Sub 60 seconds 400m - Advice for the off season needed

Pisco Sour · 20-06-2011 11:45am #1

In Australia, so I'm 4 months away from the start of the track season, which begins around 10th October and will stretch until early March with 14 track meets and a few extra ones at the end of the year. So the track season lasts for a solid 4-5 months, which gives lots of opportunities at breaking PBs.

Since arriving in Oz last Christmas I have got the tail end of last season's track meets and ran PB's for 200m (28.2), 400m (1:03.9) and 800m (2:34.9).

Since then I ran a 10km recently and set a new PB of 45 mins 24 seconds. However since doing the track stuff I have realised that I don't enjoy the distance running as much as I thought. I was happy with my 10k time but really lack the motivation to go out for long runs in the dark and cold after work. I guess I just don't see the appeal anymore in plodding away running slow 10km times and super-slow Marathon times (even though I'm very proud of my one and only marathon).

It's a shame it has taken me a few years to realise that I am far better at sprint events and wish I had figured it out sooner. So for the foreseeable future I want to focus on my strengths in this sport (sprint events and 800m) and most importantly what I enjoy more, and what I enjoy training for more.

So I've set a target for this coming summer of improving my times over all short distances from 100m to 800m, but specifically to run sub 60 seconds for 400m.

With my current PB being 63.9 seconds, I have a good bit to cut off that time (exactly 4 seconds).

What I would like advice on is how can I best prepare for the summer season now during the off season? Bearing in mind I will be spending a good chunk fo the next few months travelling and working on a farm in the sticks, so I want to keep things reasonably light. But should I get out a few times a week for some light strides at this time of the year to keep the speed in the legs? What should I do to help strengthen the calves for next season? I picked up injuries pretty easily last year, so how is the best way to build up more strength in the legs?

I don't want to do anything too intense as I am travelling, and being on a tour bus and camping in the Kimberleys is not really conducive to intensive training, so I want to keep it light for the time being and to keep myself ticking over, with the sprint events in mind.

What is the best approach?

All advice welcome.

gerard65 · 20-06-2011 12:03pm

Have you seen this link from the MD thread:
http://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/library/2007/Sprint%20Training/Clyde_Hart3.pdf

Loads of great reading on 400m training.

Pisco Sour · 20-06-2011 1:59pm

gerard65 wrote: »

Have you seen this link from the MD thread:
http://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/library/2007/Sprint%20Training/Clyde_Hart3.pdf

Loads of great reading on 400m training.

Fantastic stuff. Thanks. I've added it to my favourites

Keep the tips coming guys.

Pisco Sour · 20-06-2011 3:30pm

That is a fantastic link on 400m training. Really really helpful.

Just wondering what sort of areas should I focus on over the next few months? Strength Endurance, Speed Endurance, Tempo Endurance etc?

With regards Tempo endurance, how fast should they be run at? At what percentage of maximum speed?

Also last season I got a calf strain in training. My calves are clearly not very strong and unable to deal with the demands of running on my toes (something I am not used to). What is the best way of building up strength in my calves and legs? Is there any sort of exercises I can do at this time of the year to strengthen my lower body?

As I said above I want to keep it light for now due to travel commitments. Maybe 2 days a week of good sessions and then exercises the other days. But I'm a complete novice at this. I have decent natural speed, but not a great deal of knowledge on how to prepare properly.

There must be some sprinter boardsies out there

Woddle · 20-06-2011 3:55pm

You need thirtyfoot to have a read

If you can get your hands on Jack Daniels running formula he has tables drawn up based on your times that will give you all your training paces (not for 400m but he does give them for runners concentrating on 800/1500.

dna_leri · 20-06-2011 6:21pm

04072511 wrote: »

That is a fantastic link on 400m training. Really really helpful.

Just wondering what sort of areas should I focus on over the next few months? Strength Endurance, Speed Endurance, Tempo Endurance etc?

With regards Tempo endurance, how fast should they be run at? At what percentage of maximum speed?

Also last season I got a calf strain in training. My calves are clearly not very strong and unable to deal with the demands of running on my toes (something I am not used to). What is the best way of building up strength in my calves and legs? Is there any sort of exercises I can do at this time of the year to strengthen my lower body?

As I said above I want to keep it light for now due to travel commitments. Maybe 2 days a week of good sessions and then exercises the other days. But I'm a complete novice at this. I have decent natural speed, but not a great deal of knowledge on how to prepare properly.

