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Offcuts - the general chat thread

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    #62
    ennisa
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭ennisa


    Croppy interesting link to the portfolio's where do they get the nice wood is what I always want to know! Some interesting stuff!


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    #63
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Here's a little project that I've been working on lately, with the help of a neighbour whom supplied me with a number of the raw materials (pipe, fittings etc) I was able to put this together!

    Its a canon that fires offcuts and waste timber! :D Ah no, its a steamer for softening up wood prior to bending/forming it.

    Its 8ft long, figured it'd be better to have it too long than too short! The pipe is 160mm diameter. The steam comes from an Earlex 5 litre wallpaper steamer which runs for about 70mins when full.

    It all folds away and disconnects for easy storage. There is a vent on the top to allow the steam to escape (wouldnt want any pressure related explosions! :p) and a drain hole at the bottom to let the condensed water run out. I still have to put a few threaded rods through it so as to give the timber something to sit up on and allow the steam to get at all sides.

    It seems pretty effective from the quick tests I did, especially on some pieces of oak, about 20mm square and 2ft long, after about 10 mins in the steamer it was easy enough to bend to a right angle by hand!

    steamer1.jpg

    steamer2.jpg
    The rubber was removed from the coupled at this end so the end cap could be easily taken off to allow access. Although the rubber is gone the cap still has a fairly snug fit.

    steamer4.jpg
    A 3/8" fitting fixed to the rear cap allowed the hose from the steamer to be connected easily.

    steamer5.jpg
    The steam source! I had considered making a fire box and burning offcuts etc to boil water but I figured it'd be a bit messy, smokey and smelly! A gas cylinder, ring and kettle were also an option, but I think the electric way (although not cheap I suppose) was the cleanest and easiest route.

    steamer3.jpg
    She's cooking! ;)


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    #64
    dubtom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭dubtom


    I've seen similar but far more complicted versions croppy,have to say your looks the easiest to make with the same results. I've been planning on building a banjo for quite a while now,turning the rim was causing me a headache mounting wise.Steaming is actually the prefared method by all the big names like Gibson ect,I'd ruled it out because it looked so time consuming and complicated (for me) to build a steamer.This looks like just the thing.Good man.

    ?,did you actually make a couple of horses for your steamer to sit on,you certainly don't do things by halves.


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    #65
    ennisa
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭ennisa


    marvellous, never occured to me that it could be so easy to make one. Maybe mine could double as a cannon too though. Those cats keep crapping in my garden...... hmmmmm


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    #66
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Yes Tom I did make the two horses :D, I might make a third just to support it in the middle. I might get another small bit of pipe also and make a small steamer just for lenghts that are only a couple of feet long as it seems a bit over kill to set the heavy bugger up just for small bits.

    Any, heres a cupla projects that I've finished. Unfortunately I have no WIP pics, sorry, I kept meaning to take photos but couldnt pull myself away from the work long enough to go get the camera 8)

    aa3.jpg


    The table I've wanted to make for a while, its made of ash and slate. I call this one 'Brígid', many kudo's to the first person whom can guess why I called it that! :wink:. I have an abundance of blue banger slates here and figured I'd put some of them to use. I had intended on putting a rim around the edge of the table, steam a band of walnut perhaps, but then I liked the raw edge of the slate when cut and smothed somewhat.

    The large candle holder, well, I dont know what to call that 'The Thing' maybe :lol:. The centre, barley twist piece was up until last Saturday a piece of oak that I had laying about the shop for a few years, previous to that it was an oak post that held up a fence in the garden for 12+ years! The thing is rock solid!! Wish I had of kept more of it now! :oops:

    So I grabbed it last Saturday and had a go at doing a freehand barley twist and then wondered what I could use it as, I thought maybe four legs would work? Then I guessed I could use it as a large candle holder! No planning went into that one at all I'm afraid, just a spur of the moment thing.

    aa2.jpg

    aa5.jpg

    aa1.jpg

    aa4.jpg


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    #67
    Double Barrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Double Barrel


    Mantis.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Large_brown_mantid07_edit.jpg


    I like the steamer! .....More sophisticated than my fire job for sure ....... Where are the lobsters? :D I'll bring the butter & libation?


