Five years of marriage equality. How has our society survived.

lazygal · 22-10-2020 9:40am

cgcsb wrote: »

Those poor people, I hope one day they recover.

They are very happy. I won't assume otherwise unless they tell me.

Peregrinus · 22-10-2020 9:43am

Yeah. There are also straight and gay Catholic people who challenge various teachings (and I know at least one whose reason for continuing to be a Catholic is, at least in part, so that he can challenge teachings). This doesn't make them not Catholic, and it doesn't make them self-flagellating or guilt-addled.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 11:41am

Really makes the Irish hierarchy and Iona etc. look like the fools we always knew them to be. Another bit of their supposed authority chipped away

Render unto Caesar and all that. Civil marriage was never any of the church's business, and they should have steered well clear of trying to interfere in it.

xeresod · 22-10-2020 12:10pm

lazygal wrote: »

Indeed. There are straight and gay Catholic people I know who *gasp* actually follow the teaching. They're celibate in the case of the gay man and in the case of a couple didn't have sex or live together before marriage, don't use contraception etc. And I absolutely respect them for literally practicing what's preached. They would also be very non judgemental about how other people live their lives, while being open about how important their faith is to their own lives.

That's exactly the right way to do things!

If your faith says you should do things a certain way and not do other things, then that's what you do and let others not of your faith make their own choice as to what they do or not.

Religion done right!

landofthetree · 22-10-2020 12:13pm

lazygal wrote: »

Dire, dire warnings about the gays adopting any passing childers and we'd all be surrogates for them non stop. I think we're alright, given the circumstances.

Surrogacy is barbaric and should be banned. Of course that is a separate issue to gay marriage.

gmisk · 22-10-2020 12:17pm

I will be one year married on the 1st of November...a gay marriage...or garage if you prefer

Odd first year with one thing and another...

The only damage to society I can think of is the odd disagreement in B and Q over paint and tiles... no one should have to listen to that nonsense...I apologise to society.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 12:57pm

xeresod wrote: »

Religion done right!

The best way to do religion is to not do it at all.

But yes the outlandishly pious types never mind the proselytisers are insufferable.

Limpy · 22-10-2020 12:59pm

What was the big deal about gays getting married in a church. Most people in Ireland view the church with distain due to sex abuse ect.

landofthetree · 22-10-2020 1:36pm

Limpy wrote: »

What was the big deal about gays getting married in a church. Most people in Ireland view the church with distain due to sex abuse ect.

Johnny and Mary hate the Catholic church. Dont really believe in God. They voted for abortion. But they get married in a church. :rolleyes:

Typical Irish hypocrisy.

Limpy · 22-10-2020 1:41pm

landofthetree wrote: »

Johnny and Mary hate the Catholic church. Dont really believe in God. They voted for abortion. But they get married in a church. :rolleyes:

Typical Irish hypocrisy.

I agree totally. That's why I am wondering why the big fight to be able get married in a church.

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2020 1:48pm

Limpy wrote: »

What was the big deal about gays getting married in a church. Most people in Ireland view the church with distain due to sex abuse ect.

I don't recall there being any serious call for same-sex marriages to be performed in churches tbh. That was a whole muddy the waters tactic.
My recollection is that many people were under the impression that becuase church weddings were/are the norm they assumed gay people wanted them, and were very surprised to learn that the religious aspect has zero legal status and is simply window dressing.
What people actually wanted was legal marriages with exactly the same rights/responsibilities as granted 'straights'.

The only people I saw making a big deal about gays getting married in a church were anti marriage equality.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 1:50pm

This issue had nothing to do with churches at all, but they still had to stick their oar in as usual.

It was entirely about the civil law and civil marriage.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

robindch · 22-10-2020 1:51pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Iona Institute denounce pope as a heretic in 3... 2... 1...

Strangely, Bishop Quinn seems to have stayed quiet on the topic - going by his twitter feed, he's mainly exercised about level five and why it's such a bad idea.

gmisk · 22-10-2020 1:53pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't recall there being any serious call for same-sex marriages to be performed in churches tbh. That was a whole muddy the waters tactic.
My recollection is that many people were under the impression that becuase church weddings were/are the norm they assumed gay people wanted them, and were very surprised to learn that the religious aspect has zero legal status and is simply window dressing.
What people actually wanted was legal marriages with exactly the same rights/responsibilities as granted 'straights'.

