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Belarus forces Ryanair plane to divert *NO GENERAL POLITICS* *MOD WARNING POST 1*

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    Lmkrnr wrote: »
    All hearsay.

    Like it or not by objective analysis it ranks 148th in the world in terms of democracy and is classified as an authoritarian regime.

    That’s not just hearsay, nor is it a slight in the people either.

    The reality is you’re talking about countries that came out of the authoritarian regime of the Soviet system and have only barely had a couple of decades of experience with democracy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    Lmkrnr wrote: »
    Totally disagree, it has nothing to do with ordinary Belarusians.

    It has everything to do with the ordinary Belarusians like the young man whose life is in danger by "suicide" and the 2 million collective farm slaves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    Lmkrnr wrote: »
    All hearsay.


    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/belarus-news-protester-found-hanged-from-tree-minsk-not-suicide-friends-blame-lukashenko-police/

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11189609

    The murders of Oleg Bebinin and Nikita Krivtsov, and claims by Belarusian Police that they were suicide are not heresay. They are fact, and to claim they are hearsay is an insult to their families and them.

    https://news.sky.com/video/screams-of-belarus-protesters-heard-from-prison-12055922

    The screams of 1,000s of protestors being beaten and tortured as recorded by their families outside prison gates are not hearsay!

    https://www.dw.com/en/belarus-accused-of-re-introducing-forced-labor/a-16529451

    Belarus reintroduced serfdom on state collective farms in 2012, that is fact not hearsay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    Lmkrnr wrote: »
    So by that logic ordinary Germans are responsible for the Holocaust?

    Well done on failing to twist a post, he said "Belarusians who support him" not ordinary Belarusians, so yes Germans who supported the Nazis are to blame for the actions of the Nazis, ergo Belarusias who support Lusashenko are also responsible for his crimes, and the victims of those crimes are ordinary Belarusians.


  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Scot_in_Dublin


    Lmkrnr wrote: »
    I think this lad won't be involved in any colour revolutions for awhile. They call him a blogger but he's clearly an EU stooge.

    Late to the thread. And this may be revealed to be a poor attempt at sarcasm or such. But, really. EU stooge. Guy is likely to die at the hands of the state. If you're all for that, I'd suggest you get the next flight, fully unscheduled stops, to there. You could be their next big TV anchor. May have missed a letter on that somewhere.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Scot_in_Dublin


    Realistically, this isn't a Ryanair issue, nor an Irish issue, or an EU issue. This is kinda NATO level. Be really sad to have to do it but perhaps fights going that way may need to be escorted.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Lmkrnr wrote: »
    So by that logic ordinary Germans are responsible for the Holocaust?

    Take your trolling elsewhere. Do not post on this thread again


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,897 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Bambi wrote: »
    Should be very simple to deny access to European airspace for flights into and out of Belarussia.

    Listening to Coveney on RADIO 1, I'm sure if the regime are listening in, they'll be shaking in their boots (not), surely to deny European airspace won't bother this regime in the slightest, their main route of concern is directly to Russia, they won't care too much if their citiz can fly in European airspace, infact, it would suit the regime nicely I would have thought.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Scot_in_Dublin


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Listening to Coveney on RADIO 1, I'm sure if the regime are listening in, they'll be shaking in their boots (not), surely to deny European airspace won't bother this regime in the slightest, their main route of concern is directly to Russia, they won't care too much if their citiz can fly in European airspace, infact, it would suit the regime nicely I would have thought.

