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12-11-2018, 22:58   #46
Berties_Horse
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Originally Posted by AndrewJRenko View Post
The difficulty is that you've just made that up. It's not part of the forum rules for either forum.


Certainly, the cycling forum has frequent discussions about keeping cyclists safe. By and large, this involves getting motorists to comply with the law.







The best way to avoid the rest of us suffering is to point out how ridiculous any kind of collective responsibility is.


Do the rest of motorists suffer 'pesky drivers' labelling because of the few idiots driving round with no back lights because they don't know how their DRLs work?


Great, so let's stop motorists from getting away with routinely breaking speed limits and red lights, and then cyclists will certainly follow. The bigger problem is the motorists that kill and maim.




I don't think that's how policing works.


If I'm a pedestrian with no lights and a black jacket crossing the road and a car driver knocks me off, who are we going to blame?
Do you sincerely believe that, should we not acknowledge others on the road at all?
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12-11-2018, 23:09   #47
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Originally Posted by Mike1961 View Post

The best way to avoid the rest of us suffering is to point out how ridiculous any kind of collective responsibility is.

Do you sincerely believe that, should we not acknowledge others on the road at all?[/quote]
My point about collective responsibility was about the ridiculous suggestion that the actions of some law breaking cyclists give all cyclists a bad name.

The easiest way to prove how ridiculous it is is to suggest that the motorists who killed 3 or 4 people this week give all motorists a bad name.

I'm not sure I get your point about 'acknowledging'?
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12-11-2018, 23:19   #48
Berties_Horse
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Originally Posted by AndrewJRenko View Post
My point about collective responsibility was about the ridiculous suggestion that the actions of some law breaking cyclists give all cyclists a bad name.

The easiest way to prove how ridiculous it is is to suggest that the motorists who killed 3 or 4 people this week give all motorists a bad name.

I'm not sure I get your point about 'acknowledging'?
Fair enough, I assumed you were dismissing the concept of collective responsibility. You seized on my "rest of us" remark, and then somehow equated this with fatalities caused by motorists. That's quite the leap, I was making the point that certain people will utilise idiotic cyclists as cannon-fodder to make a blanket assumption that all cyclists are a menace on the road.

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12-11-2018, 23:32   #49
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I was making the point that certain people will utilise idiotic cyclists as cannon-fodder to make a blanket assumption that all cyclists are a menace on the road.
Yes, I get that some people will make that assumption. And I suggest that we challenge their assumption rather than play along with their game.

Ask them what they, as a motorist are doing about the 3 or 4 people killed by motorists each week. See how long it takes for them to work out that collective responsibility doesn't work.
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12-11-2018, 23:37   #50
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Yes, I get that some people will make that assumption. And I suggest that we challenge their assumption rather than play along with their game.

Ask them what they, as a motorist are doing about the 3 or 4 people killed by motorists each week. See how long it takes for them to work out that collective responsibility doesn't work.
"Us and them"

It's always the other side's fault.

If you want collective responsibility then you have to remove the terms 'cyclist' and 'motorist' from the discussion and replace them with 'road user'.
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12-11-2018, 23:41   #51
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Used to be you'd get Garda stopping cyclists for no lights. These days never. That's the problem.
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12-11-2018, 23:47   #52
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Used to be you'd have Garda. These days never. That's the problem.
FYP.
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12-11-2018, 23:50   #53
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It's always the other side's fault.

If you want collective responsibility then you have to remove the terms 'cyclist' and 'motorist' from the discussion and replace them with 'road user'.
The data shows clearly exactly who is responsible for road deaths. In a strong majority of cases, it is a motorist.
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12-11-2018, 23:51   #54
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Used to be you'd get Garda stopping cyclists for no lights. These days never. That's the problem.
I saw one doing just that in Ranelagh last week.

Probably the same one that was stopping cyclists breaking red lights there in the summer.
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12-11-2018, 23:57   #55
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The data shows clearly exactly who is responsible for road deaths. In a strong majority of cases, it is a motorist.
Can you cite that data please.
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13-11-2018, 00:00   #56
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I saw one doing just that in Ranelagh last week.

Probably the same one that was stopping cyclists breaking red lights there in the summer.
Garda overtime is ridiculous...
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13-11-2018, 07:44   #57
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The data shows clearly exactly who is responsible for road deaths. In a strong majority of cases, it is a motorist.
This thread is supposed to be about bike lights, not who kills most on the road. You can't help yourself polluting the thread with the same drivel as every other thread about cycling, I give up.
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13-11-2018, 08:30   #58
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This thread is supposed to be about bike lights, not who kills most on the road. You can't help yourself polluting the thread with the same drivel as every other thread about cycling, I give up.
I was just about to make just that point. The old "they kill more people" argument is ridiculous. Of course they kill more, there are more of them on the road and the manner of their vehicle means that they have a larger vehicle which is more dangerous. Should we ban lorries because they are even bigger?

I think the OP is more about people taking personal responsibility than about cyclists v car drivers v lorry drivers v speedboat drivers. The "oh they are worse, they kill more people" attitude is tired and a lame argument. Bike weight is about 10% that of the human (guess, if even) on it, of course a car is going to kill more people by their very nature.

And I think most people are in agreement - the small minority of cyclists who don't have lights need to get them and stop giving us all a bad name, and the Gardai need to start enforcing the law (yes, for all road users!)! End of thread.

But sure hey, it only takes 1 poster to drag the debate down to "them v us".

Last edited by incentsitive; 13-11-2018 at 08:35.
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13-11-2018, 08:36   #59
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I think the OP is more about people taking personal responsibility than about cyclists v car drivers v lorry drivers v speedboat drivers. The "oh they are worse" attitude is tired and a lame argument.
Indisagree. I think the OP was an attempt to start a cyclist bashing thread.

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And I think most people are in agreement - the small minority of cyclists who don't have lights need to get them and stop giving us all a bad name, and the Gardai need to start enforcing the law (yes, for all road users!)! End of thread.
This is true as has been repeatedly emphasised on Boards in countless threads. It would be near impossible to find a cyclist on Boards that will defend people with no lights.
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13-11-2018, 08:41   #60
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Hmmm....maybe its how we read it Fighting Tao! I don't think he was. I think he was just making the point.

Out of curiousity, has anybody ever challenged a cyclist on it? I have done it and won't again.

Now I would wonder if lights, helmets, high-vis, etc should be exempt from VAT for example (maybe they are already?). But its hardly the 20 quid it costs which is the barrier to people doing it.

You won't find a cyclist who will defend one with no lights, but you will find somebody ready to jump in with the "drivers are worse" attitude!
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