Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

JFK Assassination Autopsy Details Revealed After 55 Years

1246770

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    The Nal wrote: »
    It is seen on video. Clear as day. Fragments moving forward and his brain moving forward.

    frontmenu_i000045.jpg

    His head also moves forward first. I won't post it again since you've ignored it all the other times it was posted.



    How can a shot from the front cause an exit wound at the front? :confused: The left of his head was fine, which it would not have been with a shot from the right. If he was shot from the front right the exit wound would've been at the back left.

    Explain these points please

    1. JFKs head moving forward briefly before the bullet exited
    2. The spray from the wound moving forward
    3. The exit wound at the front right of his head
    4. The people on the steps, Zapruder and the people near the knoll all ignoring a high powered rifle going off behind their heads. You keep dodging this.

    The Bullet fragments could have got embedded in the skull and brain.

    Pathologist James C. Jenkins confirmed when they received Kennedy body he noticed incisions that should be present. He believes someone tampered with the body when it left Parkland. They probably removed bullet fragments.

    It a hollow explosive bullet that did it.

    The witnesses all reporting hearing a shot come from the grassy knoll. I just posted eyewitnesses accounts of smelling gunpowder at street level, of course, you ignore that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    You can analyse the doctored footage all you want. The reality is all of the doctors that treated Kennedy report the back of his skull and brain was blown out. A clear exit wound which single handed proves the headshot came from the front.

    Jackie wasn't trying to escape the car, she was a grabbing a piece of JFK's skull/brain off the back of the car. The motorcycle guys behind reported being splattered with blowback from the headshot.

    He was also shot in the neck prior to the alleged shot to his back that hit him and connally. You can clearly see him clutching his throat with a worried Jackie looking at him and Connally turning around before the alleged shot that hit his back, came out his neck and hit Connally.

    This neck wound was hidden with the alleged tracheotomy.

    Why anyone would even perform a tracheotomy on someone with half of their brain and skull missing is beyond me anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    BloodBath wrote: »
    You can analyse the doctored footage all you want. The reality is all of the doctors that treated Kennedy report the back of his skull and brain was blown out. A clear exit wound which single handed proves the headshot came from the front.

    Jackie wasn't trying to escape the car, she was a grabbing a piece of JFK's skull/brain off the back of the car. The motorcycle guys behind reported being splattered with blowback from the headshot.

    He was also shot in the neck prior to the alleged shot to his back that hit him and connally. You can clearly see him clutching his throat with a worried Jackie looking at him and Connally turning around before the alleged shot that hit his back, came out his neck and hit Connally.

    This neck wound was hidden with the alleged tracheotomy.

    Smoking gun is people smelling gunpowder at the street level and seeing smoke near the grassy knoll.

    Highly credible people like Senators and Police officers testified they smelled gunpowder and saw smoke rising from the trees.

    From the article i posted
    For witnesses to have smelled gunpowder on the street in proximity to the motorcade can only suggest (due to the wind factor and the forensic maxim of plume of residue) that a firearm was discharged in the immediate vicinity of the motorcade. But who discharged a firearm so close to the scene as to cause the odour of gunpowder? Certainly gunpowder from Lee Harvey Oswald's weapon would not be evident at street level with him secreted eighty metres away from the motorcade, on the sixth floor of a building, behind a window, crouched down and wedged between boxes of books. If the gunpowder from Oswald's weapon was able to waft or drift it would either have been contained within the building or, if it drifted through Oswald's window, would have dissipated in the opposite direction to the travelling motorcade, into the atmosphere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Characteristically, gunpowder or gunshot residue will linger within a two- to three-metre radius of the weapon, for a time of up to a minute after a shooting, sometimes longer, dependent on the wind and other factors. There are plenty of examples in crime scene records where gunshot residue has lingered for an extraordinary length of time and wafted over a greater distance than initially thought. This wafting is known as a plume of residue, and it omits a distinct smell of gunpowder. The plume of residue has been used many times in homicide and shooting investigations worldwide to determine whether a suspect was involved in the firing of a gun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    I wouldn't call that the smoking gun. It's circumstantial evidence at best.

    Why focus on that when there is concrete hard medical based evidence that the killshot came from the front.

