Free public transport

XPS_Zero wrote: »

87% of your taxes go on health, education and social welfare. The rest is things like the security services, military, administration and a smattering of other services. None of which is remotely unique to Ireland or even slightly unusual compared to other countries. Which of these would you suggest we get rid of and make private and funded by commercial fees?
Nearly all of them would cost way more for individuals to shoulder than spread out over society as a whole which is why we do them via tax in the first place.

Ireland is unusually dependent on income taxes to fund services. Property taxes and water fees were attempts at reducing this but both are severely hobbled.

Other countries can rely on a more diverse base of taxes to fund proposals like free travel. In the Irish context it makes little sense to tell a worker he doesn't have to buy a bus ticket anymore but now his taxes are higher to pay for it.

You need to consider what happens when the next recession rolls around the income tax receipts drop. Now your free public transport system is competing with health and education and will lose every time.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Except free public transport won't get people out of their cars it won't do anything to reduce climate change or emissions. The only people who it may attract to use public transport would be people who already use sustainable modes of transport ie walking or cycling to use public transport instead. More people will likely end up using public transport to go short journeys which they would otherwise walk.

How do you know this?
Have you studied what happened when free public transport was introduced in other places?
Or is it just 'common sense'?

Stephen15 wrote: »

The fact is within Dublin at least it is already cheaper to use public transport than to own a car. So if cost was the main basis as to why people don't use public transport then people would already be out of their cars and onto public transport. Public transport is already the cheapest form of motorised transport.

It is cheaper to use public transport than to own a car. But many people own cars already, so they are comparing the marginal cost of taking a trip by car to the cost of public transport. Plus, the marginal cost of taking the car might be invisible - it means going to the petrol station more often but there isn't a felt connection between the petrol station and the morning commute.

It may be the case that free public transport doesn't change commuting habits to any great extent. But it sounds like a testable proposition, where we don't need to rely on uninformed opinions.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Even if you already own a car with yearly costs such as tax and insurance and you are using it to travel to work or college it's going to be less to have a taxsaver ticket than it is to cover your weekly petrol costs incurred by daily commuting costs as someone who uses their car to get to and from work everyday is going spend an awful lot more on petrol than an occasional car user and that's not to mention parking charges aswell.

That is going to depend on a lot of factors, surely - car type, journey distance, etc etc. I know I could drive in and out of work every day for much less than the cost of the journey on the LUAS. (less than 10k each way, free parking)

(I don't, but I could)

Plus even if we said, for the sake of argument, that public transport was a couple of euro cheaper a week, that might not be enough to move the scales for a lot of people. While 15 euro/week cheaper would be.

Again, the best way to settle this is not by us trading scenarios but by looking at real-world data on the effects of free public transport on commuting patterns.

Not too many junkies and winos in Luxembourg, I imagine.

What's to stop undesirables from riding around all day for free just because they can?

Actually they don't.
It's the Luas they get on for free, but so can anyone else if they want to risk it, and if caught without a ticket can be thrown off

Drug addiction does not qualify for a free pass, there must be some other reason.
Do you want to give anyone and everyone the right to hang around on public transport all day if they want, with no possibility of ejecting them for not paying? How is that a good idea?

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think you mistakenly put that in the list of the differences between luxembourg and ireland.

I don't think we have chronic congestion.

I think there is appalling attitude from people, which has developed from a lack of knowledge of how to use those roads.

The utter lack of a will to enforce basic legislation just makes it worse.

The RSA and their advertising campaigns do not help

So that's an argument for tightening up the existing rules.

Free public transport doesn't do anything good for working commuters, apart from a relatively small saving (and tney already get tax relief on taxsaver tickets.)

What it does do is enable undesirables to take advantage of a public resource to the detriment of those who contribute to society.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Free public transport doesn't do anything good for working commuters, apart from a relatively small saving (and tney already get tax relief on taxsaver tickets.)

The saving from free public transport for working commuters would be significantly more than the pittance of relief they get on taxsaver tickets, particularly those on the lower rate of tax. Even if public transport were free those who have to drive to the bus/train station would still have to pay parking costs so it wouldn't be completely free for them.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What it does do is enable undesirables to take advantage of a public resource to the detriment of those who contribute to society.

I agree but junkies do add a bit of colour to the red luas

Seriously you are right about free public transport taking advantage of a public resource. OAPs are well behaved and pleasant and have contributed to the system. However the introduction of free travel all the time rather than at off-peak times significantly contributes to congestion on public transport at peak commuting times. Last week an entire train carriage was taken up by members of a 65 plus women's group on the 17.35 Heuston to Waterford. This meant the train was more congested than usual at the outset. Imagine a carriage full of junkies and they mayhem they would cause! :eek:

cgcsb wrote: »

If you have a car and free work place parking, you'll drive, no matter what PT is on offer.

I have a car and free workplace parking but I would rather brave public transport than the hell of the N7 particularly at the moment with the snail's pace of work in progress.

cgcsb wrote: »

If PT were free the first impact this would have is moving people who cycle and walk onto PT, which is counter productive given the limited capacity.

I don't agree. I used to live within cycling distance of work. Nothing then would have induced me to take public transport to work, even if it had been free. Many people who walk and cycle choose to do so for health reasons instead of sitting on public transport.

Also public transport routes may not be convenient for those who walk and cycle.

Free transport just won’t work in Ireland the capacity just isn’t there and I wouldn’t trust any party in this country to invest the money thats needed to bring it up to scratch, small improvements should be what is focused on starting with the bus connect plan and electrification of Dublin commuter rail lines.

Once BusConnects, MetroLink and expanded DART network are in place, I'd expect the focus to shift towards the Oslo model, which penalises driving by effectively removing all street parking, bar loading, ev charging and some disabled parking. The multi storeys must also be tackled, starting with BTs and Arnotts, more space should be handed over to walking and cycling. A new Tallaght-Beaumont metro and new luas lines should also be invested in. With a bit of momentum, Dublin can be the new Copenhagen. We spent so long aping what was standard practice in provincial parts of the UK, time to move on.

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I wouldn’t be confident of any of them all three have been delayed and redesigned at least once

Probably. Sure look we can just move to the Middle East for a while, wait for Ireland to implode, come home and start again.