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Threadbans vs forumbans

  • 31-12-2020 1:03pm
    #1
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Not sure if this is the best place to discuss it but it seems to me as if there is a much greater prevalence of threadbans than there used to be on boards.

    I don't want to get into specifics but I recently saw one moderator issue a single poster with two threadbans and a warning to behave or be threadbanned in a third thread in one forum within an hour recently.

    Surely it should be a case where someone should get a forum ban before accumulating two threadbans and a warning about a third in a single hour.

    Or is it a policy decision from boards to moderate more on a threadban basis?
    Post edited by Shield on


«1

Comments

  • #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Multiple threads have been ruined by the same few posters pushing the same extreme agenda all across boards. There should be much more of a 'no tolerance' policy when dealing with these posters....

    And my biggest bug bear is the allowing of obvious re-regs

    Just look at the myriad of threads re the US election and the same posters thread banned across a lot of them.


  • #3
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Threadbans allow permanent removal from a discussion. You will see, particularly in the Coronavirus forum, there are many long-running threads. If posters are repeatedly stirring things it's often easiest to simply take them out of the discussion. If a threadban is ignored, a forum ban will usually follow. However in isolation threadbans are not recorded in a user's "record". It may well be that a card or forum ban is issued at the same time, but that's certainly not always the case.

    I think the Coronavirus forum has very much highlighted the use of threadbans because of those long-running threads, but they were only used extensively over the past few years


  • #4
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    And my biggest bug bear is the allowing of obvious re-regs
    Please tell us when you report who it's a re-reg of and we will look

    I've probably banned getting on for 5,000 re-reg accounts. I reckon I can tell who's a re-reg based on a number of factors, some of which regular users have no access to. I do not appreciate someone telling me there are re-regs without making any efforts to help identify who it is a re-reg of

    And just because you think something is "obvious" does not itself make it a fact


  • #5
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Beasty wrote: »
    Threadbans allow permanent removal from a discussion. You will see, particularly in the Coronavirus forum, there are many long-running threads. If posters are repeatedly stirring things it's often easiest to simply take them out of the discussion. If a threadban is ignored, a forum ban will usually follow. However in isolation threadbans are not recorded in a user's "record". It may well be that a card or forum ban is issued at the same time, but that's certainly not always the case.

    I think the Coronavirus forum has very much highlighted the use of threadbans because of those long-running threads, but they were only used extensively over the past few years

    Just be my opinion but it should probably be the case more that people get carded when they get threadbanned.


  • #6
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Just be my opinion but it should probably be the case more that people get carded when they get threadbanned.

    Cards are weighted infractions. The reason for using a threadban is to have an action that is not weighted against a poster.


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  • #7
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Cards are weighted infractions. The reason for using a threadban is to have an action that is not weighted against a poster.

    ...and very often used because a mod forsees escalation which may well result in a "formal" sanction if a user is not removed from a discussion


  • #8
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Not sure if this is the best place to discuss it but it seems to me as if there is a much greater prevalence of threadbans than there used to be on boards.

    I don't want to get into specifics but I recently saw one moderator issue a single poster with two threadbans and a warning to behave or be threadbanned in a third thread in one forum within an hour recently.

    Surely it should be a case where someone should get a forum ban before accumulating two threadbans and a warning about a third in a single hour.

    Or is it a policy decision from boards to moderate more on a threadban basis?

    Do you mean, this was 2 threadbans for offenses on 1 thread? Or 3 threadbans for offences both on 2 categorically-related threads? Seems like it should be just threadbans in the thread the offence is committed in, if that's not what happened that seems like overreach, and where a card should have been used, or a forum ban instead.


  • #9
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Overheal wrote: »
    Do you mean, this was 2 threadbans for offenses on 1 thread? Or 3 threadbans for offences both on 2 categorically-related threads? Seems like it should be just threadbans in the thread the offence is committed in, if that's not what happened that seems like overreach, and where a card should have been used, or a forum ban instead.

    Three different threads in the same forum. Different offenses in each.

    The same moderator gave the one poster 2 threadbans in different threads and a warning on a third thread.


  • #10
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Three different threads in the same forum. Different offenses in each.

