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Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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    #302
    PCros
    Registered Users Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭PCros


    Ryanair have published sample payslips of cabin crew and pilots.

    Also how much of the facts are true?

    Link: https://corporate.ryanair.com/category/news/


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    #303
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    Storm 10 wrote: »


    It said on RTE at 10am that the 300 are on protective notice so it looks like they will lose their jobs, they wont be moved to Poland.

    Some of them will. If a pilot seniority list existed (which I think is one of the Union's demands) then it would probably be the most junior pilots who would be let go, whereas without seniority, presumably Ryanair can pick whoever it likes?


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    #304
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭john boye


    Is cutting their based fleet from 30 to 24 for Winter not just their normal Winter cuts though?


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    #305
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,982 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    If you have flights booked for the winter already with Ryanair will you receive advanced notice now if cancelling same.

    Very dangerous game putting pilots on protective notice like that, I can see the strike escalating cause of this.


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    #306
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    PCros wrote: »
    Ryanair have published sample payslips of cabin crew and pilots.

    Also how much of the facts are true?

    Link: https://corporate.ryanair.com/category/news/
    I am pretty sure they have picked figures which are factual. But if I have learnt something in the past few years, it is that usually when someone claims loudly that they are giving "the facts", they have cherry picked some figures which while correct don't represent the full picture of whatever they are talking about (being factual doesn't meant correctly representing  the full reality, often enough it is even the opposite).


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    #307
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I am pretty sure they have picked figures which are factual. But if I have learnt something in the past few years, it is that usually when someone claims loudly that they are giving "the facts", they have cherry picked some figures which while correct don't represent the full picture of whatever they are talking about (being factual doesn't meant correctly representing  the full reality, often enough it is even the opposite).

    That's the case in any industrial dispute though isn't it, both sides will always cherry pick examples to suit their own agenda, the truth in most of these cases is generally somewhere in the middle.


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    #308
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Aer Lingus "Union Advisors" don't suffer from this development at all, in fact potentially 6 less competitor planes in Dublin improves their job security.

    Rubbish strike: What do we want? We want choice of bases when we are already based in one of the best bases and we want to screw our Colleagues over for the best vacation dates!

    If ever there was a fight that needed to be fought this was not it.

    It would give Ryanair Management great pleasure to tell TDs like Daly to FOAD and most politicians in Government know they can't exert any influence on Ryanair in the way they could at Aer Lingus or the DAA.


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    #309
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    devnull wrote: »
    That's the case in any industrial dispute though isn't it, both sides will always cherry pick examples to suit their own agenda, the truth in most of these cases is generally somewhere in the middle.
    Yes and I'd say more generally it is the case in all news reporting, in politics, etc (and as a quick side note, IMO this is why facts matter less and less with electorates in Western countries, people have gotten so used to being manipulated with facts that they now pay more attention to more abstract ideas regardless of facts and how they fit their own view of the situation of their country, which is both good and bad). 

    But I don't think it is safe to assume the truth is somewhere in the middle. Quite often it isn't.


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    #310
    Fagashlil
    Registered Users Posts: 450 ✭✭Fagashlil


    Storm 10 wrote: »

    It said on RTE at 10am that the 300 are on protective notice so it looks like they will lose their jobs, they wont be moved to Poland.

    The memo received informs us that "in the event redundancies are necessary, we hope to be able to minimise these redundancies by encouraging affected pilots and cabin crew employees to select base transfers into those markets where we are growing strongly, most notably Poland"

    Then follows with informing us that the aircraft removed for winter will be transferred to their charter airline, Ryanair Sun, which according to them, is growing strongly and profitably.


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    #311
    PCros
    Registered Users Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭PCros


    Interestingly a senior Irish captain takes home €195k whereas a UK captain takes home €246k?

    Now I know a "pinch of salt" and all that but what would be the reason for 25% extra?


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    #312
    Bazzy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    With regard to the paylslips

    I'd say they are cherry picked the difference could be length of service/ Hours worked

    The fairest way to do it would be an average

    Joe public probably wouldn't understand the cost involved to become a pilot.

    Also the figures are gross so the tax man has yet to get his claws in.

    its bad news story less planes flying from Dublin means Higher prices due to less flights

    Only one winning is Ryanair.


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    #313
    Bazzy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    Fagashlil wrote: »
    Storm 10 wrote: »

    The memo received informs us that "in the event redundancies are necessary, we hope to be able to minimise these redundancies by encouraging affected pilots and cabin crew employees to select base transfers into those markets where we are growing strongly, most notably Poland"

    Then follows with informing us that the aircraft removed for winter will be transferred to their charter airline, Ryanair Sun, which according to them, is growing strongly and profitably.

    That is standard HR practice


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    #314
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    PCros wrote: »
    Interestingly a senior Irish captain takes home €195k whereas a UK captain takes home €246k?

    Now I know a "pinch of salt" and all that but what would be the reason for 25% extra?