There must be some sprinter boardsies out there

Another good resource for 400m training is Brian MacKenzie - start here.
His training calculator is particularly useful when starting out.

Regarding calf strengthening, in my experience hill reps or toe raises work - sometimes called heel raises too - where you lift your body onto your toes, hold and slowly lower. These can be done anywhere anytime, progress to using weights.

There is a lot of information out there, but you have to relearn the terminology again as a sprinters tempo is different from an endurance runners tempo. Tempo endurance for a 400m runner might be 10 x 200m @ 75% with 2 min recovery (more like a distance runners speed work!).

Pisco Sour · 21-06-2011 10:58am

dna_leri wrote: »

Another good resource for 400m training is Brian MacKenzie - start here.
His training calculator is particularly useful when starting out.

Regarding calf strengthening, in my experience hill reps or toe raises work - sometimes called heel raises too - where you lift your body onto your toes, hold and slowly lower. These can be done anywhere anytime, progress to using weights.

There is a lot of information out there, but you have to relearn the terminology again as a sprinters tempo is different from an endurance runners tempo. Tempo endurance for a 400m runner might be 10 x 200m @ 75% with 2 min recovery (more like a distance runners speed work!).

Brilliant stuff. Thanks.

Having a more detailed look through the first link posted and it is a real eye opener on the various workouts required.

Last year all I would do would be something like 4x200 or 5x150 or 3x300 or something like that, with the club on the track. Would be running as fast as I can, and would have 4 minutes rest. Reading this makes me realise that that may have been risking injury. The speed sessions according to this article should have up to 10 minutes rest. So I should have been perhaps doing those repeats last year at around 75-80% given the short rest, rather than running probably at 95%.

A few questions though:

1) What on earth are harness runs? Cant find any info on the internet.

2) For strength endurance hill runs, how fast should they be run at? Full speed or say 75%

3) How long a rest is needed in between each hill run.

Woddle wrote: »

You need thirtyfoot to have a read

I'll PM him now and get him in on the action.

ecoli · 21-06-2011 11:10am

04072511 wrote: »

A few questions though:

1) What on earth are harness runs? Cant find any info on the internet.

Effectively someone has a strap around you (similar to a horse bridle) their job is to provide a level of resistance so you are working harder on driving your body (in terms of form) building explosive power. An alternative is a weighted sled

http://www.ballsout.com/sled.jpg

04072511 wrote: »

2) For strength endurance hill runs, how fast should they be run at? Full speed or say 75%

I would say about 75-80% personally definitely not full Speed

04072511 wrote: »

How long a rest is needed in between each hill run.

For 75-80% I would be inclined to sat 4 min rest for every min worked (or 4 min if under) again other people may have different ideas regarding this

Again these are just voice opinions from my observations of training schedules a few sub 50 runners I know. I dont have any experience coaching sprinters so hopefully 30ft will come along and provide some expertise past my reading of background theory

Gandalph · 21-06-2011 11:36am

Heya, I used to be a 400-200-100m runner a couple years back (gaev up due to stress of a torn hamstring). I was doing 50.10 when I was 16-17 and numerous internationals for Ireland so Id say I got decent coaching.

My winter training (normally 5 days a week, some of my coaches would say this was too much but I had nothing better to do) consisted of stuff like

- Hill runs once a week
- slay runs (that harness you ask about)
- 600's -500's
- fartlek
- interval training
- I was prob too young for weights but Id say bang them in somewere
- I used to concentrate on form running myself
- Core stability along with plyometrics

My memory is a bit rusty but my training revolved somewere around these. I have the mentality that you shouldnt think too much about your training, thats what your coach is for but if your training yourself then you have no choice but to debate about it.

Pisco Sour · 21-06-2011 11:44am

Gandalph wrote: »

Heya, I used to be a 400-200-100m runner a couple years back (gaev up due to stress of a torn hamstring). I was doing 50.10 when I was 16-17 and numerous internationals for Ireland so Id say I got decent coaching.

My winter training (normally 5 days a week, some of my coaches would say this was too much but I had nothing better to do) consisted of stuff like

- Hill runs once a week
- slay runs (that harness you ask about)
- 600's -500's
- fartlek
- interval training
- I was prob too young for weights but Id say bang them in somewere
- I used to concentrate on form running myself
- Core stability along with plyometrics

My memory is a bit rusty but my training revolved somewere around these. I have the mentality that you shouldnt think too much about your training, thats what your coach is for but if your training yourself then you have no choice but to debate about it.