    The same moderator gave the one poster 2 threadbans in different threads and a warning on a third thread.

    That then seems like business as usual. No requirement to hand out threadbans (which requires regular checking on and enforcement), the mods could have just gone for a forum ban.


  • #11
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭This is it


    Can thread bans be disputed in DRP? Makes no sense to me if it's still the case that they cannot. I've never had a thread ban but I can see the frustration when there's an area to dispute a moderators action yet there's an action they can impose that cannot be disputed there. I know there are other places, though I don't know if it's feedback, help desk, or somewhere else, but there seems to be no reason, in my opinion, not to have everything in one place. Prison being the exception for obvious reasons.


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  • #12
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    This is it wrote: »
    Can thread bans be disputed in DRP? Makes no sense to me if it's still the case that they cannot. I've never had a thread ban but I can see the frustration when there's an area to dispute a moderators action yet there's an action they can impose that cannot be disputed there. I know there are other places, though I don't know if it's feedback, help desk, or somewhere else, but there seems to be no reason, in my opinion, not to have everything in one place. Prison being the exception for obvious reasons.

    They are not on any "record" so they do not form part of any formal appeal process. However they can be disputed, initially through discussion with the mod and then in Help Desk


  • #13
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭This is it


    Does it matter if it's part of any record when you're appealing? There's a resolution forum dedicated to this, I still don't understand from your post why it's not used for thread bans. Disputes are across three forums when it could be two. A simple change


  • #14
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This is it wrote: »
    Does it matter if it's part of any record when you're appealing? There's a resolution forum dedicated to this, I still don't understand from your post why it's not used for thread bans. Disputes are across three forums when it could be two. A simple change

    It is indeed confusing in current form.


  • #15
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    In their original "form" threadbans were usually quickly redundant as threads reached a natural conclusion.

    I guess though that the pandemic has changed all of that with a number of topics going through numerous iterations over the past 10 months, and indeed the main thread having upwards of 60 currently serving threadbans.

    My own approach to issuing threadbans is I will usually reconsider, and indeed lift, such bans if I can get some assurance from posters over future behaviour in the thread. What seems to happen in that forum is many do not bother, and indeed some forget or ignore them and end up getting a forum ban on the back of posting when threadbanned. Again my approach has been to lift such forum bans if a poster promises to abide by the threadban.

    Maybe because of these much longer running threads we should look at formalising the appeals process. To date though there has been no discussion at Admin/Office level (and some at that level are only now returning after a holiday break).

    I would though emphasise to posters it is often worth just having that PM discussion with a mod. It may result in users having specific conditions applied in return for being able to post again.

    Having said all of that, when someone gets threadbanned twice (or occasionally 3 times) from a thread I personally would not then be looking for any assurances as I would not be lifting the threadban unless there are very exceptional circumstances.


  • #16
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭This is it


    I completely understand and agree with all of that, I think threadbans are a great resource for mods, it's the appeals I was questioning. Worthy of discussion at a minimum, and no reason not to move it to DRP in my opinion. Will leave it with you, Beasty. Thanks for the replies


  • #17
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,434 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Despite going through the defined channels i'm waiting 6 days tomorrow in total (inc mentioning in another thread prior on moderator issues and in pm to Beasty and posting in Dispute Resolution) to have this thread ban addressed in help desk. Not even reassurance anyone is going to address it. How is that ok? How is it going to do anything other than anger those of us who feel we are on the end of a blatantly wrong decision?

    Whatever this 'system' is it needs to be worked on.


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058145703


  • #18
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    You do realise it's been the holiday season? There have been few Admins around and two extremely time-consuming topics keeping those of us who are around busy.

    Oh and your thread was started around 12 on New Years Day which I make less that 3 and a half days ago

    When I'm back on my laptop I will have a look though


  • #19
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,434 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Thanks fair enough but I actually mentioned it in another thread before hand in help desk on the 30th...

    It doesn't take much just to let someone know it's being looked at.

    Thanks.


  • #20
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Cards are weighted infractions. The reason for using a threadban is to have an action that is not weighted against a poster.

    And forum bans are they "weighted" etc?


  • #21
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    gozunda wrote: »
    And forum bans are they "weighted" etc?

