74


    Hi Gunner, I hate to say it but I think I can beat you on that one.... my last 2 Month bill was €725. I nearly died of a heart attack when I saw it!


  • #8
    gunner0098
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭gunner0098


    Hey Mossy.

    And here I was sweatting over my bill (which is still inducing bouts of anger!!).

    Can I ask what your next step is with this?

    Cheers

    gunner0098


  • #9
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,944 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mossy74 wrote: »
    Hi Gunner, I hate to say it but I think I can beat you on that one.... my last 2 Month bill was €725. I nearly died of a heart attack when I saw it!


    :eek::eek:
    geezzz............


  • #10
    KAGY
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭KAGY


    mossy74 wrote: »
    Hi Gunner, I hate to say it but I think I can beat you on that one.... my last 2 Month bill was €725. I nearly died of a heart attack when I saw it!

    €729! Beat ya
    TBH, my compressor was working over time due to a refn leak. Normally 350 in winter 200 in summer. As i'm in the country I have a higher standing charge than urban areas, that's fair enough ESBN have to do more work to get the line to me, but I'm charged the same higher rate for the night meter even though the line is there! (total 160 a year for both)

    Gunner, it might be an idea to check the pressures in the heat pump. You also never said what the thermostats are set to. If your house is at 22deg all over 24/7/365 your bills would obviously be higher.
    My upstairs is heated by the heat rising from downstairs except on the coldest of nights when I might have the rads on for 2hrs.


  • #11
    boardwalk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭boardwalk


    mossy74 wrote: »
    Hi All,
    I have some questions some of you may have answers for.

    I have a Ochsner heat pump for my geothermal heating system and on the information plate at the back of it, it says that it should use 3.6 KWh based on 20Amps at 230V with a power factor 0f 0.78. There is also another figure for the maximum current of 23 Amps.

    My issue is that I have measured using a clamp meter a current of up to 28Amps (at 226V), I have also run some tests where I have switched off all circuit breakers in my house except for the ones used by the geothermal system. Taking account of shunt pump and controls the heatpump uses (measured over a few nights) approximately 4.8KWh. The supplier claims that this is due to a lot of heat loss in my house and that therefore the pump has to work harder. I think that this may be a fob off as the information plate clearly states that it should draw a max current of 23 Amps but to use 4.6KWh it must be drawing an average of over 26Amps. Has anyone else seen this? Is it normal? Will it affect the life of my heatpump etc. etc.
    I only saw you posting today. The difference of electricity consuption of what it says on the lable and the reality has nothing to do with heat loss. The 3,6 KWh is for the heat pump only and does not include the electricity for the geothermal circulation pump.


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  • #12
    martincodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭martincodd


    I've been doing some research on heat recovery and heat pumps etc. for a house i'm constructing. I was wondering if anyone knows what i can do if i have heat pumos and heat recovery in my house and the electricity goes off. Am i totally dependant on the esb or what's the story. Also how much power can i expect to use for these. Would it be advisable to have some form of power generation of my own? any help or links etc would be useful. I just don't want to totally rely on electricity in my house. An airtight house needs to be ventilated i've been led to believe....


  • #13
    Juantorena
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Juantorena


    I am looking to go down this route. Currently I'm awaiting feedback from the manufacturers as to whether the calculated heat demand for the house can be met by their system. If I get an affirmative from them I will be talking with them in more detail re the running costs, practical day-to-day running programs/methods etc.

    One thing to remember - other than a stand alone space heater (i.e. stove) I think all other heating systems do have an electric input of some sort, remember water-based systems need a pump. If the ESB goes down, you're still without heating on an UFH/rad system.


  • #14
    No6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    martincodd wrote: »
    An airtight house needs to be ventilated i've been led to believe....
    according to Thomas O'Leary (Irelands first passive house owner) when the ESB is down open a window!!!:D It may not help your heating but will keep you ventilated!!


  • #15
    RKQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    Juantorena wrote: »
    I think all other heating systems do have an electric input of some sort, remember water-based systems need a pump. If the ESB goes down, you're still without heating on an UFH/rad system.

    True - so the old saying "never leave all your eggs in one basket", is apt. Always a good idea to have a backup or alternative.

    A heated floor slab won't completely loose all its heat, overnight, if the ESB fails. Unlike water in a radiator.

    Some Passive houses have numerous 50watt halogen bulbs - lots of heat off them, but not necessarily economical to run! (People, lights, cooking are viewed as heaters) I suppose technically a Passive House isn't always an Eco House.:)


  • #16
    record
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭record


    gunner0098 wrote: »
    Hey Mossy.

    And here I was sweatting over my bill (which is still inducing bouts of anger!!).