Thanks Gandalph. Very helpful.

I am a member of a club here in Melbourne and they have started their speed and strength work to prepare for the summer season. The problem is I leave Melbourne in 2 weeks to do farm work and to travel and wont be back until later in the year so I will pretty much have to do everything on my own.

Added to that I will not have access to a track (certainly not when living in the sticks). This isn't ideal but I'm not going to make excuses, I cant still get out there and do sessions on football pitches, hills etc.

I'm no David Gillick or anything, at the moment I'm only looking for something light to start off (no point doing heavy training when travelling). The summer season is long and I will obviously get fitter and faster as it goes on (I dont know if sub 60 is too modest a target considering my current PB of 63.9, but that is the number one goal to start with).

Bearing all this in mind what would you suggest to start things off for the next couple of months? Should I focus on strength endurance and tempo endurance and some exercises to strengthen the calves to begin with?

Goofy · 21-06-2011 11:52am

This far out from the season (4 months) Speed endurance should be your main aim. Sessions with reps of 600 to 300 with short recovery for example.

The tempo you should be running you will figure out after a few sessions. (you will get the tempo wrong in the first few) You should aim to be out on your feet at the end of the session but still finish the session. You should be trying to keep the runs as consistent as possible. The times will get slower over the session but try and keep the drop off at a minimum. This way you will learn what tempo is right for you. It is a balancing act and sometimes we all get it wrong.

Core is very important for sprinting. You should try and do a quick core session most days (5-10 mins). I do mine after my warm down. (if i can still do a sit up at that stage

)

Achilles and calf problems are very common for sprinters.( i have chronic achilles tendonosis) Lots of hard training on a hard track. When ever my Achilles flares up I try to do my sessions on the grass if possible. The softer ground tends to help. Current studies tend to prefer dynamic strengthening (ie ankle hops and hill sprints) than static (ie ankle raises)

menoscemo · 21-06-2011 11:53am

04072511 wrote: »

The problem is I leave Melbourne in 2 weeks to do farm work and to travel and wont be back until later in the year so I will pretty much have to do everything on my own.

I'm no David Gillick or anything, at the moment I'm only looking for something light to start off (no point doing heavy training when travelling).

:rolleyes: Your posts are very frustrating, they are just a litany of excuses for you not doing anything. Why do you keep asking for training advice if you are not prepared to do the training?

Pisco Sour · 21-06-2011 12:01pm

menoscemo wrote: »

:rolleyes: Your posts are very frustrating, they are just a litany of excuses for you not doing anything. Why do you keep asking for training advice if you are not prepared to do the training?

I thought I mentioned already that I have planned to go backpacking. I'm going to be travelling through the back @rse of Western Australia and Northern Territory, while on a tour bus with 23 other people for 5 weeks. If you can suggest how to fit in a full time 400m training schedule in, especially considering the lack of facilities in the wilderness of the Kimberleys then I'm all ears! :rolleyes:

The track season goes from October to March. I want to get a start on getting ready for it by doing some light work to begin with and then increase it closer to the track season.

Have you anything constructive to add about 400m training? Or any information on where I can find an aths track in the Bungle Bungle region of the Kimberleys?

EDIT: I certainly want to train when travelling, but have to be realistic, 4-5 days a week instensive workouts is not going to happen when on the move all day every day, and anybody who thinks otherwise is suffering from delusion.

Pisco Sour · 21-06-2011 12:05pm

Goofy wrote: »

Core is very important for sprinting. You should try and do a quick core session most days (5-10 mins). I do mine after my warm down. (if i can still do a sit up at that stage )

What sort of stuff do you do for this?

Gandalph · 21-06-2011 12:06pm

Ah yeh you wouldnt be on the track much during winter anyway, most of the stuff is done on grass. Just stay off hard surface for the time being.

I found the fartlek - interval training amazing to increase the stamina, the whole speed work is done in summer 1-2 months prior to competition roughly. 1 thing that vital is that you do your drills correct, use these drills on the hills/ harness and you will be flying in no time. Dont spend too much time going for long runs, this is more conditioning, but they dont hurt every now and then.

Doing the plyometrics/ running around is gonna strengthen up the calves, dont spend too much time doing sole calve exercises.