    Another interesting fact. Oswald had no gunpowder residue on his face, cloths or hands. Virtually impossible if he fired any shots.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    BloodBath wrote: »
    I wouldn't call that the smoking gun. It's circumstantial evidence at best.

    Why focus on that when there is concrete hard medical based evidence that the killshot came from the front.

    Another interesting fact. Oswald had no gunpowder residue on his face, cloths or hands. Virtually impossible if he fired any shots.

    Nope. He tested positive for gunpowder via a paraffin test on his hand. Negative on his cheek. But that doesn't matter. Paraffin test were very unreliable in 1963.
    The Bullet fragments could have got embedded in the skull and brain.

    Pathologist James C. Jenkins confirmed when they received Kennedy body he noticed incisions that should be present. He believes someone tampered with the body when it left Parkland. They probably removed bullet fragments.

    It a hollow explosive bullet that did it.

    The witnesses all reporting hearing a shot come from the grassy knoll. I just posted eyewitnesses accounts of smelling gunpowder at street level, of course, you ignore that.

    So you've ignored the 4 questions I asked....... they smelled gunpowder with 2-3 metres but didn't hear a rifle going off from that distance?

    BloodBath wrote: »
    You can analyse the doctored footage all you want. The reality is all of the doctors that treated Kennedy report the back of his skull and brain was blown out.

    They all said there was a wound to the posterior parietal area, which is where the bullet entered.

    Its quite simple, how he had wounds at the back and sides. All consistent to the millimetre with a shot from the TSBD.

    JFK_skull_trajectory.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    It's amazing people are still basing Kennedys injury on the video and drawings.

    All of the doctors who treated Kennedy that day report the back of his head and brain was blown out. A clear exit wound. Explain that.

    You don't have to use drawings or tampered low resolution blurry video. We have hard medical evidence from the most reliable witnesses you could have.

    That drawing does not match the wound the doctors reported. All of them. So you are contesting the statements of 4+ medical professionals who treated Kennedy that day.

    Here are some of the doctors all reporting the same exit wound injury to the back of the head in Occipital Parietal area. That does not match that drawing.

    Go to 6:20. Pay close attention to the exact area the doctor shows with his hand and describes that was blown out. It does not match your drawings. Your evidence is a drawing. Mine is statements from the doctors who treated him that day which are documented here so you can't try and change their statements. Which one do you think is more reliable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    BloodBath wrote: »
    It's amazing people are still basing Kennedys injury on the video and drawings.

    You don't have to use drawings or tampered low resolution blurry video. We have hard medical evidence from the most reliable witnesses you could have.

    That drawing does not match the wound the doctors reported. All of them. So you are contesting the statements of 4+ medical professionals who treated Kennedy that day.

    Here are some of the doctors all reporting the same exit wound inury to the back of the head in Occipital Parietal area. That does not match that drawing.


    JFK was lying on his back the entire time they were in Trauma Room 1. There was blood and brain and hair everywhere.
    BloodBath wrote: »
    All of the doctors who treated Kennedy that day report the back of his head and brain was blown out. A clear exit wound. Explain that.

    Easy to explain because its not true!

    Dr Baxter
    "we had an opportunity to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, that is, in a word — literally the right side of his head had been blown off."

    Dr Carrico
    Q. "Was the President's body then ever turned over at any point by you or any of the other doctors at Parkland?"

    Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

    Q. Was President Kennedy lying on the emergency stretcher from the time he was brought into trauma room one until the treatment at Parkland Hospital was concluded?

    Dr. Carrico. Yes; he was.

    Q. Why did you not take the time to turn him over?

    Dr. Carrico. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more thorough inspection would have involved several minutes-well, several — considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back, and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient.

    Dr Akin
    Q. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound in the back of the head?
    Dr. Akin. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck.

    So, again, 4 questions....

    1. JFKs head moving forward briefly before the bullet exited
    2. The spray from the wound moving forward
    3. The exit wound at the front right of his head
    4. The people on the steps, Zapruder and the people near the knoll all ignoring a high powered rifle going off behind their heads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Funny but here's Carricos Warren commission statement. Also reporting the missing skull in the Occipital region which does not match your drawing.

