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18-06-2019, 10:52   #151
TSQ
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Apartment living in Ireland

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Originally Posted by LirW View Post
And they can't be entirely blamed for thinking that way. My husband and I would "millennials", so are his peers.
He grew up in a really nice part on the North side, in a Semi-D with big garden. All of his peers did too. They all went to good schools in good postcodes and went on to do college degrees and the vast majority is better educated than their parents and work very hard. Yet all par one couple (he went to a private school) cannot even remotely afford the standard of living their parents had. And still, this mindset of Semi-D, SUV, sprogs and golden lab is so engrained in them that it indeed is a rude awakening to see that realistically they will never live like their own parents.

Now I come from Europe, I grew up in rented apartments in some areas, single parent family and we were poor. When I moved to Ireland most people struggled to wrap their head around how this is sustainable/doable. I regularly have an argument with my in-laws because they genuinely think you cannot raise children in an apartment setting.
Apartment living has always been branded as living for the poor, inferior, students and just something you do for a bit until you can buy your own gaff. And this mindset persists.
We now live in a remote location and plan to move in the next 2-3 years because we don't particularly like it but that's what we could afford. And I'd totally live in a decent apartment somewhere more built up with the children. But that simply doesn't exist, which is a shame because it is hugely efficient housing and can be done so well.
One of the problems with apt living in Ireland is you can’t depend on the weather in the summer holidays, plus IRISH parents will no longer let kids play on the street. So kids are stuck indoors unless you have a garden. Have seen young kids playing football in public squares right in the centre of Seville with no obvious supervision. Wouldn’t happen here.
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18-06-2019, 10:52   #152
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Ireland has chronic dwelling under occupancy because of legal delays?
No, it's because when people have finished rearing their family they stay in a family size home instead of downsizing.

The reasons for this are many. They want to preserve their ability to leave an inheritance, it's a very solid asset that they can dispose of should a financial emergency arise, they've lived there their while lives and enjoy the community and they want to keep rooms so that they can have their entire family stay when they come back to visit.

Underoccupancy would be more of a reality in rural areas, where children leave the family home earlier in order to go to university, and do not return.
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18-06-2019, 11:46   #153
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No, it's because when people have finished rearing their family they stay in a family size home instead of downsizing.

The reasons for this are many. They want to preserve their ability to leave an inheritance, it's a very solid asset that they can dispose of should a financial emergency arise, they've lived there their while lives and enjoy the community and they want to keep rooms so that they can have their entire family stay when they come back to visit.

Underoccupancy would be more of a reality in rural areas, where children leave the family home earlier in order to go to university, and do not return.
what about the practical difficulties in downsizing? Ireland has an extremely difficult conveyancing system that makes it very difficult to move home when at an advanced age unless there is a lot of cash available to the person moving.
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18-06-2019, 12:06   #154
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Big houses in rural areas are not an issue in relation to lack of housing. It's urban areas that suffer from lack of accommodation and that won't be solved by rural pensioners downsizing. They might have trouble maintaining and heating their properties but there are not buyers queuing for their houses.
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18-06-2019, 12:20   #155
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I am not loaded. I worked in 5, yes 5 different countries to afford my house. I've never driven anything more expensive than a polo/micra.

What I did not do was bring kids I could not afford into the world and expect the taxpayer to fund my lifestyle, preferably in the area I grew up in close to mammy.

I actually want a social welfare system, a good health and education system and am satisfied to pay taxes for that. But we're not getting that because we have to fund people's irresponsibility. I have the way Ireland treated women historically- but now there is full contraception available and abortion. Yet over and over we see that a huge cohort of the people demanding social housing have never worked and had kids (And I mean the fathers too) that they just assumed the state would raise.

Meanwhile we can't have scandi style day care or cheap student accommodation because we fund people who sleep in garda stations.
Yeah, I agree with all of that.

I'm simply saying that it's not just those two options.

1) Social housing
2) Owner occupied, earned by working across x number of countries.


Where is option
3) A basic Functional rental sector. With a range of accommodation ranging across size and affordability.


Because what's happening at the moment is that our rental sector is collapsing. Units available are at a historic low, landlords are pouring out of the market due to the penalties and tax model.

Is this something we want? As a society? To shrink our rental sector to zilch?
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18-06-2019, 12:26   #156
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Originally Posted by meeeeh View Post
Big houses in rural areas are not an issue in relation to lack of housing. It's urban areas that suffer from lack of accommodation and that won't be solved by rural pensioners downsizing. They might have trouble maintaining and heating their properties but there are not buyers queuing for their houses.
There is another thread on here right now with somebody considering moving into what has become a halting site because there are zero rental options and the house prices have gone past their reach. And they are not in a urban setting.
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18-06-2019, 12:32   #157
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There is another thread on here right now with somebody considering moving into what has become a halting site because there are zero rental options and the house prices have gone past their reach. And they are not in a urban setting.
I think I know the thread you are talking about and as far as I know they are also not able to get mortgage. The issue of funds will remain even if supply improves.
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18-06-2019, 12:37   #158
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Pushing elderly people "to the country" is an absolutely terrible idea! All it would do is cause serious isolation issues and inability to cope as people start to lose the ability to drive.

It's grand when you're 65, 70 but when you hit being properly old being in a remote area has serious downsides.

There's a lot of scope though for regeneration of villages and towns by encouraging people to move into those kinds of urban spaces. It means proper planning though and making them really attractive.