In my opinion its all about what you eat which makes the most improvement. But yeh for winter just load on the heavy training, dont be afraid of hurting the next day, and if you think you are then stretch before bed, makes the hurt alot less painfull.

Pisco Sour · 21-06-2011 1:00pm

Just off the phone with one of the coaches from my club and he said that they are currently doing early season work to prepare for the track season, every tuesday and thursday evening down by The Tan or The MCG. I still have 2 weeks left in Melbourne so may as well make use of that while I'm here.

My coach said while travelling, if I can get 3 sessions a week in I'm doing good. He said that if on a given day I can get one in then do it, but not to be stressing about it and not to worry if I cant fit a session in on a particular day. Basically the days we may arrive into some town at 4pm and dinner isn't until 6pm and I have free time then he said I can easily fit in a good 45 minute session on those days. But when in the wilderness and camping I'm not to worry. He said the amount of trekking I'll be doing in Western Australia will provide a decent amount of endurance, and when hiking it can even help with strength. He said its obviously not 400m specific work, but that I should think of it as a form of cross training.

I did a fair lot of hiking when in South America and when I came to Melbourne after all that travelling I didn't feel out of shape.

He then tried to talk me into doing a decathlon with him later in the year.

Gandalph · 21-06-2011 1:45pm

04072511 wrote: »

He then tried to talk me into doing a decathlon with him later in the year.

Doing a decathlon with a group of friends is possibly the most fun in the world, give it a go haha

Pisco Sour · 21-06-2011 2:46pm

Gandalph wrote: »

Doing a decathlon with a group of friends is possibly the most fun in the world, give it a go haha

I can't high jump (literally), have never even held a pole vault in my hands, and am scared sh1tless of the size of them men's high hurdles! Any chance I can make up the lost points in the other 7 events eh?

Brianderunner · 21-06-2011 3:36pm

I would recommend the following for the off season 400m training, well this is what i did under the guidance of the sprints coach in trinity.

-Plyometrics (high knees, heel flicks, bounding, alternate leg skips, pitter patter, etc.
-Strength work in the gym.
-6-8 x 150m repeats at about 95%, walkback recovery
-5-6 x 250m repeats at about 90%, walkback recovery

Pisco Sour · 22-06-2011 12:58am

Brianderunner wrote: »

I would recommend the following for the off season 400m training, well this is what i did under the guidance of the sprints coach in trinity.

-Plyometrics (high knees, heel flicks, bounding, alternate leg skips, pitter patter, etc.
-Strength work in the gym.
-6-8 x 150m repeats at about 95%, walkback recovery
-5-6 x 250m repeats at about 90%, walkback recovery

Cheers for that.

Will have to do a bit of research into what all that terminology means.

Going to do a strength endurance session today at lunch time with some step-running. I work very close to the Shrine of Rememberence (stunning view of Melbourne skyline from there) which provides plenty of steps for a decent session.

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200709/r176625_672947.jpg

Pisco Sour · 22-06-2011 11:12am

Did a strength endurance session today during lunch. 5 minute jog to the Shrine of Rememberence to warm up. Stretches. Then 6x60 steps up the Shrine of Rememberence, with 3-4 minutes rest in between (Although there is a 20 metre run about half way up the steps which breaks it up a small bit). Then stretches, and then 5 minute cool down run back to the office.

The steps were only about 6 inches in height so was unsure on whether to run up every second step or every step. The first 2 reps I ran up every second step, and then after than I changed to running up every step, which felt like I was doing more work.

So I'm wondering for step-running for strength endurance how high should the steps be? Were the steps I was running up big enough to get proper strength benefits?

Tomorrow I'm going to the club session and will do whatever the coach tells me to do. I'll update my training on my log from now on, but this thread is good for when I need to ask questions as it is more likely those questions will be seen here than in my log (as there are so many logs, it takes literally 1 hour after you post sometimes and your log has already disappeared off the first page).

Every post here (with the exception of 1) has been extremely helpful. Thanks for all the advice, and keep it coming.

shels4ever · 22-06-2011 12:17pm

04072511 wrote: »

Did a strength endurance session today during lunch. 5 minute jog to the Shrine of Rememberence to warm up. Stretches. Then 6x60 steps up the Shrine of Rememberence, with 3-4 minutes rest in between (Although there is a 20 metre run about half way up the steps which breaks it up a small bit). Then stretches, and then 5 minute cool down run back to the office.