    Can I ask what your next step is with this?

    Cheers

    gunner0098

    Just to get an update - have your ESB bills come down since you posted on this topic? I'm interested as I am currently having similar problems.

    Many thanks.


  • #17
    record
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭record


    I have read many threads here on the running costs of heatpumps. A common theme seems to be very high (and unexpected) running costs when people start to use them.

    I am just wondering if anyone has managed to bring down the running costs of their heatpump and, if so, how?

    (I am having similar problems myself with my own heatpump).

    Thanks in advance for any replies.


  • #18
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Sorry I cant offer a direct reponse - I don't have a heat pump - would you mind taking part in this please ?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055263818


  • #19
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    A lot of energy is consumed by domestic hot water . You may be overheating it .

    If your water is nice and hot whilst showering and you neeed to mix cold - try turning your cylinder stat down

    Try increasing the thickness of insulation on your cylider and increasing the insulation of your primary pipework ( which runs between the cylinder and heat pump )

    Do you have dual tarriff metring ? To take advantage of night rate ? Try moving the power on period more into the night time zone

    Not heat pump related ....

    unplug all appliances where this is practical ( or turn off switches if your power points have switches )

    only fill ketttle with 2/3 cupfulls if thats all your going to use

    only charge your phone for the 40/50mins rerquired -never overnight

    replace most / all lighting with low energy


  • #20
    Chimpster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Chimpster


    Folks,

    Is it fair to say that anyone with an air to water heat pump has been paying up to €0.19 per kWh for the last week to heat their home?

    Is there anybody out there that has a unit installed for over a year now? What are your experiences?

    I am finding it difficult to get proper independent COP figures for air to water units.


  • #21
    dryan
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭dryan


    Hi Lads and Lassies,

    I have a few questions to throw out there regarding the working/performance of Geothermal Heatpumps.

    These days i find that the heatpump is running alot - both at night time (mostly) and during the day (quiet a bit too).
    One thing that is bugging me is that even though there is no demand (all stats are off and the cylinder is heated), its still running clocking up the units. I quizzed the installer about this last year and he told me that once the outside temp hits < 3 degrees, the heat pump will be running most of the time.
    Is he right on this???
    What is bugging me is that even though there is no demand on it - its still running.

    My second question is regarding some of the Brine out/in temperature readings on it.
    I kept an eye on it during the summer months and the Brine out/in temp was reading 7/11 degrees.
    I checked this again last night and the readings were 3/7 degrees.
    I didnt think that the ground temperature would show that much of a difference.
    Is there anyone else out there seeing similar readings?

    Regarding the performance of my heatpump - i installed a seperate meter on my heatpump this year (April 7th 2008).
    Last night it hit 3000 units.
    Considering that the majority of these units used were at a night rate of 6.5 cents, if they average say at 10 cents a unit (max), to date then my heat pump running costs since the meter was installed is around 300 euro excluding VAT and standing charges..

    How does that compare to other users out there?

    Thanks folks.


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  • #22
    muffler
    Registered Users Posts: 45,809 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    This is an ongoing topic so What I am going to do is make one thread and merge the others with this. A couple of the posts will now be jumbled up a wee bit but you can blame smashey and Mellor for that.

    This will tidy up the sub forum a bit and i will sticky this to ensure that its staring at you as soon as you hit the front page.


  • #23
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    I've been running a GS heat pump in a three bed detached house for about five years now. The heat delivery is underfloor.

    I use no gas or oil. I have a solid fuel range, mainly ornamental though we occasionally cook a roast in it and will probably do the Xmas roast in it. We also keep a small traditional open (to the sky) fire in the living room, again ornamental in the main.

    Part of the house is a traditional cottage using rubble filled stone walls. So they're very porous - and can on occasion be draughty in strong easterlies. The insulation in the roof space, under the floors and in the modern external walls is to a fairly high standard.

    We have three kids at school so the washing machine is going throughout out the week - the tumble dryer less so though it gets plenty of use. We cook on an electric stove, microwave etc. The front door to the house is open to the garden most days when the kids are not at school. Otherwise the half door is open to keep the dog from lounging around indoors.
    My wife works from home so the heat's on all day every day. She uses a computer and printer.

    So apart from the nice wood fire in the TV room in winter and the occasional range slow-cooked roast diiner, the ESB supplies all my energy. My ESB bill has settled at around €2k pa. We use a night meter but the thermostats are generally reprogrammed only about two or three times a year. It's not unheard of to open the velux windows in the roof in spring to cool the place or to sit in the kitchen at dinner in winter with the door open so I'm sure I could do better.

    It's because the house itself is the radiator, the comfort of the place is seductive. There's no shouting at the kids to close to door or hunting around for draughts, though on occasion the east wind can blow down the chimney or through the walls, but that's not frequent.

