The Sub 4 Support Thread

Anbocmorrua · 11-02-2019 2:37pm

Folks I'm thinking of making my marathon debut this autumn. What time do you think I should be aiming for (I need something to shoot at. Just getting around the course wouldn't provide enough motivation for all that horrendous looking training).

I am: 51, male. Running for about 3.5 years now.
My recent PBs are HM: 1h 41m, 10k: 44.55, 5k: 21.12.

Interested to hear your wise thoughts on this.

DULLAHAN2 · 11-02-2019 2:40pm

Anbocmorrua wrote: »

Folks I'm thinking of making my marathon debut this autumn. What time do you think I should be aiming for (I need something to shoot at. Just getting around the course wouldn't provide enough motivation for all that horrendous looking training).

I am: 51, male. Running for about 3.5 years now.
My recent PBs are HM: 1h 41m, 10k: 44.55, 5k: 21.12.

Interested to hear your wise thoughts on this.

I ran a sub 4 with the same HM time as you in 2018 and I badly cramped after 30k due to poor race nutrition. You should go sub 4

Itziger · 11-02-2019 2:52pm

Anbocmorrua wrote: »

Folks I'm thinking of making my marathon debut this autumn. What time do you think I should be aiming for (I need something to shoot at. Just getting around the course wouldn't provide enough motivation for all that horrendous looking training).

I am: 51, male. Running for about 3.5 years now.
My recent PBs are HM: 1h 41m, 10k: 44.55, 5k: 21.12.

Interested to hear your wise thoughts on this.

This Autumn you say, gives you 8 months or so to train. With your times and if you handle the training I'd say go for 3.30 to 3.45.

The 'if' in If you handle the training is the big factor I think. You have already said 'horrendous-looking' which suggests you're really looking forward to getting stuck in!!

Plenty of miles and a session or two a week*. Keep it fairly simple. Build up slowly and get a good base in before the Summer and then get a bit fancier if you want to. There are lots of plans around if you're not in a club or haven't got a coach.

*How many days are you willing and able to get out? I think 5 is a good minimum (3 or even 4 of them easy runs) but I have a friend who's done marathons on two days a week!! There really is no simple answer but I repeat, plenty of miles at an easy pace and as you get fitter and used to the longer runs, then you can get a bit more imaginative. Don't try to cheat it by doing the harder miles early in a run or on the mostly downhill section. That kind of thing will bit you in the butt on the day.

Murph_D · 11-02-2019 11:58pm

Itziger’s range sounds realistic to me - especially as you’re not a beginner. A few years ago, at an age not too much more than you (53/54), with 4-5 years running under my belt I ran 3:36 then 3:29, with two 1:41 HMs in between. So if I were you I’d be targeting 3:30.

Itziger · 12-02-2019 8:37am

Murph_D wrote: »

Itziger’s range sounds realistic to me - especially as you’re not a beginner. A few years ago, at an age not too much more than you (53/54), with 4-5 years running under my belt I ran 3:36 then 3:29, with two 1:41 HMs in between. So if I were you I’d be targeting 3:30.

Jaysus, Murph, you must be ancient altogether!!

That BQ time will be a piece of cake in another year or so.

Murph_D · 12-02-2019 8:47am

Itziger wrote: »

Jaysus, Murph, you must be ancient altogether!!

That BQ time will be a piece of cake in another year or so.

Haha. Really should update that log title. Those times WERE my first BQs. It’s all about London these days!

Bluesquare · 03-06-2019 8:30pm

Not 100% sure this will be my target yet but anyone else there looking at this time for DCM and what’s your current form like in terms of tenk/half marathon times?

Kellygirl · 03-06-2019 9:32pm

Bluesquare wrote: »

Not 100% sure this will be my target yet but anyone else there looking at this time for DCM and what’s your current form like in terms of tenk/half marathon times?

Hmmmm, not sure myself. I’m just finished my first stage of the year and turning my thoughts to what’s next. I’m targeting Charleville on September 15th and I’m not sure what to do with DCM. Not sure whether to target it also or just train but aim for a smaller PB - current is 4:20:05 from 2017.

My current times are:
10k: 49:56
10 mile: 1:25:15
HM: 1:53:04

Not in sub 4 shape yet - would hope to go sub 1:50 in Charleville with the right training though.

hillsiderunner · 03-06-2019 10:24pm

Bluesquare wrote: »

Not 100% sure this will be my target yet but anyone else there looking at this time for DCM and what’s your current form like in terms of tenk/half marathon times?