    Mr. SPECTER - What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
    Dr. CARRICO - The head wound, the head injury.
    Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe as specifically as you can the head wound which you have already mentioned briefly?
    Dr. CARRICO - Sure.
    This was a 5- by 71-cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more profuse bleeding from this wound.
    Mr. SPECTER - Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to this large opening where the skull was absent?
    Dr. CARRICO - No other wound on the head.

    And here is Akins

    Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him?
    Dr. AKIN - There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding.

    Also Clarke who examined the head wound.

    Dr. CLARK - The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted. in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube . I then examined the President briefly.
    My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.
    I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/carrico1.htm
    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/akin.htm
    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/clark_w.htm

    1920px-Sobo_1909_104.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    BloodBath wrote: »
    I wouldn't call that the smoking gun. It's circumstantial evidence at best.

    Why focus on that when there is concrete hard medical based evidence that the killshot came from the front.

    Another interesting fact. Oswald had no gunpowder residue on his face, cloths or hands. Virtually impossible if he fired any shots.

    He had residue on his hands but not his cheek. This is down to the 2 types of guns he fired that day, the handgun he used to kill Officer Tippett left residue but the rifle could not because of the closed chamber.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Funny but here's Carricos Warren commission statement. Also reporting the missing skull in the Occipital region which does not match your drawing.

    Mr. SPECTER - What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
    Dr. CARRICO - The head wound, the head injury.
    Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe as specifically as you can the head wound which you have already mentioned briefly?
    Dr. CARRICO - Sure.
    This was a 5- by 71-cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more profuse bleeding from this wound.
    Mr. SPECTER - Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to this large opening where the skull was absent?
    Dr. CARRICO - No other wound on the head.

    And here is Akins

    Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him?
    Dr. AKIN - There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding.

    Also Clarke who examined the head wound.

    Dr. CLARK - The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted. in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube . I then examined the President briefly.
    My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.
    I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/carrico1.htm
    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/akin.htm
    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/clark_w.htm

    Sigh

    Semantics. Read about the ambiguity of the "occipital region".

    Read Dr Malcolm Perrys testimony.

    Mr. SPECTER - Have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report?
    Dr. PERRY - I have.
    Mr. SPECTER - And are the facts set forth in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in any way with your findings and opinions?
    Dr. PERRY - They are quite consistent and I noted initially that they explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time.

    ..... we did what was necessary in the emergency procedure, and abandoned any efforts of examination at the termination.

    Mr. SPECTER - From what direction would the bullets have come based on all of those factors?
    Dr. PERRY - The bullets would have come from behind the President based on these factors.

    Mr. SPECTER - Based upon a point of entrance in the body of the President which I described to you as being 14 cm. from the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down?
    Dr. PERRY - Yes, it would.
    In view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind.


    So, err, all of the doctors believed the shots came from the front and the back of the head was "blown away" and "blasted out"?

    The mad 20 minute scramble to save his life, the situation didn't lend itself to an accurate analysis. Never mind an autopsy. Simple as that.

    He had residue on his hands but not his cheek. This is down to the 2 types of guns he fired that day, the handgun he used to kill Officer Tippett left residue but the rifle could not because of the closed chamber.

    Mark Lane and Jim Marrs lied about this and people believed them. They still do. And when called up on it, as we have with the lads here, they ignore it.

    Its baffling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Perry didn't even examine the head so how he can come to a conclusion that the bullet came from the rear is beyond me.

    There are many more modern accounts from the doctors who actually examined the head injury. All of them claim a rear exit wound. I suggest you do your research. I'm not scouring the internet for you while you rely on only the warren ommision report.

    Here's another one. Note the area of the skull brain he shows with his hand that was missing matches identically to the previous video and not the drawing. Also note he says Mrs kennedy handed him a portion of JFK's brain in Parkland. This is the piece she retrieved from the boot of the car directly after the shooting. How was this blown backwards if the shot came from the rear? Why did the motorcycle security report being sprayed with debris from the shot if it came from the rear? The car was practically at a standstill when the headshot occurred so they didn't just drive through the spray.



    Ok The paraffin test is not reliable, let's stick to facts here. How are you discounting the opinions of these doctors. The majority of which believe a rear exit wound in the back of the head.