    True. But perhaps we need to start 'escorting' flights from anywhere near these borders. A MiG being escorted by a couple of the newer 'Euro' fighters back to the edge of their local airspace would be interesting. Much as the RAF have been doing with the Russian long range bombers that like to come down this way every now and then


  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Scot_in_Dublin


    True. But perhaps we need to start 'escorting' flights from anywhere near these borders. A MiG being escorted by a couple of the newer 'Euro' fighters back to the edge of their local airspace would be interesting. Much as the RAF have been doing with the Russian long range bombers that like to come down this way every now and then

    There does seem to be, I'd like to almost call it, bravado? Bits swinging? No consequence pretty much. Rapid response from the airforce bases in the EU and UK are not only needed but perhaps we should be pushing flights to their borders also? Maybe I'm just havering...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    There does seem to be, I'd like to almost call it, bravado? Bits swinging? No consequence pretty much. Rapid response from the airforce bases in the EU and UK are not only needed but perhaps we should be pushing flights to their borders also? Maybe I'm just havering...

    Whilst I’m all for saying the EU needs to get tougher on countries like this and Putin allies and proxies, you do have to be proportional. Probably having NATO aircraft screaming towards their border and pulling away last second allows them to escalate and in situations like that, someone gets hurt.

    The correct responses are probably still in the civil aviation and economic realm. But even they are not guaranteed - from EU countries willing to veto anti-Putin/ally measures to those looking to soften the cough for economic / energy security reasons, there’s a lot to get past.

    That being said this act was so brazen and so newsworthy they may have to act.

    I think the details of how forceful they were in getting the plane down will also drive the severity of the response, for example was the MiG threatening to shoot at them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Scot_in_Dublin


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Whilst I’m all for saying the EU needs to get tougher on countries like this and Putin allies and proxies, you do have to be proportional. Probably having NATO aircraft screaming towards their border and pulling away last second allows them to escalate and in situations like that, someone gets hurt.

    The correct responses are probably still in the civil aviation and economic realm. But even they are not guaranteed - from EU countries willing to veto anti-Putin/ally measures to those looking to soften the cough for economic / energy security reasons, there’s a lot to get past.

    That being said this act was so brazen and so newsworthy they may have to act.

    I think the details of how forceful they were in getting the plane down will also drive the severity of the response, for example was the MiG threatening to shoot at them.

    I think, if they hadn't brought a MiG into it, they may have been able to successfully spin it as a 'potential bomb threat'. The fact they dispatched that fully armed aircraft, when the flight was less than 10 minutes from it's original destination airport, and forced it to fly to Minsk, really messed up any chance of, of no it was for passenger and crew safety.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    I think, if they hadn't brought a MiG into it, they may have been able to successfully spin it as a 'potential bomb threat'. The fact they dispatched that fully armed aircraft, when the flight was less than 10 minutes from it's original destination airport, and forced it to fly to Minsk, really messed up any chance of, of no it was for passenger and crew safety.

    These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Scot_in_Dublin


    JohnC. wrote: »
    These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

    To an extent I agree. But you don't ask an aircraft that is on a close aproach to its final destination to suddenly divert to another country under armed escort.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    JohnC. wrote: »
    These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

    Also normal for them to get diverted to an alternative airport, although not normally the main airport in your capital and probably also not 3 minutes before it ceases to be your problem by flying out of your airspace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,103 ✭✭✭plodder


    I think it's more an EU thing than a NATO thing, and it's understandable that Simon Coveney focused on the hijacking aspect, but the kidnapping part isn't over. This incident is a lot like the way Russia has been bumping off its own citizens it wants to get rid of but are resident in other countries. So, surely the EU should be focusing on measures to get the guy returned alive and safe to his home, while he is still alive?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    Slightly off-topic and while this is a terrible event surely RyanAir must be loving the worldwide attention and free publicity as there is a picture of their aircraft on pretty much every newspaper in the world today?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    BailMeOut wrote: »
    Slightly off-topic and while this is a terrible event surely RyanAir must be loving the worldwide attention and free publicity as there is a picture of their aircraft on pretty much every newspaper in the world today?

    There is only one type of bad publicity with regards Airlines - accidents.

    As O'Leary commented, the crew did a great job in some very unusual and actually scary circumstances.