I'm planning/hoping for a sub-4hr for DCM if the training goes well. Scraped in under 1hr 50 for a HM back in March and don't have much else to go on as I've been targeting trail runs in the last few months and you can't really interpret times the same way.

I had a disappointing parkrun just below 25mins on Saturday (had been hoping for sub-24 at a minimum) which would *not* suggest sub-4 is a possibility. But I'll have another go in a few weeks and hope things look better then.

skyblue46 · 03-06-2019 10:40pm

hillsiderunner wrote: »

I'm planning/hoping for a sub-4hr for DCM if the training goes well. Scraped in under 1hr 50 for a HM back in March and don't have much else to go on as I've been targeting trail runs in the last few months and you can't really interpret times the same way.

I had a disappointing parkrun just below 25mins on Saturday (had been hoping for sub-24 at a minimum) which would *not* suggest sub-4 is a possibility. But I'll have another go in a few weeks and hope things look better then.

Getting under 1:50 is a much better predictor than any 5k times. I wouldn't get hung up on the short race times. My other half struggles to get under 24 for a 5k but she did 3:34 in DCM last year. You have been building a great endurance base which will stand to you.

coogy · 03-06-2019 10:56pm

Bluesquare wrote: »

Not 100% sure this will be my target yet but anyone else there looking at this time for DCM and what’s your current form like in terms of tenk/half marathon times?

DCM 2018 was my first marathon and from the moment I started training, I had a sub-4 in my sights. As the training progressed, my confidence grew and I was starting to nail down a specific goal time, somewhere between 3:30 and 3:40. It felt achievable.

In the build-up, I ran a 10k in 43:35, 10 mile in 1:18:xx and a half marathon in 1:37:50 which gave me a great boost.

On the day itself, things did not go according to plan (nerves, fuelling mistakes, starting out too fast) and I struggled big time but fought hard to achieve sub-4 and finished in 3:57:02.

This year, with he training I'm doing, I definitely think I'm in a much better position and hope that a better and more satisfying sub-4 will come out of it!!

Griff75 · 03-06-2019 11:18pm

I’m going to have (yet another) crack at it. Did DCM several years ago in 4.06. Didn’t have the best of luck last year and got injured before DCM and a family illness stopped me doing a later December marathon then. Eventually did Seville in February but got strep throat 2 weeks out so not the best taper! I finished in 4.03 but the last 5k were horrific.

Haven’t done a 10k in ages but I did the Dublin HM in 1.47 last September and Balbriggan half in 1.46 in March. Just been tipping along since then but without any specific training plan.

niallo27 · 03-06-2019 11:34pm

Just did my first marathon in limerick last month in 4:17. I died a death in the last 10k. Did the half in 1:56 and I felt good but my knees went. Hoping to do Dublin in October. Do people think there will be many places open up on 1st of June.

hillsiderunner · 04-06-2019 9:32am

skyblue46 wrote: »

Getting under 1:50 is a much better predictor than any 5k times. I wouldn't get hung up on the short race times. My other half struggles to get under 24 for a 5k but she did 3:34 in DCM last year. You have been building a great endurance base which will stand to you.

Thanks, I do have a good few miles in the legs, so hope those will kick in as the months continue.

That is a lovely story about your other half. Dangerously inspiring!

chris85 · 04-06-2019 9:49am

Looking for sub 4 also (4:06 is my best). Times improving with some coaching and getting good consistent mileage in. Ran HM in January in 1:44 but I think I have a faster HM to come later in the Summer (or maybe for Dublin half in Sept). 5km PB few weeks ago of 21.37 so hoping to bring my shorter distance times down while building endurance. Hard balance I guess but working so far!

Not racing much this Summer mainly the AI race series and Dublin HM as a build up. All about a good DCM this year and perhaps some shorter PBs along the way.

Bluesquare · 04-06-2019 11:24am

I have had bad luck this year with regard to injury and illness so haven’t really raced a huge amount - I did a ten miler back in February in 1:26. I was out then for about six weeks with torn ligaments on my ankle . Trained for six weeks and completed a hilly tenk in just under 52 mins .

My half Pb is current 1:54 from last September , tenk is 50:45, 5k from last year is 23:45.