    I suggest you read though the witness testimonies and lines of questioning and you will see how much leading questions were asked and the amount of testimonies that didn't make it to the warren omission. Anything that didn't go along with Oswald being the lone shooter was omitted or covered up.

    I can bring the CE399 magic bullet as well. Anyone who believes that single bullet caused all the claimed wounds is a total idiot. There have been 0 tests that match the lack of deformation of this bullet firing into a single target. This bullet allegedly shattered several bones including the strong wrist bone leaving the bullet with minimal damage.

    It also left many fragments inside Kennedys body, and Connalys body yet it lost almost none of it's weight to account for those fragments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Perry didn't even examine the head so how he can come to a conclusion that the bullet came from the rear is beyond me.

    There are many more modern accounts from the doctors who actually examined the head injury. All of them claim a rear exit wound. I suggest you do your research. I'm not scouring the internet for you while you rely on only the warren ommision report.

    Here's another one. Note the area of the skull brain he shows with his hand that was missing matches identically to the previous video and not the drawing.



    Ok The paraffin test is not reliable, let's stick to facts here. How are you discounting the opinions of these doctors. The majority of which believe a rear exit wound in the back of the head.

    I suggest you read though the witness testimonies and lines of questioning and you will see how much leading questions were asked and the amount of testimonies that didn't make it to the warren omission. Anything that didn't go along with Oswald being the lone shooter was omitted or covered up.

    Ive done all that. Started in the 90s.

    McClellend was in the trauma room for about 5 minutes. None of them examined the wound. They were trying to save his life. None of them, by their own admission cleaned any wounds to see properly and they didnt even turn him over!

    Agree with the leading questions. Arlen Specter was dreadful for it. But I agree with his conclusions.

    Why dont you believe the single bullet theory?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    The single bullet theory is bull****. That's why. There has not been a single repeatable test that shows the same lack of deformation even when shot into softer single targets.

    There is virtually no lead loss from the bullet with only a few grains missing. There are more fragments inside Connally and Kennedy from this alleged bullet than there was missing weight making it impossible that this bullet caused all of those wounds.

    That's not even taking into account the possibility of more lead loss outside of the bodies.

    If you are big into this topic then you should know there's a lot more to it than these snippets. I've read the entire police and warren witness testimonies. Also research LBJ and the kind of man he was. The guy was complete scum with the motive to do it with his CIA buddies.

    Kennedy seen what the CIA was becoming and he was right. Now look at them today and the **** they are responsible for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    BloodBath wrote: »
    The single bullet theory is bull****. That's why. There has not been a single repeatable test that shows the same lack of deformation even when shot into softer single targets.

    There is virtually no lead loss from the bullet with only a few grains missing. There are more fragments inside Connally and Kennedy from this alleged bullet than there was missing weight making it impossible that this bullet caused all of those wounds.

    That's not even taking into account the possibility of more lead loss outside of the bodies.

    If you are big into this topic then you should know there's a lot more to it than these snippets. I've read the entire police and warren witness testimonies. Also research LBJ and the kind of man he was. The guy was complete scum with the motive to do it with his CIA buddies.

    Kennedy seen what the CIA was becoming and he was right. Now look at them today and the **** they are responsible for.

    To think LBJ would put himself and his wife in the firing line of ‘multiple shooters’ makes no sense at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    To think LBJ would put himself and his wife in the firing line of ‘multiple shooters’ makes no sense at all.

    Yet he ducked into his car before the alleged shooting even started. The man was a psychopath. They don't fear death and what better alibi than being there yourself. This is a typical fallacy of people who don't understand sociopaths and psychopaths. What makes sense to you doesn't apply to everyone.


    Also even the warren omission ballistics experts didn't think CE399 could possibly have been the bullet that caused all of those wounds. Let's not forget the 2 larger fragments and multiple smaller ones recovered from the vehicle that are far more consistent with the kind of bullet deformation you expect for the types of bone injurys received.

    I believe the majority of these fragments were from the Connally hit as shattering his tough wrist bone would have also obliterated the bullet as it did his wrist. Kennedy had clearly already been shot before Connally as Connally himself reported turning to react to the first shot he heard before being hit himself with the second shot.

