Wasted Heritage Buildings - Your nominations

Judgement Day · 17-02-2010 10:44pm #1

A new thread on the Commuting & Transport forum advocating the transformation of the old MGWR railway terminus at Broadstone brought me back to yet another of my pet hobby horses - State-owned heritage properties that are not being used to anything like their full potential.
Broadstone Station would definitely be right up there as would my first nomination - the wonderful Shelton Abbey near Arklow - currently used as an open prison.

Surely a travesty using this fine building for prisoners when it could be the premier tourist attraction in County Wicklow.
Another wasted asset a few miles further south is Johnstown Castle near Wexford town. In use by Teagasc (the Agriculture & Food Authority) - for many years the grounds of this superb mock Gothic castle have been open to the public but the house is strictly off-limits. Despite being proposed for development as a tourist facility the Teagasc staff have shown a marked reluctance to quit the poorly maintained building.

The whole project now appears to have been abandoned. There are numerous other fine State-owned properties around the country in various states of misuse/decay - please nominate your own personal favourites.:)

zonEEE · 18-02-2010 12:36am

Elsinore Lodge

Yeats home in sligo, i think its gone beyond repair

Judgement Day · 18-02-2010 1:17am

Banagher, Co.Offaly has a unique complex of military buildings - forts, martello towers etc built to defend the Shannon crossing and prevent enemy (French) ships from coming up the river. While some preservation work has been carried out by a local historical group, these important buildings are very neglected and in terms of heritage/tourism appear to be totally overlooked.

Further upstream at Shannonbridge even more impressive fortifications exist also in various states of decay - at least they were the last time I was there - and I believe that they are also in State ownership.

Pic below shows important defensive structures within Shannonbridge Fort - save for the ivy they could have been built yesterday! Another major tourist attraction going to waste.

Judgement Day · 18-02-2010 12:56pm

Two more, important State-owned buildings came to mind this morning - Curraghchase House at Kilcolman in County Limerick in the 'care' of Coillte for many years - a roofless shell surrounded by a 1,000 acre forest park;

and Kilmacurragh House near Rathdrum in County Wicklow also in the care of Coillte but with some of the grounds now maintained by the National Botanic Gardens as an arboretum. This house is one of the few remaining Queen Anne period houses in the country and has been let go to complete wrack and ruin by the State - it's not too late to save it but it soon will be! http://www.botanicgardens.ie/kilmac/kilmhome.htm

Judgement Day · 18-02-2010 1:16pm

Daingean Reformatory in County Offaly is another State-owned complex used by the OPW as a dump secure store for surplus National Museum artefacts - all sorts of plans have been conjured for it over the years but it still remains semi-derelict and its exact contents a closely guarded secret.

trad · 18-02-2010 1:21pm

The Magazine Fort in the Phoenix Park.

Zebra3 · 18-02-2010 5:08pm

What a waste.

Judgement Day · 19-02-2010 2:43pm

Can't understand the Customs House posting as the building is in use, well maintained and visible/accessible to the public.

Another only too visible building which is now an eyesore is the Williamstown Martello Tower - just south of Booterstown on the DART line. This tower was built circa 1804 as part of the coastal defences installed to protect against an expected French invasion. Proposed for restoration as a visitor centre, complete with replica guns etc, the building remains in a sad state and the graffiti is now far worse than in this photograph.

Judgement Day · 19-02-2010 2:58pm

[IMG]http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/libraries/dún-laoghaire-rathdown-county-library/reading-room/big-houses-of-ireland/maretimo.jpg[/IMG]

While not strictly within the scope of this topic - they are not in State ownership (but should be) - Cloncurry's Towers at Maretimo near Blackrock in County Dublin are another example of important buildings being allowed to go to wrack and ruin. The bridge and adjacent buildings were built to coincide with the opening of the Dublin & Kingstown Railway in 1834 as compensation for local landlord Baron Cloncurry. Originally the complex included the bridge, a private pier and bathing pavilion (far left of picture). The pavilion has in recent years been partially demolished by yobs while the towers and railings are in an indescribable state. Another major eyesore on the DART line!

Amtmann · 19-02-2010 3:10pm

Great thread, Judgement Day.

No pictures, but the Elizabeth Fort in Cork could be made into a dedicated museum.