I’m currently doing more mileage than usual for me so hoping to do a bit of racing soon to get some idea of fitness.

My problem is I want a sub 4 but I hate marathons so when I come to the realization I’m not sub 4 for I tend to loose all motivation .

Dealerz2.0 · 04-06-2019 1:58pm

Just coming out of recovery from Belfast (New PB: 4:18:xx), legs have felt "dead" up until the weekend.

Will try again for sub 4, two previous attempts at DCM '18 and Belfast in May.

Have Clontarf Half July 6th (not sure if its a PB course, a lot of factors at play...well, potentially wind being the main one!), going to race it and try for a sub 1:50.

Previous half PB was Bohermeen in March '19 at 1:52

Will be starting P&D up to 55miles straight after Clontarf in prep for DCM '19.

Bluesquare · 30-06-2019 8:23am

If a person was targeting a sub 4 what kind of average weekly mileage during marathon training would be expected. Asking for a friend

KSU · 30-06-2019 11:31am

Bluesquare wrote: »

If a person was targeting a sub 4 what kind of average weekly mileage during marathon training would be expected. Asking for a friend

Personally I would aim for time over distance

For a 4hr runner you are talking easy pace of around 10-10.30 pace per mile.

If you ran 5 days a week would roughly be 5-6 miles easy 3 times a week 1 workout and one long run. that would probably equate to about 30 miles per week with two days off (would probably go Monday and Friday personally)

Roughly about 6 hours a week do this consistently and you would have no issue running 4hr

bucketybuck · 30-06-2019 11:51am

Bluesquare wrote: »

If a person was targeting a sub 4 what kind of average weekly mileage during marathon training would be expected. Asking for a friend

I did sub 4 last year and was basically following the Boards plan.

Its not the highest mileage plan you'll see but I was comfortable in getting sub 4 so it could be a yardstick.

eposhea · 02-07-2019 9:19am

Cracker of a thread to find! I completed my first marathon in Cork this year - finish time was 4:12 - I died from 35k onwards - nothing can prepare you for that wall.

Taking it back a little, I was very naive when I started the training in January of this year (I followed Ben Parkes Marathon plan FYI). I gave myself a goal of finishing in 3.30-3.45. I quickly realised that I needed to respect the marathon distance first and build slowly. In the end, my goal was to enjoy the marathon and stick with the Sub 4 hour pacers as much as I could.

Stuck with then until a hill at the 35k mark - once they went ahead, my brain got the better of me and I ran/walked for the resining 7k....the final 2k taking 18mins all up!! I was still ecstatic crossing the line and couldn't wait to sign up to the next one!

I managed to snag a DCM entry yesterday and am starting training for that next week - looking forward to the chat and support on this thread over the next 17 weeks or so! Consistency has always been my struggle, so the plan from Ben Parkes allowed me to remain somewhat consistent for Cork - plan for DCM is to mark sure I hit the sprint and hill sessions very consistently and let the long runs look after themselves. I have some speed in my legs (20.40 5K PB last week) - but its the endurance and mindset that I need to train more!! Bring on October!

Good luck to everyone with their goals!!

ISOP · 02-07-2019 12:50pm

I'm on week 4 of the runners world sub 4 16 week plan. I am determined to put everything into it. Made major diet adjustments aswell. No booze, sugar or refined carbs. It is going very well so far

ewc78 · 02-07-2019 2:40pm

Hi all, I'll be back in DCM 19 for another sub 4 attempt .
I started this thread last year for DCM 18 but unfortunately that ended up being a disaster. I've been running consistently 30 miles and sometimes more a week since though so have a decent base built up. I also kept up doing long runs every now and then so my first long run of my plan last Sunday of 12 miles wasn't much of a bother.
I've only 2 races lined up between now and DCM, the south Dublin 10km in Clondalkin and the RocknRoll half in August.

Hedgehoggy · 03-07-2019 9:39am

ewc78 wrote: »

Hi all, I'll be back in DCM 19 for another sub 4 attempt .
I started this thread last year for DCM 18 but unfortunately that ended up being a disaster. I've been running consistently 30 miles and sometimes more a week since though so have a decent base built up. I also kept up doing long runs every now and then so my first long run of my plan last Sunday of 12 miles wasn't much of a bother.
I've only 2 races lined up between now and DCM, the south Dublin 10km in Clondalkin and the RocknRoll half in August.