    CE399 was a crucial piece of evidence that tied directly to Oswalds gun. It does not fit the official story in any capacity though. It could not possible have been the single bullet or the headshot bullet or the bullet that allegedly missed but it's clear 3 shots hit so if any missed then there were at least 4 shots.

    Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388?
    Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir.

    Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

    Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely ... The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations.

    Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?

    Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile.

    Representative FORD. The missile identified as Exhibit 399.

    Commander HUMES. 399, sir.

    Mr. SPECTER. And could it [CE 399] have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
    Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist.

    From Mr. Frazier, FBI firearms expert:

    Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you determine the weight of the exhibit-that is, 399?
    Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Exhibit 399 weighs 158.6 grains.

    Mr. EISENBERG. How much weight loss does that show from the original bullet weight?

    Mr. FRAZIER. We measured several standard bullets, and their weights varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two grains, from 161 grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of 161 grains. One weighed--- 160.85, 161.5, 161.1 grains.

    Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, was there any weight loss?

    Mr. FRAZIER. There did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to the bullet. There may be a slight amount of lead missing from the base of the bullet, since it is exposed at the base, and the bullet is slightly flattened; there could be a slight weight loss from the end of the bullet, but it would not amount to more than 4 grains, because 158.6 is only a grain and a half less than the normal weight, and at least a 2 grain variation would be allowed. So it would be approximately 3 or 4 grains.

    . . .

    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in Commission Exhibit 840 to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399?

    Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is--its weight when I first received it was 158.6 grains.

    Mr. SPECTER. Referring now to 399.

    Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 399, and its original normal weight would be 160 to 161 grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of 2.1 grains as I recall--2.3 grains. So it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet 399 missing.

    Mr. SPECTER: What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?
    Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet. (Discussion off the record.)

    Dr. Shaw's testimony is interrupted at this point, and "off the record" discussions take place. Later...

    Dr. SHAW: All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missle could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be more that three grains of metal missing as far as the--I mean in the wrist.
    Mr. SPECTOR: Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off?

    Dr. SHAW: I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance.

    http://www.jfk-info.com/fragment.htm

    1 last thing. This is 1 of the many tests trying to replicate the shot and bullet deformation. This was shot into a goat carcass shattering ribs. It did not simulate also shattering an extremely tough human wrist bone and look at the severe deformation compared to CE399. This was the best example of multiple test shots.

    figure_8_sml.jpg

    and another one compared to CE399

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpBUKvCtMfGSc1WYh6fyenLC2m5-GFPLK-JczB_Tu9afLhYC4YnQ

    and another one that was shot into a human wrist cadaver compared to CE399. Note the missing brass from the tip of CE399 was taken by the FBI for analysis and a little from the lead base. The test shot is the massively deformed bullet to the right.

    ce399composite.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Yet he ducked into his car before the alleged shooting even started. The man was a psychopath. They don't fear death and what better alibi than being there yourself. This is a typical fallacy of people who don't understand sociopaths and psychopaths. What makes sense to you doesn't apply to everyone.


    What do you mean he ducked?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    It's well documented and even photographed that LBJ was leaning over low in his car before the shots even started firing. He claims he was pushed down by secret service after the event but another Senator who was in the car with him said he was stooped down low listening to some radio he had with him. He was also photographed in this position directly before the shooting started.

    Not suspicious at all eh? Not gonna dwell on circumstantial evidence like that though. It's just interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    BloodBath wrote: »
    I wouldn't call that the smoking gun. It's circumstantial evidence at best.

    Why focus on that when there is concrete hard medical based evidence that the killshot came from the front.

    Another interesting fact. Oswald had no gunpowder residue on his face, cloths or hands. Virtually impossible if he fired any shots.

    I think it is a smoking gun as there not just one eyewitness who smelled it on the street.

    I agree with you about the medical evidence. The doctors have no reason to lie the US government, on the other hand, has reason to cover up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    The Nal wrote: »
    Nope. He tested positive for gunpowder via a paraffin test on his hand. Negative on his cheek. But that doesn't matter. Paraffin test were very unreliable in 1963.



    So you've ignored the 4 questions I asked....... they smelled gunpowder with 2-3 metres but didn't hear a rifle going off from that distance?




