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Gay Cake Controversy!

24567…129

Comments

  • #32
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A black family is not a political campaign.

    A gay person or family is not a political campaign.

    A campaign poster/cake for gay marriage is a political campaign.

    A business should have the right to decline business it doesn't want, in particular for political campaigns it doesn't wish to be involved in.

    Yes, reading the link it seems it was a political message, which they probably should be allowed refuse.

    If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?


  • #33
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    Also, cakes cant be gay. they have no emotions.


  • #34
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    Activists crying victim and causing hassle for anyone and everyone because they didn't get what they want is all this is. Surprised the Equality Commission has nobody working there capable of actually investigating complaints before issuing threats of legal action. I somehow doubt there would be such letters if the complaint was about them refusing to print a cake saying support abortion.


  • #35
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    floggg wrote: »
    Yes, reading the link it seems it was a political message, which they should be allowed refuse.

    If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?

    That's a tough one. If the bakery are against SSM on religious grounds then we're into 'asking a Jewish butcher to make you a currywurst' territory. Similarly to how religious people shouldn't force their religious beliefs on you, you shouldn't force your social views on religious people.


  • #36
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    You'd think in this day and age they'd be grateful for the business.

    It's a cake FFS.


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  • #37
    Duggy747
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    I'm for gay marriage and all that jazz so I like seeing truly intolerant folk put in their place for their shenanigans, but crucifying a business in public when they don't want to be seen endorsing something political which they should be free to do so is going too far.

    Forcing them to change their decision or be fined is ridiculous, they either want to win people over or let them develop an underlying hatred for the likes of people who are gay / pro-SSM


  • #38
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Awkward Badger wrote: »
    I somehow doubt there would be such letters if the complaint was about them refusing to print a cake saying support abortion.

    Not as hypothetical as you might think. Already there are pro-choice activists who have decided to "express our opinion through cake".

    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2011/sep/29/cakes-and-right-to-choose?I


  • #39
    Seedy Arling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭Seedy Arling


    I'm pro SSM for cakes, so at the very yeast the cake shop owners can go suck a lemon.


  • #40
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Mr. Loverman wrote: »

    I don't know what to think about all this. I don't care if someone is gay or not, and I don't see why they can't get married, but should businesses be allowed to refuse custom based on religious beliefs? For example, should a muslim restaurant be forced to serve non-halal meat?

    Should businesses be allowed refuse people of other races or religions based religious beliefs?

    Your comparison to a Muslim restaurant being made to serve non-halal food is a false equivalence.

    The bakery wouldn't be required to provide any additional service to the couple they don't already provide. They would simply be required to offer their current services on equal terms irregardless of race, sexual orientation etc.

    So the equivalent scenario for your Muslim restaurant would be if they refused to sell halal food to non-Muslims.


  • #41
    RoboRat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    I somehow doubt there would be such letters if the complaint was about them refusing to print a cake saying support abortion.

    Agreed.

    I am all for gay marriage but if somebody holds a viewpoint against it, then they are entitled to it. If the issue was about the support gay marriage message rather than just refusing a gay couple then I feel they are entitled to hold their ground. If it was the latter then they are out of order.


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  • #42
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,060 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Maybe it was Bert they objected to rather than the message.

    He has serious form.

    Isn't Bert an Orangeman!


  • #43
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    floggg wrote: »
    Yes, reading the link it seems it was a political message, which they probably should be allowed refuse.

    If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?

    I personally wouldn't support them, but I wouldn't force them (or like to see them being forced) to participate in a business they don't wish to be involved in.

    That's certainly not was done here though.

    In fact, the case (described in the video) seems entirely flawed. The Equality Comission claim that the bakery discriminated against the customer based on his sexual orinetation, when it seems the bakery had not one iota of a clue what sexual orientation the man was. The bakery declined to back a political campaign that's all.


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I'd like to know exactly what the Equality Commission's letter said. If what's being reported is accurate it's fairly disappointing IMO.


  • #45
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Ironically, the businesses in these situations usually fare pretty well as like minded people in the community and their congregation will show their support for the right to refuse the issue.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    While I find the whole thing farcical, you have to wonder just how much time these people have on their hands if they can put so much effort into taking on a cake shop. It may be unfair but there's plenty more bakeries out there which will do the cake they want. If someone runs a business then they should be entitled to decide what they do and don't do.

    I wonder if there would be so much outrage if a cake shop refused to bake a cake which expressed a racist message?


  • #47
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    P_1 wrote: »
    That's a tough one. If the bakery are against SSM on religious grounds then we're into 'asking a Jewish butcher to make you a currywurst' territory. Similarly to how religious people shouldn't force their religious beliefs on you, you shouldn't force your social views on religious people.

    No - you're in the Jewish butcher being forced to serve kosher beef to the Christian territory.