The only people I saw making a big deal about gays getting married in a church were anti marriage equality.

Yep spot on.

I got married in a registry office.
I know of about 4 other gay couples who got married in last few years, none in a church.

gmisk · 22-10-2020 1:56pm

robindch wrote: »

Strangely, Bishop Quinn seems to have stayed quiet on the topic - going by his twitter feed, he's mainly exercised about level five and why it's such a bad idea.

Churches closed down...no money in the plate...

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 1:57pm

The only church that would allow a same sex marriage afaik is the Universal Unitarians.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 2:00pm

gmisk wrote: »

Yep spot on.

I got married in a registry office.
I know of about 4 other gay couples who got married in last few years, none in a church.

The experience of a lot of people with their heterosexual friends would be similar in recent years!

Last time I was invited to a church wedding was 12 years ago. I volunteered for baby minding duties so was only required to attend the reception, and the little one slept through it band and all

eviltwin · 22-10-2020 3:05pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This issue had nothing to do with churches at all, but they still had to stick their oar in as usual.

It was entirely about the civil law and civil marriage.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

In Ireland?

That’s some drop!

lazygal · 22-10-2020 6:03pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't recall there being any serious call for same-sex marriages to be performed in churches tbh. That was a whole muddy the waters tactic.
My recollection is that many people were under the impression that becuase church weddings were/are the norm they assumed gay people wanted them, and were very surprised to learn that the religious aspect has zero legal status and is simply window dressing.
What people actually wanted was legal marriages with exactly the same rights/responsibilities as granted 'straights'.

The only people I saw making a big deal about gays getting married in a church were anti marriage equality.

Afaicr it was a recycled argument from the UK opponents of marriage equality as the state Church there is apparently obliged to marry anyone who asks them to. I might be muddled in this memory.
I would favour complete separation of church and state. Let everyone have the exact same state marriage ceremony and then have the wedding of their choice in a church or anywhere else with whoever they like. I wish the church here had followed through on the promise to get out of the marriage business.

Peregrinus · 23-10-2020 2:39am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This issue had nothing to do with churches at all, but they still had to stick their oar in as usual.

It was entirely about the civil law and civil marriage.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

eviltwin wrote: »

In Ireland?

That’s some drop!

Broken down as between opposite-sex and same sex-marriages, it's

60.2% of opposite-sex marriages celebrated in religious ceremonies.

22.2% of same-sex marriages celebrated in religious ceremonies.

To be honest, the 22.2% figure surprised me. There are more religious same-sex ceremonies than humanist same-sex ceremonies (15.6%). The big players in the same-sex religious ceremony market are the Spiritualist Union and the Unitarians.

smacl · 23-10-2020 8:42am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The best way to do religion is to not do it at all.

I disagree, freedom of religious expression is a basic human right and while I might no share beliefs of religious people, I'd defend their right to hold and practice their beliefs. What I find objectionable is people trying to force their belief system on others, which is the core argument for secularism. As a secularist, I'd limit my concerns to undue influence exerted by the church on our society rather than what people choose to believe or the traditions they follow.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

Also surprised it is that high so soon. Speaks volumes for the decline of the church in this country and suggests we're possibly only a few generations away from no longer being a majority religious country. It seems the pope is making an effort at inclusiveness and to step away from the ingrained homophobia within Catholicism, no doubt in large part to stem the flow of people away the church. While no doubt he's making some progress, I reckon it will be limited and he'll be stymied by the majority of hardliners in the Vatican.

It would be interesting in comparing long term trends in Ireland with other Catholic majority countries in Europe.

Peregrinus · 23-10-2020 8:55am

smacl wrote: »

. . . It would be interesting in comparing long term trends in Ireland with other Catholic majority countries in Europe.

Thre's no doubt there has been a dramatic decline in the percentage of wedding celebrated in church. But I think the 51% figure may reflect that (a) few churches will celebrate same-sex marriages, and (b) the dominant church won't celebrate the remarriage of divorced persons. So the 49% not marrying in churches includes some people who don't want to, and some who might want to if they could but they can't.

So a useful second figure would be the percentage of opposite-sex first marriages that are celebrated in churches.