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    #68
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Double Barrel wrote: »
    Mantis.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Large_brown_mantid07_edit.jpg


    I like the steamer! .....More sophisticated than my fire job for sure ....... Where are the lobsters? :D I'll bring the butter & libation?

    Mantis, hmmmm, you might be onto something there! ;), whats the Irish for mantis? I could just stick a fada on it 'An Mántus'.......:D


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    #69
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    ennisa wrote: »
    marvellous, never occured to me that it could be so easy to make one. Maybe mine could double as a cannon too though. Those cats keep crapping in my garden...... hmmmmm

    I'm not sure that really is a steamer :confused: I think its a wmd (weapon of mass destruction - remeber those).

    Compare croppy's picks with these
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spud_gun
    http://www.members.tripod.com/potatogunwarrior/
    it would only take some minor modifications and don't they grow some really big spuds around Carlow?


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    #70
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    ttm wrote: »
    I'm not sure that really is a steamer :confused: I think its a wmd (weapon of mass destruction - remeber those).

    Compare croppy's picks with these
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spud_gun
    http://www.members.tripod.com/potatogunwarrior/
    it would only take some minor modifications and don't they grow some really big spuds around Carlow?

    Better be careful when I have it setup outside so, dont want any of those satellites taking snaps of me and mistaking it for something else! :P


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    #71
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Ok, maybe a stupid question, and I probably should know better by now, but there is always one thing that has confused me. Red deal and white deal, they are 'pine', right? Or is 'pine' another type of softwood, or, perhaps a generic term for softwoods?

    I've always associated red and white deal as being a cheap, constuction type timber, not that used for furniture making.

    The reason I ask is because I'd like to do some work with some softwood (has to be cheap), but the only stuff the local timber yard sells is good, but its very light and for the most part loosely grained, ie, it wont take much, if any detail on a lathe. Is there a harder, denser softwood, or is it just the luck of the draw with this red and white deal?


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    #72
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »
    Ok, maybe a stupid question, and I probably should know better by now, but there is always one thing that has confused me. Red deal and white deal, they are 'pine', right? Or is 'pine' another type of softwood, or, perhaps a generic term for softwoods?

    I've always associated red and white deal as being a cheap, constuction type timber, not that used for furniture making.

    The reason I ask is because I'd like to do some work with some softwood (has to be cheap), but the only stuff the local timber yard sells is good, but its very light and for the most part loosely grained, ie, it wont take much, if any detail on a lathe. Is there a harder, denser softwood, or is it just the luck of the draw with this red and white deal?

    Just dug out a wood book to answer you and no mention of Red Deal, which I always took to be Scots Pine.

    Yep they are all pine and different species but the biggest differences in quality and cost is where the timber was grown!!!!

    You'll only get crap softwood timber grown in Ireland as we have too much rain and the weather is just to easy for the trees, afaik most softwood here goes for mdf and particle board. Good timber grows slowly and under slightly stressful conditions.

    OK found a reference Modern Practicle Joinery - George Ellis (1908)

    Baltic Pine (Pinus sylvestis),- Other names are yellow deal or fir, red deal or fir, Northern pine, Norway pine, Scotch for and European redwood. So as I said scots pine ;). I've felled the stuff in foresty and in Ireland and the UK it rarely makes a really good timber, but if you ever watched Doctor Zivago then the Red Deal you want is from the forsests you see in the film.

    As I was saying reading on in the same book it says "the best Deals come from the Russian ports of Archangel, ST Peteresburg, Onega and Wyborg", cold places where the timber grows (or used to grow may be all cleared 100 years on) very slowly.

    Edit>all from the same souce refering to softwoods "A DEAL is over 2 1/4 in. think and less than 10in. wide"

    so Deal has a generic meaning also.

    White deal.....

    FIRS -Sprice(Picea excalsa or Abies excalsa) generally called white deal. afaik the old latin name has changed and we are actually talking about "Christmas Trees" Picea Abies

    As for woodturning all I can say is you'll either get very good at sharpening or give up turning cheap softwood timber. I think the problem is that smaller sizes of timber are cut from smaller forestry thinings which really does yield course poor quality timber suitable for fence posts and battening. I did have a very big bit of what was sold as White Deal a while back 9inch x 4inch x 18ft and that obviously came from a decent sized tree. The timber was very close grained, quite in fact and I kept an off cut for a bowl so there is Deal and there is Deal. Typical timber trade!!!!! "nominal" sizes for what is "nominaly" called timber.