    The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

    That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.


  • #48
    Mr. Loverman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭Mr. Loverman


    floggg wrote: »
    Should businesses be allowed refuse people of other races or religions based religious beliefs?

    Your comparison to a Muslim restaurant being made to serve non-halal food is a false equivalence.

    The bakery wouldn't be required to provide any additional service to the couple they don't already provide. They would simply be required to offer their current services on equal terms irregardless of race, sexual orientation etc.

    So the equivalent scenario for your Muslim restaurant would be if they refused to sell halal food to non-Muslims.

    Maybe, I dunno, I don't really care.

    I'm not sure what the solution is. We all have our own beliefs, so you can probably find discrimination in everything. Shopping around is probably the easiest solution.


  • #49
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    They had one of those "Management reserve the right to refuse admission" stickers on their front door yeah?

    I don't see why it's being made into such a big deal, a business should be able to choose whether or not they'll make products that support (or deride) a political agenda. Regardless of the religious motivations of the owners of the bakery.

    However, one has to consider, is the issue really just a cake and the message one looked to have put onto the cake? There have been a few articles put forward before of B&B's refusing to accommodate people when they've noticed it was a gay couple that booked the room, "based on their religious beliefs."


  • #50
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    floggg wrote: »
    The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

    That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.

    I really doubt that's the case here though.

    They declined the order because of it's political message. They had (I'm sure) no clue as to the sexual orientation or marital status of the customer. How could they? Do gay people wear a sign now?


  • #51
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    They had one of those "Management reserve the right to refuse admission" stickers on their front door yeah?

    I don't see why it's being made into such a big deal, a business should be able to choose whether or not they'll make products that support (or deride) a political agenda. Regardless of the religious motivations of the owners of the bakery.

    However, one has to consider, is the issue really just a cake and the message one looked to have put onto the cake? There have been a few articles put forward before of B&B's refusing to accommodate people when they've noticed it was a gay couple that booked the room, "based on their religious beliefs."
    iirc the B&B in question had it clear on their website and the couple knew it would be an issue


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  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    floggg wrote: »
    No - you're in the Jewish butcher being forced to serve kosher beef to the Christian territory.

    The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

    That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.

    No, it's what's on the cake that's the issue. Unless they've got some amazing Gaydar that means they can always tell if someone's gay or not and have never served a gay person before.


  • #53
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I personally wouldn't support them, but I wouldn't force them (or like to see them being forced) to participate in a business they don't wish to be involved in.

    Would you also support their right to refuse black people on grounds of their race?


  • #54
    Duggy747
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    floggg wrote: »
    Would you also support their right to refuse black people on grounds of their race?

    This isn't what happened, they didn't refuse to make the cake because the person was gay.


  • #55
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    No, it's what's on the cake that's the issue. Unless they've got some amazing Gaydar that means they can always tell if someone's gay or not and have never served a gay person before.

    I already said I think this case goes to far and they should be able to refuse to support a civil rights statement.

    I then went on to discussing the general right to refuse service, something other posters where also addressing.

    Please keep up guys.


  • #56
    cathyledger
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18 ✭cathyledger


    I reckon they just didnt like bert and thats why they refused :)


  • #57
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    floggg wrote: »
    Would you also support their right to refuse black people on grounds of their race?

    No. Nor would I support them refusing a cake for a gay person.

    But a wedding cake for a SSM couple (where SSM is not even legal in the jurisdiction), I would support their right not to make that and thereby lend support to a political campaign.


  • #58
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Mr. Loverman wrote: »
    Maybe, I dunno, I don't really care.

    I'm not sure what the solution is. We all have our own beliefs, so you can probably find discrimination in everything. Shopping around is probably the easiest solution.

    Shopping around is all well and good in principle. It only works where you have lots of other options or opportunities - ok which case you probably wouldn't need equality legislation in the first place.

    If you are a minority group and find a large number of business freely refuse you custom solely due to your minority status you lose to ability to shop around or participate equally in society.

    That's the ill equality legislation tries to cure. Thankfully we are at a stage where discrimination is the exception rather than the rule but we aren't too far removed from more whole scale bigotry - especially in the north.


  • #59
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Looks like everyone agrees that QueerSpace (or their supporter who ordered the cake) haven't (or certainly shouldn't have) a leg to stand on.


  • #60
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,432 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The Equality Commission is funded by the office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. The Equality Commission should be taking a case against their own funding body and against the NI government because they are also against gay marriage.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27201120

    If it is OK for the NI parliament to be against gay marriage it should be OK for a shop to have the same point of view on what is a political matter.


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  • #61
    chompdown
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭chompdown


    I wonder what would happen if a film company requested a porn actor to act in a gay porn. Would he be brought to court if he refused?

    Oh the inequality!


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