    Might it have something to do with USC, PAYE, and PRSI - not forgetting the Impact deduction from salary!


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    #315
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    pc7 wrote: »

    Very dangerous game putting pilots on protective notice like that, I can see the strike escalating cause of this.

    But today's Impact meeting was, as already announced, about escalating the strike.

    So Ryanair just threw some chilli oil into the soup.


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    #316
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Poland in winter is depressing. Long Cold Cold winter.
    May be some Irish based planes end up there but I don't think Poland will be growing that fast and instead they'll just sell some of the older 737-800s.
    The secondhand market is going to be really flooded once the latest new A320s and 737s start reaching the market.
    M O'L mentioned increasing maintenance costs on their older planes.
    Also Laudamotion leases are expensive. You can hear it in his voice that he really resents paying those leases.


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    #317
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    Regarding the payslips, I can guarantee you that they are all from the base captains / extremely high-ranked pilots in each base. A new captain won't see that figure for years and years, if ever, even if they don't leave the company. The sad thing is the public then decide to see this whole event as 'another pilot strike' (with reference to the strikes by AL pilots in the past and the union strangling the airline) by 'overpaid' pilots. Hopefully people are starting to realise that EVERYTHING Ryanair says needs to be taken with a very large handful of salt.

    This is an incredibly risky move by Ryanair. Imagine you're a captain in Dublin with a family and went on strike - the one thing pilots don't want is to get told ''Hello, well done on the strike. Now, we have two options for you: 1. You are going to be deployed to Poland for an indefinite amount of time and might get the chance to return to Dublin if you're a good boy/girl and listen to what we say and work flights on your OFF days, or 2. You will be made redundant.''

    That is likely what will happen. Meanwhile Ryanair can completely cover this up by blaming demand etc. and nobody can prove otherwise! Also, the whole reason this strike is happening is because of bloody base transfers with no reason like this! Talk about shooting yourself in the bloody foot. Jesus.

    The cabin crew have started their strike today, full support to them. Management isn't getting the message anytime soon by the looks of things.


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    #318
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Bazzy wrote: »
    its bad news story less planes flying from Dublin means Higher prices due to less flights

    And could mean some routes being axed. I have a regular journey to France next to Switzerland and I favour Aer Lingus to Geneva as I like the airline better, but Ryanair to Basel sometimes comes handy and since it doesn’t seem that busy (and is already not a daily route) I could see it as being axed (it was already added and then removed in the past).


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    #319
    basill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭basill


    Doesn't FR always park up aircraft in the winter? Seems like situation normal to me but using the ongoing industrial landscape as a convenient excuse.


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    #320
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,051 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    Regarding the payslips, I can guarantee you that they are all from the base captains / extremely high-ranked pilots in each base. A new captain won't see that figure for years and years, if ever, even if they don't leave the company. The sad thing is the public then decide to see this whole event as 'another pilot strike' (with reference to the strikes by AL pilots in the past and the union strangling the airline) by 'overpaid' pilots. Hopefully people are starting to realise that EVERYTHING Ryanair says needs to be taken with a very large handful of salt.

    This is an incredibly risky move by Ryanair. Imagine you're a captain in Dublin with a family and went on strike - the one thing pilots don't want is to get told ''Hello, well done on the strike. Now, we have two options for you: 1. You are going to be deployed to Poland for an indefinite amount of time and might get the chance to return to Dublin if you're a good boy/girl and listen to what we say and work flights on your OFF days, or 2. You will be made redundant.''

    That is likely what will happen. Meanwhile Ryanair can completely cover this up by blaming demand etc. and nobody can prove otherwise! Also, the whole reason this strike is happening is because of bloody base transfers with no reason like this! Talk about shooting yourself in the bloody foot. Jesus.

    The cabin crew have started their strike today, full support to them. Management isn't getting the message anytime soon by the looks of things.

    Surely people can’t expect to go out on strike without any risk to their employment.?

    Do a lot of damage to your employer and your income source and expect to have no risk to yourself.

    That’s Barmy thinking is it not.

    Making no comment on the strike itself by the way, don’t know enough of the insights.

    But expecting management to sit back and not try to minimize the effect is ,well,the softest word would be ..naive


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    #321
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users Posts: 5,154 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    Regarding the payslips, I can guarantee you that they are all from the base captains / extremely high-ranked pilots in each base. A new captain won't see that figure for years and years, if ever, even if they don't leave the company. The sad thing is the public then decide to see this whole event as 'another pilot strike' (with reference to the strikes by AL pilots in the past and the union strangling the airline) by 'overpaid' pilots. Hopefully people are starting to realise that EVERYTHING Ryanair says needs to be taken with a very large handful of salt.

    This is an incredibly risky move by Ryanair. Imagine you're a captain in Dublin with a family and went on strike - the one thing pilots don't want is to get told ''Hello, well done on the strike. Now, we have two options for you: 1. You are going to be deployed to Poland for an indefinite amount of time and might get the chance to return to Dublin if you're a good boy/girl and listen to what we say and work flights on your OFF days, or 2. You will be made redundant.''