The steps were only about 6 inches in height so was unsure on whether to run up every second step or every step. The first 2 reps I ran up every second step, and then after than I changed to running up every step, which felt like I was doing more work.

So I'm wondering for step-running for strength endurance how high should the steps be? Were the steps I was running up big enough to get proper strength benefits?

Tomorrow I'm going to the club session and will do whatever the coach tells me to do. I'll update my training on my log from now on, but this thread is good for when I need to ask questions as it is more likely those questions will be seen here than in my log (as there are so many logs, it takes literally 1 hour after you post sometimes and your log has already disappeared off the first page).

Every post here (with the exception of 1) has been extremely helpful. Thanks for all the advice, and keep it coming.

So will see you in the graded leagues next summer in the 400/800?

Pisco Sour · 22-06-2011 12:27pm

shels4ever wrote: »

So will see you in the graded leagues next summer in the 400/800?

I'll be in Australia all next year but will be coming home for a holiday for the Olympics (for which I am ticketless currently) so I reckon I could fit a cheeky race in

Brianderunner · 22-06-2011 12:43pm

04072511 wrote: »

I'll be in Australia all next year but will be coming home for a holiday for the Olympics (for which I am ticketless currently) so I reckon I could fit a cheeky race in

You can take me on over 400m next summer in London during the olympics. We'll find an open track meet somewhere. Should be a classic!

Pisco Sour · 22-06-2011 12:46pm

Brianderunner wrote: »

You can take me on over 400m next summer in London during the olympics. We'll find an open track meet somewhere. Should be a classic!

You're a 55 second man over the quarter mile. You should have no bother disposing of me with a little bit to spare.

45 metres on the otherhand

dna_leri · 22-06-2011 2:52pm

Brianderunner wrote: »

I would recommend the following for the off season 400m training, well this is what i did under the guidance of the sprints coach in trinity.

-Plyometrics (high knees, heel flicks, bounding, alternate leg skips, pitter patter, etc.
-Strength work in the gym.
-6-8 x 150m repeats at about 95%, walkback recovery
-5-6 x 250m repeats at about 90%, walkback recovery

I would also recommend that you do speed work all year round and certainly if you are 4 months from your racing season.

Ecoli's comments on the middle distance thread are equally valid here (if not more so).

An athlete should never be too far from speed and should keep elements of this in their training year round.

Read this for an insight into the different 400m training methods.
Lots of other good articles over on elitetrack.com too.

dna_leri · 22-06-2011 3:11pm

Also meant to say: Drills, drills and more drills - especially for a beginner.

Best done with a coach who will correct your form but as always there is an internet version. See this video with Clyde Hart.

Loads of other stuff on speedendurance.com too, like this answer to the question about tempo workouts and this one about balancng speed and endurance.

Pisco Sour · 23-06-2011 2:59pm

dna_leri wrote: »

Also meant to say: Drills, drills and more drills - especially for a beginner.

Best done with a coach who will correct your form but as always there is an internet version. See this video with Clyde Hart.

Loads of other stuff on speedendurance.com too, like this answer to the question about tempo workouts and this one about balancng speed and endurance.

Thanks a mill for all that. This thread is becoming a great reference point for 400m training. Thanks to all who have contributed.

It seems like the best areas to focus on at this moment would be Tempo endurance, Strength endurance and Speed endurance. By training 3 times a week, doing one of those each day could be the way to go, while doing heel rises to strengthen the calves, on a more regular basis.

At the training session this evening though the coach said to not worry about speed at the moment and the main focus is on strength and endurance. He said wait until August for the more speed based drills, and not to worry about technique at the moment.

Pisco Sour · 24-09-2011 1:47pm

GET IN! 61.80 seconds today in the first race of the season.:) Getting closer...

Woddle · 24-09-2011 1:55pm

Good stuff man, I'd love to get under 60 aswell, hopefully next season.

Pisco Sour · 17-12-2011 9:17am

The sub 60 second 400m has been achieved!!

Ran the lead off leg of the 4x400m relay and the watch was stopped 5 metres early at 58.5 (he stopped the watch early and only realised afterwards that he got it wrong), so my time would be no slower than 59.3, and even allowing for electronic timing it would still be easily under 60

Frustrating not to have an official time, as it was a relay, but it certainly felt like a 59 second run. Goals modified for the new year. Sub 59 the next target.

Sure it's a slightly rough time, but definetely well under 60!

Sub 60 seconds 400m - Advice for the off season needed

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