There are also numerous old late medieval/early modern tower houses lying derelict all over the country. I think it might be an idea for the state to purchase several of these around the country as well as some adjacent land and do them up, restoring them authentically. Archaeologists could then be used as consultants, and genuinely medieval villages could be created around them as a tourist attraction. On suitable occasions you could have open air feasts, re-enactments, and even jousting competitions every so often that would draw in large numbers of medievalists from all around Europe. It would be a seasonal affair, and quite different from what's currently on offer. Bunratty of course does have a folk village; but it isn't medieval and it's not what I would have in mind for these 'Tower House Villages'.

Zebra3 · 19-02-2010 3:29pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Can't understand the Customs House posting as the building is in use, well maintained and visible/accessible to the public.

I posted the Customs House in the thread cos it's a fantastic building that houses civil servants.

Therefore it's a wasted heritage building.

not too difficult to understand I hope....

Lord ButterSlip · 20-02-2010 12:10am

Good thread

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 12:13pm

Going slightly off topic again here - another non State owned building - Dromore Castle in County Limerick. Built for the Earl of Limerick in the 1860s and seen from a distance appeared very like the Rock of Cashel - a magnificent ruin when I was last there in the late 1970s (?) - but when I googled it last night this came up:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/leader-memories/Dromore-Castle-How-it-came.4820521.jp

Surely it hasn't been demolished?? Anyone in Limerick know? Incidentally how on earth did the 'thing' below it get planning permission?

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 2:15pm

Just two more links to derelict historic properties - with plenty of pics - mainly in private ownership:

http://www.nobodyhome.ie

http://www.abandonedireland.com/

This one has been on the Boards before but is constantly being updated.

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 2:21pm

Moore Hall in County Mayo - yet another Coillte property. Pic from Abandoned Ireland.com

Paddysnapper · 20-02-2010 2:32pm

Doneraile Court. Co. Cork. A fortune was spent on a new roof, but it has been boarded up for years now. I dread to think what it must be like inside.

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 2:44pm

Paddysnapper wrote: »

Doneraile Court. Co. Cork. A fortune was spent on a new roof, but it has been boarded up for years now. I dread to think what it must be like inside.

I was at Doneraile Court in the late 1970's when the Irish Georgian Society http://www.igs.ie were involved in its restoration. I believe it is still owned by the State and was leased to the IGS but that it has now reverted to OPW control. Disappointing to hear that it's still not open to the public.

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 2:50pm

Dangan Castle, Co.Meath - childhood home of Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington. Apparently derelict for many decades. I seem to remember it being for sale in the last couple of years - anybody know? It would seem to have potential as a tourist attraction given the famous connection and its location close to Trim Castle, the Boyne Valley etc.

proxy?max_age=604800&url=http%3A%2F%2Fs0.geograph.org.uk%2Fphotos%2F98%2F71%2F987176_e7aae200.jpg

proxy?max_age=604800&url=http%3A%2F%2Fs0.geograph.org.uk%2Fphotos%2F98%2F71%2F987176_e7aae200.jpg

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 3:07pm

Gunsborough House, Listowel, Co.Kerry
Birthplace of Lord Kitchener of Khartoum. Apparently still exists but in a ruinous state. A couple of years ago I spoke to a man from the area, from an impecable nationalist background, and he was beside himself that such an historic building was being let fall-down. Even in the heartland of Irish republicanism much benefit could be brought to the local area by the sensitive development of such a building. Lord Kitchener must surely be one of the most iconic symbols of the 20th century?

2ocqn930ubywvi8z0wl9dhefnm6z926$pzv3gc2p5ggkwi9sq6f30zjcm4557i1

Rebelheart · 20-02-2010 5:00pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Gunsborough House, Listowel, Co.Kerry
Birthplace of Lord Kitchener of Khartoum. Apparently still exists but in a ruinous state. A couple of years ago I spoke to a man from the area, from an impecable nationalist background, and he was beside himself that such an historic building was being let fall-down. Even in the heartland of Irish republicanism much benefit could be brought to the local area by the sensitive development of such a building. Lord Kitchener must surely be one of the most iconic symbols of the 20th century?

What the f uck? Why should Irish taxpayers' money be spent doing up a house - an ugly alien Georgian one at that - belonging to an extraordinarily evil bastard like Kitchener - and even you must know that it was he who presided over the British concentration camps in South Africa which murdered - not just "killed" as British apologists would contend - tens of thousands of women and children.