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    #73
    jack of all
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭jack of all


    The terms red and white deal are, I think, expressions which are (mostly now anyway) peculiar to Ireland- ask an English merchant for "red or white deal" as opposed to "pine" and he probably wouldn't know what you were talking about! "Deal" AFAIK was in times past a "measure" or "description" used for a type or quantity of softwood planks. Deal is pine; in this country it is mostly spruce and other "soft" pines. Red deal is a term which should probably be abandoned altogether in favour of actually naming the species outright- oregon pine or southern yellow pine or whatever! I have that book by Ellis also, as TTM points out the key to good softwood is the growth rate. Slow growing trees, with tightly bunched annular rings results in strong timber. Some of our native grown softwood is fine for (not too pressing) domestic structural use in framing roofs, floors etc where the material is machine graded and spans are pretty small. I suppose it's interesting to note that most of these firs and conifers which make up the majority of our forestation are not native! We should be growing more broadleaf trees.


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    #74
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    I only grabbed for a book as being Autistic I always doubt myself otherwise I'd have said straight off the top of my head White Deal - Christmas Tree, Picea Abies and Red Deal - Scots Pine, Pinus Sylvestris but wanted to check. Red Deal being the better timber all round (pun intended) slightly more durable, longer knot free lenghts and better workabilty (not as soft and pappy as White Deal) I still think the names are relevant......

    http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/timber/europeanredwood.html

    and more interestingly an Irish site

    http://www.woodspec.ie/iopen24/defaultarticle.php?cArticlePath=81_83

    ....mainly because there aren't that many timbers to name in common use. I know from my backgound there are 100's of different softwoods but you'd be hard pressed to name more than a dozen which are easily available and the top two would be Red Deal and White Deal add in Sitka, Douglas and Western Hemlock and you have (at a guess) the bulk of constuction timber covered.

    BUT most timber suppliers wouldn't have a bulls notion of what the timber looks like in the wild and they just go by what it says on their invoice so if that says anything they either don't understand or know they'll stick with what they do know or make up a name then your White Deal could also be Abies Alba (often called whitewood) Picea sitchensis (Silver spruce, Sitka spruce) Pinus monticola (another White Pine) Pinus strobus (yet anther White Pine) and possibly worst of all Tsuga heterophylla (yuky horrible Western Hemlock) which I've bought as White Deal (easy to tell what it is by its smell), Western Hemlock can be OK but it can grow so fast you need a yardstick to measure between the growth rings and even a very sharp chisel will bend the sap wood rather than cut it.

    If you look up into a live Scots Pine tree you'll should notice where the Red as in Red Deal comes from - well I can't think of a better reason? Top 1/3 to 2/3rds of older trees will have red bark.


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    #75
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    ttm wrote: »
    Western Hemlock can be OK but it can grow so fast you need a yardstick to measure between the growth rings and even a very sharp chisel will bend the sap wood rather than cut it.

    Many thanks for the great info guys! I appreciate it, you learn something new everyday etc ;). The Western Hemlock must be what I experienced when trying to turn a bit of softwood, should have known by how light it was, but it wouldnt take any detail at all!

    I've often cut up pine from old furniture etc over the years and the stuff would be solid with grown rings like a piece of fine oak!! :rolleyes:, but I guess it was foreign stuff. I know pine is often dismissed as a furniture making timber for the most part due to its sometimes lack of workability, but when you think back pine was a pretty popular wood here at one stage for furniture, particularly for the 'ordinary' man! Pine tables, chairs, stools, dressers, cabinets, linen boxs etc etc. I want to make a few items from pine, but want to get some good solid stuff!

    I'm going to annoy ye again, but this stuff called 'pitch pine', you'd often here of it being used for church benches and the likes, where does that stuff come from?


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    #76
    ennisa
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭ennisa


    I have heard that the phrase deal was used to describe a piece of wood of particular dimensions. So I would have to agree with Jack on that one.

    an interesting link;
    http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/SearchView.aspx?q=%22white%20deal%22

    and in there i found;
    "deal is a plank of pine or spruce that is 9" wide"


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    #77
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    Pitch pine would traditionally be a tree from Southern America, Pinus palustris (+ a couple of related sp) Southern Pitch Pine aka Longleaf Pine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longleaf_Pine but afaik as new timber you'll get Pinus caribaea Carribbean Pitch Pine. Intersting thing while looking them up I spotted these here http://www.woodcomponents.ie/southern_yellow_pine.html and http://www.woodcomponents.ie/pitch_pine.html spot the differnce in the pictures? There isn't one!