    Also did O'Leary make a comment about "KGB" being also on board and they left aircraft once it landed.
    Wouldn't be surprised if the Belarusians had been following the guy.

    BTW Belarusians in this sense are government state employees and government lackies. Just sayin' for the benefit of some pedantic types.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    plodder wrote: »
    I think it's more an EU thing than a NATO thing,

    In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭cailinoBAC


    Just still can't believe this! Well be interesting to see who exactly did not get back on board. 2 Belarusians and 4 Russians. One of each is Roman and his girlfriend. KGB would be Belarusian secret service, but since most of the others are Russian, are people just referring to KGB as the generic ex Soviet secret service (like it was really the Russians). The opposition leader was on the same flight last week. I see airbaltic seems to be avoiding flying over Belarus this morning.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭AlfaZen


    zom wrote: »
    In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

    So they blocked the plane from using the airspace.....

    They didn't claim a false bomb scare and force the plane to land with a military jet escort, remove Snowden from the plane never to be seen again.

    Yea, its the same thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,103 ✭✭✭plodder


    zom wrote: »
    In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)
    Been discussed on the thread extensively ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,861 ✭✭✭Christy42


    zom wrote: »
    In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

    The US has killed many innocent civilians. Murder is still considered to be a crime. What happened to Snowden was wrong and I believe he should be pardoned.

    However in this case I also believe a journalist should not be kidnapped and tortured nor do I believe that passenger flights should be diverted under false pretenses. But sure since a western country did it once we can stop caring about the fact that the journalist is soon to fall out of a 10th story window.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    JohnC. wrote: »
    These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

    Ryanair operate a hundreds of flights a day. 100s of thousands a year. Millions in a decade, never once have I heard of a bomb on one of these flights.

    Yet when a journalist critical of despositic criminal murderous regime is overflying that regime then sudenly there is a bomb? A remarkable story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,755 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    plodder wrote: »
    Been discussed on the thread extensively ;)

    Been bruited about in so many places all at once on English language Internet (probably many other languages too...) by lots of "people" since yesterday. That is fascinating in and of itself given it is a (formerly) obscure event from 8 years ago! One has to laugh (vs cry) I suppose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    Is Julian Assange still in prison?


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭bb12


    i absolutely believe belarus would have shot down this plane if they had ignored instructions to turn back...then would have conveniently blamed it on a bomb onboard. russia has previous form for this when they shot that airliner down during the crimea conflict. those passengers yesterday had a very lucky escape.

    that young man is very much on my mind today. these despotic leaders are doing their best to pull the world back into the era of the cold war. and they've been getting away with it for too long...no wonder there is such a rise around the world in this type of leader; russia, brazil, turkey, hungary...in the grand scheme of things, all of our democracies are at risk if these guys are continued to be let get away with actions such as these and they are going to continue to get more brazen as times goes on


  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭tjhook


    If somebody could please relieve me of my ignorance... :)

    I see a report that "Lithuania and Latvia were among countries which called for all international flights to avoid Belarusian airspace as a sanction against Belarusian authorities".

    How would this be a sanction? They must be talking about flights passing through the airspace - if they meant flights to/from Belarus surely they'd say that.

    I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭AlfaZen


    tjhook wrote: »
    If somebody could please relieve me of my ignorance... :)

    I see a report that "Lithuania and Latvia were among countries which called for all international flights to avoid Belarusian airspace as a sanction against Belarusian authorities".

    How would this be a sanction? They must be talking about flights passing through the airspace - if they meant flights to/from Belarus surely they'd say that.

    I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

    I'm not sure of the costs/charges involved for airlines but I think it just sets out to make an example of them. Plus it might affect Cargo flights into the country also.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭Hansanter


    Strange, after what happened yesterday at 1100 hrs today that Wizzair (W66285/WZZ6285 Kiev to Tallinn) are prepared to avoid Belarus yet Ryanair (FR3340/RYR7BJ Pafos to Tallinn) are not.
    H./


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