What, pray tell, did that guy or his ilk do for Ireland - never mind the infinitely more important human race? Clearly, he has done much for British imperialism (particularly the diamond industry), which at the end of the day is really why you seek his place to be "preserved". At any rate, Kitchener was a "pure-blooded" (to maintain the spurious constructions) Englishman born of English (not Anglo-Irish) parents.

I surmise by your use of 'an historic' rather than 'a historic' that you are British, or have out-dated aspirations in that regard (Check the 'Usage' section under 'An' in the OED to see what I'm talking about).

There are over 100,000 sites in Ireland today which could be classified as national heritage sites. Some of these exist on all sides of my own home and it is only myself and a few local people who keep them looking decent. The money it would take to preserve a house once lived in by an absolute racist evil f uck - and I really do understate the situation - like Horatio Herbert Kitchener could maintain and record at least 1000 of these sites near me. But, of course, in this case we are talking about sites which overwhelming predate British rule in Ireland so it's not exactly 'in' with the same old shi tehawks who are running around the place lobbying to commemorate something - anything - from that profoundly anti-Irish parasitical ethno-political grouping, British settlers in Ireland.

Lord ButterSlip · 20-02-2010 7:12pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

What the f uck? Why should Irish taxpayers' money be spent doing up a house - an ugly alien Georgian one at that - belonging to an extraordinarily evil bastard like Kitchener - and even you must know that it was he who presided over the British concentration camps in South Africa which murdered - not just "killed" as British apologists would contend - tens of thousands of women and children.

What, pray tell, did that guy or his ilk do for Ireland - never mind the infinitely more important human race? Clearly, he has done much for British imperialism (particularly the diamond industry), which at the end of the day is really why you seek his place to be "preserved". At any rate, Kitchener was a "pure-blooded" (to maintain the spurious constructions) Englishman born of English (not Anglo-Irish) parents.

I surmise by your use of 'an historic' rather than 'a historic' that you are British, or have out-dated aspirations in that regard (Check the 'Usage' section under 'An' in the OED to see what I'm talking about).

There are over 100,000 sites in Ireland today which could be classified as national heritage sites. Some of these exist on all sides of my own home and it is only myself and a few local people who keep them looking decent. The money it would take to preserve a house once lived in by an absolute racist evil f uck - and I really do understate the situation - like Horatio Herbert Kitchener could maintain and record at least 1000 of these sites near me. But, of course, in this case we are talking about sites which overwhelming predate British rule in Ireland so it's not exactly 'in' with the same old shi tehawks who are running around the place lobbying to commemorate something - anything - from that profoundly anti-Irish parasitical ethno-political grouping, British settlers in Ireland.

I think you are quite wrong to dismiss a building (which IS notable) on the grounds of a dislikable occupant. Heritage sites are old, the only thing is how old is old? Places from 1750 and back are old and therefore Heritage sites whether there is 1000 of them around the country or not. "an ugly alien Georgian one at that" is ridiculous as if you want to talk about alien buildings how about the hundreds of castles around the country built by the Norman "aliens". Don’t be so silly. The history of a country is made up of ALL the things in its past and you have just dismissed 1730-1840.

Rebelheart · 20-02-2010 7:31pm

Lord ButterSlip wrote: »

I think you are quite wrong to dismiss a building (which IS notable) on the grounds of a dislikable occupant. Heritage sites are old, the only thing is how old is old? Places from 1750 and back are old and therefore Heritage sites whether there is 1000 of them around the country or not. "an ugly alien Georgian one at that" is ridiculous as if you want to talk about alien buildings how about the hundreds of castles around the country built by the Norman "aliens". Don’t be so silly. The history of a country is made up of ALL the things in its past and you have just dismissed 1730-1840.

Well, a few fields away from me is a late medieval tomb with the writing now barely legible in Latin (due to it being out in the rain) where a well-known local guy was buried. Along the tomb, which is on an ancient church site and surrounded by walls which are at least 700 years old, are carvings of this man's children and wife on one side and coats of arms of numerous families which had intermarried with him on the other. It is neither a heritage site nor noted on a single tourist map. It is abandoned. There are numerous more examples like this which, on antiquity grounds alone, are far more worthy of preservation than this house, a house which if planned nowadays would be rejected as its design is not keeping in tune with local surroundings.

It is hard for people from Dublin and near Dublin to appreciate just how alien Georgian architecture is to the landscape of large areas of rural Ireland. Visit Inis Mór and look at the single Georgian house on the island and it might sink in.