    They all said there was a wound to the posterior parietal area, which is where the bullet entered.

    Its quite simple, how he had wounds at the back and sides. All consistent to the millimetre with a shot from the TSBD.

    JFK_skull_trajectory.jpg

    I don't know about that as seven marksmen tested a rifle like Oswald and they all tested positive for barium and antimony (paraffin test) on their cheeks.

    Oswald was looking through a scope so obviously, the weapons touched his face but they found no trace on his cheek, weird.

    They did hear a gunshot from the grassy knoll. What do you think the onlookers all ran in that direction on the day?. Nobody ran to where Oswald was till later.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    BloodBath wrote: »
    It's well documented and even photographed that LBJ was leaning over low in his car before the shots even started firing. He claims he was pushed down by secret service after the event but another Senator who was in the car with him said he was stooped down low listening to some radio he had with him. He was also photographed in this position directly before the shooting started.

    Not suspicious at all eh? Not gonna dwell on circumstantial evidence like that though. It's just interesting.

    It’s not suspicious because it’s not true. Plus his wife was in the car with him which makes it even more laughable to think he was ducking and listening to radios.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    33 Witnesses reported shots from the grassy knoll, all omitted from the warren commission.

    It’s not suspicious because it’s not true. Plus his wife was in the car with him which makes it even more laughable to think he was ducking and listening to radios.

    Fine it's contentious and I said I'm not focusing on it. How about trying to contest the CE399 evidence. I haven't seen a single 1 of you sceptics willing to tackle this as I've brought it up before here. It's the usual deflection.

    Keep in mind this was the main piece of evidence linking to Oswald's gun and all of the firearms experts on the Warren commission believed it was not possible that this was the single bullet or that it could even cause 1 of those injurys in the shape it was in. The tests to try and repeat it also confirm their assertions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    BloodBath wrote: »
    The single bullet theory is bull****. That's why. There has not been a single repeatable test that shows the same lack of deformation even when shot into softer single targets.

    Thats not true.



    As for the single bullet, its the only explanation.



    All the other stuff - LBJ ducking, it was the mob, they wanted him dead because he was breaking up the CIA etc, its just speculation. Waffle. No evidence at all for it.

    LBJ was nasty yes, JFK had enemies yes. But theres no evidence beyond speculation to link LBJ, the CIA, the mob or anyone else but Oswald to it. Literally not one decent scrap of evidence, 55 years later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,058 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    BloodBath wrote: »
    33 Witnesses reported shots from the grassy knoll, all omitted from the warren commission.

    My understanding is that most of those witnesses reported hearing shots only from the grassy knoll area. That of course would be impossible given the wounds inflicted on Kennedy and Connally clearly originated from shots that came from above and behind them. Only a handful of people claimed to hear shots from both the TSBD and the knoll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    My understanding is that most of those witnesses reported hearing shots only from the grassy knoll area. That of course would be impossible given the wounds inflicted on Kennedy and Connally clearly originated from shots that came from above and behind them. Only a handful of people claimed to hear shots from both the TSBD and the knoll.

    In the last few pages we gone from

    - The majority of people heard shots from the knoll to "oh maybe not"
    - All of the doctors said the back of his head was blown out to "oh maybe not"
    - The parrafin tests proved he had no gunpowder on his hand to "oh actually he did".

    Now apparently LBJ ducked and theres photos to prove it but they're not worthy of posting here.

    We're dealing with life long conspiracy theorists here, who can't see past it.

    I used to believe in a conspiracy but if you study it enough its sadly not one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    The Nal wrote: »
    In the last few pages we gone from

    - The majority of people heard shots from the knoll to "oh maybe not"
    - All of the doctors said the back of his head was blown out to "oh maybe not"
    - The parrafin tests proved he had no gunpowder on his hand to "oh actually he did".

    Now apparently LBJ ducked and theres photos to prove it but they're not worthy of posting here.

    We're dealing with life long conspiracy theorists here, who can't see past it.

    I used to believe in a conspiracy but if you study it enough its sadly not one.