    I think the wikipedia article is only half right about the name Pitch Pine given to Pinus palustris being changed as it got mixed up with Pinus rigida which is another Pitch Pine as you really can't say if one is the name of the timber and the other is the name of the tree, just goes to show the sort of confusion that abounds. Another example might be Tulip Tree and Tulipwood one is a tree the other wood from a completely different tree.


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    #78
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    ennisa wrote: »
    I have heard that the phrase deal was used to describe a piece of wood of particular dimensions. So I would have to agree with Jack on that one.

    an interesting link;
    http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/SearchView.aspx?q=%22white%20deal%22

    and in there i found;
    "deal is a plank of pine or spruce that is 9" wide"

    I can't see anything wrong with that. So add Red for a pine plank that comes from a tree with red bark and yellow to reddish late wood and you have Red Deal for Scotts Pine then White deal for the Whiter wood of the Christmas Tree naturally follows.

    What about a Balk, a Flitch or a Quaterling and I can't agree with the links definition of Scantlings, I've always taken Scantlings to be various sizes, sort of mixed sizes if you see what I mean but not Balks, Fitches or Quarterlings ;)

    btw another good link and some good ones to follow up in the Navigation panel. Anyone thought that we could have a pinned resources thread with links like this copied to?


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    #79
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Learn a fair ol' bit today, thanks fellas for the great info!!! ;)


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    #80
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »
    Learn a fair ol' bit today, thanks fellas for the great info!!! ;)

    You really need to go down to the woods some day and give your self a suprise ;) Take a copy of Alan Mithell's Trees of Britan and Northern Euorpe (Collins Field Guide) and see if you can spot some the the trees used in woodworking http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trees-Britain-Northern-Europe-Collins/dp/0002192136 . It doesn't have any woodworking details but at least you'll know what the trees look like. Then find a freindly tree surgeon for a source of interesting timber :D


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    #81
    jack of all
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭jack of all


    Great info guys, thanks.


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    #82
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Arent ye guys making anything this weather? Lets be seeing some pictures and a few work in progress threads and liven this place up a bit!! ;)

    Heres a chair that I've just finished today. She's called 'Dair' and is made of white oak. Last week she was a 5ft long, 2" thick, 8" wide plank of oak which my little Fox thicknesser struggled to get through and the TS, with a new blade, sliced through effortlessy.....niceee!

    dair1.jpg

    dair2.jpg

    (dont mind the over shinyness, it had just gotten a coat of Danish oil and was still very wet before it got a wipe down)

    Its not really made for comfort, as you can probably guess :p. The main parts are all made from 45mm square, I had intended on making them 30mm, but when I cut through that wood and seen the beautiful rays I wanted more of them to be seen, so I went with the 'chunky monkey' model :p. The base, and back are 1" oak board planed and biscuit joined. All the joints are M+T, not a single screw, nail or other form of mechanical fixing to be found anywhere. Majority of joints fixed with 'Magilla' Gorilla glue.

    Let me know what you think.


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    #83
    jack of all
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭jack of all


    Well done Croppy Boy, nice bit of work in that chair! Tell me how the curved "brackets" are secured, some kind of stub tenon? Alos did you hand plane the 45mm square sections after they came off the P/T? Just curious.


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    #84
    ennisa
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭ennisa


    Very nice croppy, I love oak, how is the little fox working out for you?

    I'm just back from a week walking around Washington DC and I'm exhausted and I am being distracted by non workshop things so I have nothing going on at the moment. I am a lazy, lazy man. When I get sick of the shiny thing that is currently distracting me I'm going to concentrate a little bit on shop projects. Fences, jigs, maybe some tool making. I have a small coffin smoother that my father in law gave me but for some reason the iron in it will not hold an edge. I sharpen it up and within two swipes on a board the edge is all chipped and ruined. I cannot find an iron of the same size without having to pay a chunk'o'cash to Ron Hock (I have heard great things about his irons but I don't have the money) and then pay for shipping from the states. So I was thinking of getting some tool steel ( O1/high carbon steel) and building a small flower pot furnace in the back garden and hardening and annealing it myself. Maybe try hardening the old one first for a test. A friend of mine works in a tooling company so he should be able to get me some of the steel without too much outlay.
    I'm also thinking of trying to make one of these. Out of wood, not steel. It looks so handy, and so easy. Which I'm sure means it will be a pain in the ass to make and that I should probably just shell out the cash for one but it's apparent simplicity and usefulness intrigues me.