Lord ButterSlip · 20-02-2010 7:43pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

Well, a few fields away from me is a late medieval tomb with the writing now barely legible in Latin (due to it being out in the rain) where a well-known local guy was buried. Along the tomb, which is on an ancient church site and surrounded by walls which are at least 700 years old, are carvings of this man's children and wife on one side and coats of arms of numerous families which had intermarried with him on the other. It is neither a heritage site nor noted on a single tourist map. It is abandoned. There are numerous more examples like this which, on antiquity grounds alone, are far more worthy of preservation than this house, a house which if planned nowadays would be rejected as its design is not keeping in tune with local surroundings.

I understand what you are saying its just these have been built and so they are now part of our history.

Rebelheart wrote: »

It is hard for people from Dublin and near Dublin to appreciate just how alien Georgian architecture is to the landscape of large areas of rural Ireland. Visit Inis Mór and look at the single Georgian house on the island and it might sink in.

Im from Kilkenny, rural at that, and I appriecate the historical signifigance of all forms of architecture whether I personally like them or not. And I hope you dont mean that everything that isnt a 2 roomed cottage to be left to go derelict in Ireland.

Judgement Day · 20-02-2010 8:43pm

What the f uck? Why should Irish taxpayers' money be spent doing up a house - an ugly alien Georgian one at that - belonging to an extraordinarily evil bastard like Kitchener - and even you must know that it was he who presided over the British concentration camps in South Africa which murdered - not just "killed" as British apologists would contend - tens of thousands of women and children.

What, pray tell, did that guy or his ilk do for Ireland - never mind the infinitely more important human race? Clearly, he has done much for British imperialism (particularly the diamond industry), which at the end of the day is really why you seek his place to be "preserved". At any rate, Kitchener was a "pure-blooded" (to maintain the spurious constructions) Englishman born of English (not Anglo-Irish) parents.

I surmise by your use of 'an historic' rather than 'a historic' that you are British, or have out-dated aspirations in that regard (Check the 'Usage' section under 'An' in the OED to see what I'm talking about).

There are over 100,000 sites in Ireland today which could be classified as national heritage sites. Some of these exist on all sides of my own home and it is only myself and a few local people who keep them looking decent. The money it would take to preserve a house once lived in by an absolute racist evil f uck - and I really do understate the situation - like Horatio Herbert Kitchener could maintain and record at least 1000 of these sites near me. But, of course, in this case we are talking about sites which overwhelming predate British rule in Ireland so it's not exactly 'in' with the same old shi tehawks who are running around the place lobbying to commemorate something - anything - from that profoundly anti-Irish parasitical ethno-political grouping, British settlers in Ireland.

Jesus - it's very hard to know how to deal with your outburst without resorting to being personally offensive and I would like to keep this thread about neglected heritage buildings rather than politics so I will refrain. Please find somewhere else to continue your assault on the wicked Brits and fellow inhabitants of this island who are not of your political persuasion? I genuinely mean this - please leave this thread alone.

Rebelheart · 21-02-2010 2:40pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I would like to keep this thread about neglected heritage buildings rather than politics so I will refrain. Please find somewhere else to continue your assault on the wicked Brits and fellow inhabitants of this island who are not of your political persuasion?

Clearly, when you open your post about one particular house being the birthplace of Kitchener - 'Birthplace of Lord Kitchener of Khartoum' - and end it with a little ode to poor Horatio: ' Lord Kitchener must surely be one of the most iconic symbols of the 20th century?' you are engaging in much, much more than mere architectural interest à la Desmond Guinness.

Judgement Day · 21-02-2010 3:18pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

Clearly, when you open your post about one particular house being the birthplace of Kitchener - 'Birthplace of Lord Kitchener of Khartoum' - and end it with a little ode to poor Horatio: ' Lord Kitchener must surely be one of the most iconic symbols of the 20th century?' you are engaging in much, much more than mere architectural interest à la Desmond Guinness.