    That is likely what will happen. Meanwhile Ryanair can completely cover this up by blaming demand etc. and nobody can prove otherwise! Also, the whole reason this strike is happening is because of bloody base transfers with no reason like this! Talk about shooting yourself in the bloody foot. Jesus.

    The cabin crew have started their strike today, full support to them. Management isn't getting the message anytime soon by the looks of things.

    I think most people would put up with being away from their homebase for six figure salaries.You have pilots on strike who are on bigger salaries than the taoiseach.You wont find too many people sympathising with them if the schedule means they dont get home as often as they would like.Surely that was their expectation when they took that career path.


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    #322
    Mebuntu
    Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Mebuntu


    I didn't see this coming but, on reflection, it has always been the airline's policy to reduce activities at or close bases where their ability to gain maximum return for their investment has been affected by prevailing circumstances and so they move their aircraft to where the (most) money is at. Dublin has previously been affected by this policy when increased airport charges and the introduction of the failed Government Travel Tax arose.

    In the current dispute it was mentioned by the airline rep (in that Pat Kenny interview) that the union was attempting to "copy and paste" Aer Lingus terms into Ryanair's low fares business model (without which they'd be nowhere near where they are today or probably wouldn't even exist). I said previously that the union had no experience of dealing with an airline as big as Ryanair with its 80+ bases and 400+ aircraft compared to Aer Lingus' 40 aircraft and one base. Just because "everyone else" is doing something doesn't mean that it is right or suitable for everyone. Ryanair has always challenged the legacy way of doing things and, in the process, made air travel accessible to all - unlike the days before when the Aer Lingus/BA cartel operated as referred to by another poster above.

    I've never really understood the mentality of well-paid employees setting out purposely and deliberately to cause the maximum financial and reputational damage to the company that pays their wages. In this case their actions could well mean, in addition, that 200 of their Cabin Crew colleagues will lose their jobs.

    Overall, though, the only winners in this dispute, for the moment, will be Aer Lingus and other legacy carriers because those who have to travel will not take a chance that their Ryanair flight might not take off. (in line with the thoughts of some posters here already).


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    #323
    LeChienMefiant
    Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    Bazzy wrote: »
    Also the figures are gross so the tax man has yet to get his claws in.
    That always annoys me, when this is raised. How is that relevant? Everyone pays taxes.


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    #324
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    I bought an additional return flight for €53. If it doesn't fly I'll just try to get EU261.
    I got puked on and delayed on my last return trip with Ryanair. I don't think the point will ever come where I say "never again" with Ryanair until I have concerns about flight safety.


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    #325
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Mebuntu wrote: »

    I've never really understood the mentality of well-paid employees setting out purposely and deliberately to cause the maximum financial and reputational damage to the company that pays their wages. In this case their actions could well mean, in addition, that 200 of their Cabin Crew colleagues will lose their jobs.

    The practice of trade unions will help your understanding


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    #326
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    MayoSalmon wrote:
    The practice of trade unions will help your understanding


    Is collective bargaining a bad thing for the labour force?


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    #327
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    I'm listening to Joe Duffy as I type this, and it strikes me that Ryanair (and Irish Rail/Bus Eireann) strikes divide this country almost as neatly into two sides as the great Roy Keane/Mick McCarthy schism did back in the day! It's rather enjoyable being a fly in the wall watching the game of chess between the goodies and the baddies progressing at a snail's pace towards the (almost) inevitable third party intervention stage!

    As for the strike, I'm probably not alone in this, but I'd instinctively have loads more sympathy for striking Ryanair cabin crew than I can muster up for the Impact pilots.


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    #328
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Is collective bargaining a bad thing for the labour force?

    Yes, its a bad thing.


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    #329
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    Regarding the payslips, I can guarantee you that they are all from the base captains / extremely high-ranked pilots in each base.

    So what? Either the figures quoted are correct or they're not.
    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    A new captain won't see that figure for years and years, if ever, even if they don't leave the company.

    It took my missus (a teacher) 26 years to reach the maximum point of her pay scale as a teacher. Your point?
    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    The sad thing is the public then decide to see this whole event as 'another pilot strike' (with reference to the strikes by AL pilots in the past and the union strangling the airline) by 'overpaid' pilots.

    But that's precisely what it is. :confused:
    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    Hopefully people are starting to realise that EVERYTHING Ryanair says needs to be taken with a very large handful of salt.

    Kindly post up some coherent arguments - not the hysterical tosh quoted above - in support of that risible claim.


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    #330
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    MayoSalmon wrote:
    Yes, its a bad thing.


    Please do explain?


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    #331
    OU812
    Registered Users Posts: 6,035 ✭✭✭OU812


    Quick question.

    Friend is supposed to travel from the UK to Dublin on Friday 3rd August. How soon will he find out if his flight is affected or are ALL flights cancelled?


This discussion has been closed.
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