Good luck! Do you know what plan you are following this year? I followed the meno plan last year and I'm thinking of using it again this year. No races lined up at the moment but I've never done any of the race series races and thinking I'd like to try them out this year. The reality of being signed up for DCM again is beginning to hit me..... cant decide if its excitement or nerves!

ewc78 · 03-07-2019 10:24am

Yeah I found a plan on the London Marathon page that I like the look of the workouts, I am going to substitute the long runs though for the long runs in the P+D 55 plan as it has plenty of MP long runs.
https://www.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/en-gb/trainingplans/

ewc78 · 07-07-2019 1:01am

I've only gone and changed my mind regarding plans. I've been in the bed sick all weekend so I started reading this thread again from the start. Reading about the meno plan again I think has made me want to try it again but I also like the look of the grads plan which I actually didn't notice last year.
I did start meno last year but I think, or I now know, where I went wrong with training and in DCM itself is I didn't really stick to it for the last 6 or 7 weeks. I ran the wrong paces in a lot of the runs also. I got carried away a bit and thought probably I could run them faster or longer than was prescribed, think I actually over trained a little now looking back on it. I did a 20 mile long run 3 weeks before the Marathon which averaged Marathon Pace for the whole run. I think that's what killed me as I had nothing left in my legs at Mile 10 of DCM.
Anyway I'm a year older now and in my 40s now also so hopefully I've matured a bit in the last year

So I've decided now on my sick bed I will probably do the meno plan(doing max 35-40mile weeks) starting Monday if I'm hopefully over this dose I have, though I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has done the grads plan.

skyblue46 · 07-07-2019 5:22pm

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has done the grads plan.

I used the grads plan last year. I found it brilliant with lots of variety to the weeks. Anyone else from the 2017 or 2018 novices threads who have used the plans over any distances have seen huge improvements too.

It of course must be borne in mind that a couple of years of consistent training at the right level of difficulty/recovery will bring improvement irrespective of the plan followed but the Grads plan certainly ticks all the boxes.

aquinn · 08-07-2019 2:07pm

ewc78 wrote: »

I've only gone and changed my mind regarding plans. I've been in the bed sick all weekend so I started reading this thread again from the start. Reading about the meno plan again I think has made me want to try it again but I also like the look of the grads plan which I actually didn't notice last year.
I did start meno last year but I think, or I now know, where I went wrong with training and in DCM itself is I didn't really stick to it for the last 6 or 7 weeks. I ran the wrong paces in a lot of the runs also. I got carried away a bit and thought probably I could run them faster or longer than was prescribed, think I actually over trained a little now looking back on it. I did a 20 mile long run 3 weeks before the Marathon which averaged Marathon Pace for the whole run. I think that's what killed me as I had nothing left in my legs at Mile 10 of DCM.
Anyway I'm a year older now and in my 40s now also so hopefully I've matured a bit in the last year
So I've decided now on my sick bed I will probably do the meno plan(doing max 35-40mile weeks) starting Monday if I'm hopefully over this dose I have, though I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has done the grads plan.

Hey,

3 of us are about to start week 3 of the plan. Make sure you have a good base for starting as it has a heavy weekly mileage and there is an injury risk if you increase too quickly.

I'm aiming for the lower mileage on the plan so far my mileage is 35.4 and 38.3 miles per week.

Good luck and enjoy. I already have my session set up today for Wednesday.

Hedgehoggy · 08-07-2019 5:15pm

aquinn wrote: »

Hey,

3 of us are about to start week 3 of the plan. Make sure you have a good base for starting as it has a heavy weekly mileage and there is an injury risk if you increase too quickly.

I'm aiming for the lower mileage on the plan so far my mileage is 35.4 and 38.3 miles per week.

Good luck and enjoy. I already have my session set up today for Wednesday.

I've decided I'll do the meno plan again but eeks I thought I should b be in wk 2........how many weeks to DCM. My base is OK, so think it'll be OK to skip a wk.....

aquinn · 08-07-2019 6:34pm

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

I've decided I'll do the meno plan again but eeks I thought I should b be in wk 2........how many weeks to DCM. My base is OK, so think it'll be OK to skip a wk.....

We're on an 18 week one so yesterday did the 14 mile run. There is no week zero so that could be your difference as marathon now on a Sunday.

This week then is the 3*2 mile at HMP - 10 mile.

Next week then accomodates the 10km race.

The Sub 4 Support Thread

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