At the risk of prolonging this argument I used the word iconic to describe Kitchener (and the accompanying recruiting poster) to illustrate my point that even people who have never heard of him will have seen his face on millions of adapted posters which have appeared over the years advertising a myriad of events.
It is a simple fact that the bulk of visible architecture in this country dates from the centuries of Norman/British 'occupation'. With the exception of Newgrange, a few Ogham stones, Dolmens, Staigue Fort etc most of our collective heritage of built items dates from post 1170. Nothing you or I can do about that. My point is that we should make the maximum use of what we have inherited be it 'alien Georgian buildings', 1798 memorials, or whatever. An interpretive/visitor centre at Gunsborough House, for instance, need not present Kitchener in an heroic light - the whole story could be told warts and all. My point is that we have few enough genuine historic sites open to the public and we can ill afford to ignore those that we have. I bring no political baggage to this thread but as you so astutely noticed I am from a Unionist background - does this make my posts any less valid? Living where I do, not far from from Vinegar Hill, I see a massive opportunity for a 1798 Battlefield Centre....again warts and all...it is our common heritage! As I pointed out on another thread I have had reason to complain to the local authorities about graffiti on the 1798 memorials both here and in New Ross - when did you last complain about the defacement of a British memorial?

Judgement Day · 22-02-2010 12:18am

Funny how things come full circle. I was trying to think of some more heritage buildings to post here, to get the thread back 'on track', and I thought of CIE's Inchicore Works. Instead of putting the Railway Museum in Broadstone and shifting Bus Eireann to Inchicore, why not put the museum in Inchicore Works? The original Great Southern & Western Railway locomotive running shed, look-out tower and adjacent signal cabin all survive and are very fine Gothic style buildings worthy of preservation in their own right. Like so much other CIE property the former running shed, seen here, is now used for offices and surely room could be found somewhere else on the 72 (!) acre site to accomodate these staff? The location would be ideal for a museum - not operated by CIE - and would be rail connected, close to existing visitor attractions, schools etc. More pics at this link: http://ireland.archiseek.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/inchicore/irish_rail_works/index.html

Judgement Day · 22-02-2010 10:19pm

Tonight's offering is from my old hometown and hard to beat in terms of the misuse of a heritage building. This is the wonderful mock tudor Town Hall in Bray, a gift to the town from the Earl of Meath in the early 1880's, and it is now occupied by a MacDonalds fast food outlet! The building was restored to its former glory in 1991 before eventually being let to MacDonalds in 1997. More info here: http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/Surveys/Buildings/BuildingoftheMonth/Archive/Name,646,en.html

Judgement Day · 23-02-2010 6:33pm

Today's sad contribution comes from Foynes in County Limerick. The former railway station is gradually returning to nature. The rail line is still intact all the way back into Limerick but CIE/IE no longer bother to maintain it. Foynes is home to the the Flying Boat Museum and surely the station should be preserved as a complimentary heritage attraction?

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1250/1126708685_8a21d1fdb4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://flickr.com/photos/90134546%40N00/1126708685/&usg=__77zupMfTePODU1i24x_pQmQwiws=&h=370&w=500&sz=197&hl=en&start=49&itbs=1&tbnid=T-zci7t9V2x-ZM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfoynes%2Brailway%2Bstation%26start%3D36%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1

More pictures here: http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/f/foynes/foynes_old(1997)1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/f/foynes/index.shtml&usg=__uT6njjTY6nLl91dwy2XKrrKjYQ8=&h=399&w=598&sz=53&hl=en&start=1&itbs=1&tbnid=G6b5yNFPw0TxZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfoynes%2Bstation%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1

Judgement Day · 28-02-2010 3:47pm

I have to include this one although poor old Rebelheart will be pulling his hair out.
The Bank of Ireland in College Green, Dublin, former home of the Irish Parliament prior to the Act of Union in 1800. A magnificent building which deserves a better use than filthy commerce conducted by a totally discredited institution like BoI. Properly developed it could be an enormous tourist attraction for the Capital and the rest of us could get a proper look inside the place. Perhaps now that the State now owns 15% of BoI they should take the buildings too in return for the impending further investment?

Amtmann · 28-02-2010 4:16pm

This continues to be an excellent thread. ("Wow" is all I can say to that McDonalds, btw!) It is actually amazing that we neglect so much of the built heritage in this country - you'd really have to wonder why. Of course, we're also really bad at maintaining natural heritage (such as our forests, hedgerows and rivers), so I guess it comes down to a quirk of national character. There might also be an element of nativism involved. But on the point of buildings used for evil purposes, or inhabited by wicked men, yesterday I toured the former rally grounds of the Nazi Party at Nuremberg. I have lots of pictures. It's quite interesting to see what the Germans have done (or have not done) with the vast area. Sorry for the digression!

Wasted Heritage Buildings - Your nominations

Comments