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    #85
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    ennisa wrote: »
    I'm also thinking of trying to make one of these. Out of wood, not steel. It looks so handy, and so easy. Which I'm sure means it will be a pain in the ass to make and that I should probably just shell out the cash for one but it's apparent simplicity and usefulness intrigues me.

    While on the Bridge City site why not throw some "real" money around and by one of these

    resize_HP7CoverShot1.jpg

    A snip at €599 $523


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    #86
    ennisa
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭ennisa


    Dirty!


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    #87
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Hi guys,

    Yeah the brackets are secured via a M&T joint, was a bit of a struggle to get them in, had to flex the brackets a little and was afraid they were going to snap, but thankfully I got them in.

    I tried to hand plane them, but, I dont think my plane was the sort of razor sharp that you need for finishing, and with all the medulary rays going across the grain it was ripping these, so, I scraped it with a plane blade, that got it pretty smooth.

    Ennisa the p/t is working a treat still, she was labouring I tell you with the 2" oak going through it, but she took the heavy stuff off. She makes a hell of a mess, my vacuum is broken, so I have a pile of chipping of all colors around the base of the machine! I tried buring it, but you can only burn a small bit at a time. I wonder is there anyway that you could mix them with some solution and compress them into blocks for burning?? Hmmm....

    By the way, that chair, another table I made and the rocking crib are going to be on show at a design exhib in Tullamore next week, there is a possibilty that 'Nationwide' might even be at it, so you might see them on tv!! :p


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    #88
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    ennisa wrote: »
    Dirty!

    What as in Woodworker pornography? ;)

    btw forgot to add my praise to croppys work, looks wonderful, great form and shape, brilliant use of timber. I'm sure its solid but after looking at the chair for a while I get a feeling that the front legs need bracing (might just be the angle of the picture) I'm sure they don't but on such an othewise solid peice they sort of look too delicate, precarious perhaps? It might be something to do with the leg not being tapered and the joint being the same square dimensions as the leg. However I don't see how you could keep the rest of the shape and form if you were to add a brace. Don't shoot me CroppyBoy1798 did say "Let me know what you think".


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    #89
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »
    She makes a hell of a mess, my vacuum is broken, so I have a pile of chipping of all colors around the base of the machine! I tried buring it, but you can only burn a small bit at a time. I wonder is there anyway that you could mix them with some solution and compress them into blocks for burning?? Hmmm....

    Yep you can get a burner for sawdust, they work great if you are producing lots of it. I'll find a link for you, they used to be about 350euro (from local builders merchants in Dungarvan) but once you see the design I suspect you'll make your own ;):rolleyes::D

    Edit> There you go http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Steel-workshop-stove.html

    And a diagram to get you going...

    workshop-stove-operation.jpg

    And some other links to building your own but different design but to above http://www.hedon.info/TheFulgoraSawdustBurningStove & http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/vita/sawdstov/en/sawdstov.htm


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    #90
    ennisa
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭ennisa


    Yes, Dirty, dirty, dirty! :D


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    #91
    SpitfireIV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    ttm wrote: »

    Don't shoot me CroppyBoy1798 did say "Let me know what you think".

    Damn you ttm!!! *fills his flash pan* :mad:


    :pac::pac: fair point and any feedback is helpful of course. I think the legs will be ok (or at least I hope they will) they have pretty solid joints and the seat is mortised into the cross pieces via 4, 1 inch long mortices, I was going to go with through mortises and knock in some wedges, but I thought that'd make it look too busy and over complicated, I wanted to keep it as clean as possible. In fact, in hindsight now, if I were to do it again I'd like to have tried M+T'd 45 degree joints on the front legs and where the arms come off the back leg, it would have given it more of a flow perhaps rather than the 'up-stop, across-stop,down-stop' :p. Not sure how it'd be strenght wise though.


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