    Of course they are

    Forum bans are the maximum (subject to exceptions for spammers) sanction a mod can hand out

    In theory CMods can issue bans at Category level but I am not aware of any such bans being issued, certainly while I've been an Admin

    Sitebans can be handed out by Admins and in doing so if we see a large number of recent forum bans that will weigh heavily against a user. And that's always been the case


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  • #22
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    I got a ban yesterday from current affairs without a warning story for another day.

    Anyway I can't access the coronavirus forum or current affairs forum yet I can access soccer, after hours etc.

    I asked the mod about this and was told I was the ban is from Boards as a whole for a week.

    Totally confused.


  • #23
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭This is it


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    I got a ban yesterday from current affairs without a warning story for another day.

    Anyway I can't access the coronavirus forum or current affairs forum yet I can access soccer, after hours etc.

    I asked the mod about this and was told I was the ban is from Boards as a whole for a week.

    Totally confused.

    C19 is a sub forum of Current Affairs I presume so your ban will cross both forums, After Hours and Soccer aren't part of the Current Affairs forum so you can still post there


  • #24
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Yes a forum bans extend to all sub-forums of that forum


  • #25
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Ahh I get it.

    Thanks.


  • #26
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Beasty wrote: »
    Of course they are

    Forum bans are the maximum (subject to exceptions for spammers) sanction a mod can hand out

    *In theory CMods can issue bans at Category level but I am not aware of any such bans being issued, certainly while I've been an Admin

    Sitebans can be handed out by Admins and in doing so if we see a large number of recent forum bans that will weigh heavily against a user. And that's always been the case

    OK thanks for the explanation but then who normally issues forum bans if not cmods?


  • #27
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    gozunda wrote: »
    OK thanks for the explanation but then who normally issues forum bans if not cmods?

    Forum mods, who also issue cards and indeed threadbans

    CMods may sometimes step in if there are no mods about, and Admins do occasionally get involved (outside any forums that are also mods for, such as CA and Coronavirus for me) if they think something is getting out of hand


  • #28
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Just to add if we see a porn link or threat of legal action Admins will go straight to a siteban. It's worth checking out the site ToU and FAQs as blatant breaches of site rules will often result in sitebans.


  • #29
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just to add if we see a porn link or threat of legal action Admins will go straight to a siteban. It's worth checking out the site ToU and FAQs as blatant breaches of site rules will often result in sitebans.

    So I guess someone being refused permission to sell porn and threatening legal action would be a definitive no then ;)

    Apologies for the qs - but there's just one piece I can see about forums and bans or have I missed it?


    This from Faqs
    What is a forum ban? A forum ban happens when a user has consistently broken that forum’s rules (as per it’s charter) and/or boards.ie site rules. It

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/faq.php?faq=bie_faq_im_new_here#faq_bie_faq_im_new_here_forumban


  • #30
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    gozunda wrote: »
    And forum bans are they "weighted" etc?

    Along with Beasty's comments on how they are assessed, when you go onto your user profile you should see an infractions tab. There should be a column that refers to "Points / Expires." This is what I was referencing when I mentioned weighting earlier.


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  • #31
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,196 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Apologies Dravokivic, but I think the "points" position needs more clarification

    Going back well before my time on the site (possibly to it's inception) a "points" system was used that would drive automatic sitebans

    A yellow card received no points. A red card received 1 point. Any user picking up 9 "active" points would receive an automatic siteban. Points "expire" after 10 days. However the points system was the only way regular mods could siteban someone and a process called "9 pointing" evolved - it became a way to siteban a spammer when there were no Admins about

    Beyond that these points serve no purpose. A forum ban is a higher sanction than a red card, but it is processed differently and does not appear in a user's profile.

    We really do pay no attention to any points except when dealing with spammers. At a forum level mods will look at cards and bans issued in their forum and sanctions may escalate for posters regularly falling foul of the rules

    Likewise at site level we will look at cards and bans across the board, and if someone has a particularly poor record we will consider a straight siteban, or applying probation (which is a warning that any more cards or bans (anywhere on the site) in a set period (typically 3 months) and a minimum 1 month, 3 month or perhaps permanent siteban will be applied


This discussion has been closed.
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