We aren't really planning at all for when this generation gets old as we're not going to have as many people to look after us. We should be creating the kinds of communities we can retain independence in well into our 90s and beyond if we're lucky enough to get there.
It works both ways. Nearly 80 here and refusing to even consider moving from a very remote place where I am happy and independent to a town or any retirement facility where I would be unhappy/
.
Old folk are individuals and uprooting is traumatic if they are ok where they are. The last one who died out here was 104 years old

Last edited by Graces7; 18-06-2019 at 13:30.
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18-06-2019, 12:54   #159
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Originally Posted by Claw Hammer View Post
what about the practical difficulties in downsizing? Ireland has an extremely difficult conveyancing system that makes it very difficult to move home when at an advanced age unless there is a lot of cash available to the person moving.
It's not that hard to sell a house from a transactional standpoint.

Older Irish people don't downside because they don't want to downsize. Irish people will start living downstairs when they can no longer climb stairs rather than sell. It's a cultural thing.

Last edited by MrMusician18; 18-06-2019 at 13:03.
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18-06-2019, 13:24   #160
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Originally Posted by pwurple View Post
landlords are pouring out of the market due to the penalties and tax model
Is Ireland's approach to taxation of rental income different qualitatively from how it is treated in other countries with a functioning rental sector?
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18-06-2019, 13:32   #161
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Many people here are forgetting that a house isn't just a building to the residents/owners.

To many it's their "home", full of memories, where their child spoke for the first time etc. a place where they have felt safe for most of their lives.

It's also a place they have made "their own", decorated the way they like, with furniture they like etc., that may not be able to be replicated in a smaller property.


But some people aren't sentimental in that case;

The spare rooms aren't always "shrines", the widowed parent who moves into the downstairs room is sometimes freeing up the master bedroom for the married offspring when they visit, usually occasionally for celebrations, but sometimes, perhaps a decade or so later, for them to look after their elderly parent for a while instead of putting them into a nursing home.

Given the significant legal and tax and other costs involved in moving, it isn't surprising that people choose to remain in their homes, even when sometimes that home is a little too small and at other times it's a bit too big.
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18-06-2019, 16:17   #162
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Originally Posted by MrMusician18 View Post
It's not that hard to sell a house from a transactional standpoint.

Older Irish people don't downside because they don't want to downsize. Irish people will start living downstairs when they can no longer climb stairs rather than sell. It's a cultural thing.
Selling a house is less than half of the problem. A new house has to be acquired in its place. That is where the biggest issues lie. It is difficult enough for young folk trying to trade up, it is even harder trying to trade down. AS for people not wanting to, the majority of purchasers in an apartment development in Mount Merrion were downsizers from the local area. Mount Merrion is an area with a mature population where houses are valuable and most have very big gardens. When it is feasible for people to downsize within their own area people will do it.
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18-06-2019, 16:53   #163
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Is Ireland's approach to taxation of rental income different qualitatively from how it is treated in other countries with a functioning rental sector?
Short answer is Absolutely Yes.

In the netherlands, where a larger proportion of the population rent, and many for their lifetime, not at huge cost... all sorts of units available to rent, including boathouses etc. The mortgage is taken into account as an expense. You calculate the value of the property (the WOZ value, value of property minus mortgage) and are taxed on that. Sounds reasonable doesn't it!

Also in netherlands, landlords have slightly stronger rights than here, which makes the risk lower. The right to terminate a temporary lease (the cooling off period) without giving a reason for example.


Portugal, tax on rental income of 28%

Spain it's 24% of rental income.

Germany, the rate is around 16%.

I'll not google the whole lot for you.
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18-06-2019, 18:00   #164
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Originally Posted by pwurple View Post
In the netherlands, where a larger proportion of the population rent, and many for their lifetime, not at huge cost... all sorts of units available to rent, including boathouses etc. The mortgage is taken into account as an expense. You calculate the value of the property (the WOZ value, value of property minus mortgage) and are taxed on that. Sounds reasonable doesn't it!
OK, according to my maths it seems like Irish-Dutch taxes work out about the same if you're leveraged to the hilt (75% mortgage @ 5%) but as you pay off the principal things get progressively worse until you're eventually paying three times as much tax in Ireland as in Netherlands. That's excluding non-interest allowable expenses. Including them would reduce the Irish tax bill so that maximum leverage gives a lower-than-Dutch tax take, but unleveraged landlords will still be much worse off.
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18-06-2019, 18:16   #165
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Originally Posted by brightspark View Post
Many people here are forgetting that a house isn't just a building to the residents/owners.

To many it's their "home", full of memories, where their child spoke for the first time etc. a place where they have felt safe for most of their lives.

It's also a place they have made "their own", decorated the way they like, with furniture they like etc., that may not be able to be replicated in a smaller property.


But some people aren't sentimental in that case;

The spare rooms aren't always "shrines", the widowed parent who moves into the downstairs room is sometimes freeing up the master bedroom for the married offspring when they visit, usually occasionally for celebrations, but sometimes, perhaps a decade or so later, for them to look after their elderly parent for a while instead of putting them into a nursing home.

Given the significant legal and tax and other costs involved in moving, it isn't surprising that people choose to remain in their homes, even when sometimes that home is a little too small and at other times it's a bit too big.
excellent appraisal. thank you/I have rented several houses in my years in Ireland and almost all have been homes of eg parents now gone that are still
precious to the family.

they rent them out to avoid losing them by selling. Three were first time lets after bereavements. I learned a lot re Irish family life from them and all you say is so right
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