    I used to believe there was a conspiracy but one photo proved to me it was LHO. It was the inside of the limo JFK was traveling in. I never knew Connolly was in a lower jump seat 6 inches to the left of JFK. Everything just clicked then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,420 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    I used to believe there was a conspiracy but one photo proved to me it was LHO. It was the inside of the limo JFK was traveling in. I never knew Connolly was in a lower jump seat 6 inches to the left of JFK. Everything just clicked then.

    Conspiracy theorists always leave that bit out. Its absolutely crucial and poisonous behaviour.

    I believed in a conspiracy initially too but having read maybe 15 books, both pro and anti conspiracy, watched every documentary there is multiple times and read hundreds of hours online and visited Dealey Plaza and the TSBD myself I just can't see any evidence let alone anything approaching proof.

    Common sense usually prevails. Theres a few common sense points that just don't add up. Points the CTs here still refuse to touch.

    The people nearest to the knoll not hearing the shot.
    The conspirators letting Oswald use a an cheap rifle for the biggest assassination in human history.
    Oswald not being taken out when he left the TSBD.
    Oswald taking the bus as a means of escape.
    Ruby shooting Oswald in the stomach. Less than a 10% chance of killing him.
    Ruby being in the western union a few minutes before killing Oswald.
    Ruby bringing his dogs and leaving them in the car.
    JFKs head moving forward.
    The right side of his head exploding from a shot to the right.

    And so on.

    Can you imagine the conversation between Oswald and the CIA, Cubans, mafia, Russians.

    "OK Lee so December 22nd is go time, do you have a gun?"

    "Yeah"

    "Is it a good one?"

    "No its a $12 mail order rifle with a shítty scope".

    "Errr, ah sure that'll do, use that".

    "How do I escape?"

    "Just get the bus I suppose".

    People seem to have a world view that "they" control everything and its just not the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    The Nal wrote: »
    Thats not true.



    As for the single bullet, its the only explanation.



    All the other stuff - LBJ ducking, it was the mob, they wanted him dead because he was breaking up the CIA etc, its just speculation. Waffle. No evidence at all for it.

    LBJ was nasty yes, JFK had enemies yes. But theres no evidence beyond speculation to link LBJ, the CIA, the mob or anyone else but Oswald to it. Literally not one decent scrap of evidence, 55 years later.

    It is true attempts were made to replicate the magic bullet flight path and damage and nobody has had any success in 60 years. Same Bullets tested all got warped and deformed in tests. This bullet had to penetrate the back of Connelly and Kennedy, so there no way the head of the bullet would look like the bullet found on a stretcher at Parkland.

    The Doctors who did the autopsy and were there trying to save Kennedy life testify that they saw different wounds to the head.

    Warren Commission is claiming miracle shots happened instead of accepting the obvious that two shooters were involved and was just a case of different shots from two different guns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    The Nal wrote: »
    In the last few pages we gone from

    - The majority of people heard shots from the knoll to "oh maybe not"
    - All of the doctors said the back of his head was blown out to "oh maybe not"
    - The parrafin tests proved he had no gunpowder on his hand to "oh actually he did".

    Now apparently LBJ ducked and theres photos to prove it but they're not worthy of posting here.

    We're dealing with life long conspiracy theorists here, who can't see past it.

    I used to believe in a conspiracy but if you study it enough its sadly not one.

    There are photographs of LBJ not shown in the car when it passed the TBD, but that could be a trick of the light at an angle. If you want to see this photo, I will post it? I don't use this because there could be another explanation for why he does not appear to be sitting up in the car?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    My understanding is that most of those witnesses reported hearing shots only from the grassy knoll area. That of course would be impossible given the wounds inflicted on Kennedy and Connally clearly originated from shots that came from above and behind them. Only a handful of people claimed to hear shots from both the TSBD and the knoll.

    Not impossible if you accept there were two shooters firing in a crossfire. One firing his gun from behind the motorcade and one firing from the right front.

    Instead, the Warren Commission claims one single lone bullet went through Kennedy thick suit jacket, then penetrated the back skin of Kennedy, did damage inside, then exited out the throat, then reentered Connelly back near the right shoulder, caused damage to the rib, exited out through the chest, and then the bullet damaged his right wrist and fragments from the bullet then lodged in his thigh.

    One bullet not deformed with just a small break of the casing at the top of the bullet did all this?


Advertisement