    And we never run out of oil on a Sunday afternoon in February.


  • #24
    slayer91
    Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭slayer91


    Somethings to consider about excessive ESB bills with heats pumps.

    1. The unit cost of electricity when I installed my heat pump in late 2005 was 12.2c per KWH for day rate and 5.42c per Kwh for night rate. The current costs are 18c and 8.8c respectively. That is a huge increase over time.

    2. This winter has been by far, the coldest of the last 3 winters, so the heat pump is running longer to keep the internal temps the same.

    3. The most important figure in dealing with heatpumps is the CoP (Co efficent of Performance). The higher the better. If your Cop is 4.5 then for every unit of electrical energy (running the compressor in the heat pump) used by the HP, it returns 4.5 units of heat. All CoP are effected by ambient temp, the lower it goes the lower the CoP goes. Therefore the HP runs longer to give the same heat. Most suppliers quote their system CoP for 8 deg C. Air source HP in particular are effected by this.

    I used my air sourced HP to supply all heating (u/f downstairs and rads upstair), domestic hotwater for 2 showers and taps.
    In all, the total annual ESB costs for all usage including general usage in 2007 was €2400. I expect this figure to be exceeded for 2008 for the reasons outlined. House is 2500sq ft. Insulation could be improved.

    Regs


  • #25
    hiscan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭hiscan


    on the subject of high esb bills,got one last month for 495 euro the only problem is we dont have any underfloor heating but i did install one of hose dual meters,my question is do i need the day/night meter when i dont have underfloor heating a mate reckons your eletricity is dearer this way
    the only pumps i have is one in the garage where all my heating is eg. boiler,water tanks i also have a well on site and theres a pump down there plus one of the new septic tanks
    would any of these three pumps justify an esb bill 0f 495 euro?
    would there be such a thing as a faulty esb meter
    apologies if this is in the wrong place feel free to move it


  • #26
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    hiscan wrote: »
    on the subject of high esb bills,got one last month for 495 euro the only problem is we dont have any underfloor heating but i did install one of hose dual meters,my question is do i need the day/night meter when i dont have underfloor heating a mate reckons your eletricity is dearer this way
    the only pumps i have is one in the garage where all my heating is eg. boiler,water tanks i also have a well on site and theres a pump down there plus one of the new septic tanks
    would any of these three pumps justify an esb bill 0f 495 euro?
    would there be such a thing as a faulty esb meter
    apologies if this is in the wrong place feel free to move it

    Are you sure there isn't an "E" beside the current meter reading? I have got really scary bills in the past too. But they were wildly inaccurate estimated readings on the ESB's part.


  • #27
    hiscan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭hiscan


    rathbaner wrote: »
    Are you sure there isn't an "E" beside the current meter reading? I have got really scary bills in the past too. But they were wildly inaccurate estimated readings on the ESB's part.

    i wish there was but unfortunately it's an actual reading:(


  • #28
    dryan
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭dryan


    Regarding the performance of the heatpumps (Horiz GS), can people tell me the temperature values of the brine in/out readings? How is this cold spell affecting the heat pump performances?

    Thanks


  • #29
    2500w
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭2500w


    This cold snap started about two weeks ago, on a Sunday as I recall.
    I noticed that it coincided with our heat pump just running and running. Up until then it had been acheiving 34 degree UFH temperatures no problem. Overnight it seemed to begin to struggle to acheive 26 degrees.

    Only then did I look for a figure for brine temp. From the analog dials I am reading it seems to be at 0 and -2 (in and out)! Note to get an accurate reading for these, I understand the unit has to be RUNNING.

    If anybody knows :
    - how to get digital data for brine temps from an ochsner heat pump I would be obliged. The installer or manufacturer still has not told me.
    - what effect these low brine temperatures have on heat pump COP.

    In reply to dryan, the heat pump running even when there is no demand. It may be possible to prevent this by turning the heat pump setback temperature down to something like 15 degrees. Its trying to keep the water at a certain temperature hence it kicks in regardless of demand from the rooms.


  • #30
    merlynthewizard
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭merlynthewizard


    How cheap are they to run? and are they green since we get out power from fossil fuels?
    What kind of figures are we talking to get one done?


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  • #31
    RKQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    Cheaper than gas or oil IMO. Independent test have been carrier out, see RIAI mag.
    Geo-thermal is eco green - even if we still use fossil fuels to generate Electricity - shame on us, we have the perfect country for Wind turbines but have been painfully slow to invest!

    How can a system that give up to 3kw of heat per 1 kw esb used be less efficient than a 90% boiler? Shame on SEI


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