As for comparison with other countries, in several Catholic majority countries in Europe the system is that a civil wedding is mandatory, and a church wedding in addition is optional. I seem to recall that the number of Catholic church weddings in France is about 50% of the number of civil weddings. Add a few percentage points for people who have church weddings in non-Catholic churches, and the position may not look hugely different from Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 11:19am

Peregrinus wrote: »

60.2% of opposite-sex marriages celebrated in religious ceremonies.

CSO count the spiritualists as religious marriages, it fits the legal definition but the legislation in this area is bizarre and discriminates against non-religious/spiritual celebrants.

Most people go to the spiritualists because the HSE don't do weekends and the humanists are usually booked out. The ceremony need not mention anything at all about religion, gods or spirits.

Taking out the spiritualists (they don't happen in a church after all) church weddings are 51% not 60% (of all marriages).

smacl wrote: »

I disagree, freedom of religious expression is a basic human right and while I might no share beliefs of religious people, I'd defend their right to hold and practice their beliefs.

And I have the freedom to consider those beliefs or practices strange or silly. I didn't say anything about denying anyone their rights.

lazygal · 23-10-2020 11:39am

The spiritualist union full the void for lots of people who want a bit more than the HSE ceremony and or can't get a humanist celebrant. We didn't want a religious ceremony in any way so ruled them out.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 11:56am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Thre's no doubt there has been a dramatic decline in the percentage of wedding celebrated in church. But I think the 51% figure may reflect that (a) few churches will celebrate same-sex marriages, and (b) the dominant church won't celebrate the remarriage of divorced persons. So the 49% not marrying in churches includes some people who don't want to, and some who might want to if they could but they can't.

In 2019 there were 19,673 opposite sex marriages (96.85%)
640 same sex marriages (3.15%)
so we can't really blame teh gheys for skewing the figures of holy catholic Ireland.

So a useful second figure would be the percentage of opposite-sex first marriages that are celebrated in churches.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2019/

Table 17.

Interestingly shows 121/8863 Catholic ceremonies involved at least one divorced person!

For marriages of two opposite-sex single people, 9898 church (57.9%), 7192 spiritual or non-religious (42.1%), total 17090

smacl · 23-10-2020 12:13pm

lazygal wrote: »

The spiritualist union full the void for lots of people who want a bit more than the HSE ceremony and or can't get a humanist celebrant. We didn't want a religious ceremony in any way so ruled them out.

We ended up with a civil celebrant and went with our own vows and whatnot in the registry office, we weren't mad into a humanist either.

smacl · 23-10-2020 12:23pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

And I have the freedom to consider those beliefs or practices strange or silly. I didn't say anything about denying anyone their rights.

Fair enough, I took your statement "The best way to do religion is to not do it at all." as a stated preference that other people should not practice their religion. To my mind that is the equivalent of suggesting atheists should just get over themselves and start believing in god. I have no interest in how people 'do religion' or 'don't do religion', just so long as they don't try to strong arm others into joining in.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 1:30pm

That was purely my personal view, obviously others have differing views.

robindch · 06-11-2020 3:34pm

Some clarification on Pope Frank's backing for civil unions - essentially, yes, he supports gay civil unions to provide legal protection, but does not support gay marriage as that can only take place between one man and one woman.

https://www.facebook.com/franco.coppola.714/posts/3713375955360936
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/02/world/europe/pope-gay-civil-unions.html

New York Times wrote:

The Vatican has confirmed the pope’s remarks on gay couples deserving civil protections as it sent an explanatory note to bishops underlining that Francis’s comments did not mark a change in church doctrine.

The pope’s remarks made headlines last month after they appeared in the documentary “Francesco,” at its Oct. 21 premiere at the Rome Film Festival. In the documentary, he reiterated his view that gay people are “children of God,” and said: “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered.”

Last week, acknowledging the “various reactions and interpretations” provoked by the pope’s apparent break from his predecessors, the Vatican Secretary of State sent an explanatory note to its nuncios, or ambassadors, to be shared with bishops, “with the desire to favor an appropriate understanding of the words of the Holy Father.” [...]

Hotblack Desiato · 06-11-2020 4:51pm

So it's ok if a gay man marries a gay woman. A start

Five years of marriage equality. How has our society survived.

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