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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Ahh and i thought our caring government were out to save us from the evils of alcohol......just the competition to their friends in the vitners association more like

    Irish Ferries sometimes have very good offers to France. Small transporter, 2 people, load that thing up to the rafters, booze for a year. And duty free restrictions don't apply, because its all duty paid, so don't let customs bully you. Could also combine it with a holiday...

    Edit:
    I see booze cruises becoming a thing for small operators.




  • I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.
    bear1 wrote: »
    Are you an for real?
    I haven't denied it but you stated hundreds are killed on the roads each year due to drink driving and yet the "source" you quoted said since records began in 1959 and then you took the average.


    Ah, casting aspersions on the validity of sources, even the state-funded Health Research Board which is held in high regard by medical professions. How very Brexiteresque.

    bear1 wrote: »
    A&e and is Clogged up, are you saying that the only people in a&e are people who have been drinking?


    Yes, yes, yes - of course that is the level of abject stupidity in this discussion (you could have actually read the source where the percentage of drink-related admissions is discussed but no, an obtuse conclusion without reading the evidence is much better)

    bear1 wrote: »
    quoting the rsa over a 50 year period is idiotic.

    I apologise for not selectively editing the facts to choose the statistics that suit you.

    bear1 wrote: »
    How much does drinking cost the state compared to smoking? Drug use? What fatalities on the roads can be attributed to drug use?


    This is fúcking retarded now. The figures already given on the cost of alcohol abuse to the state -€3.7 billion - suddenly aren't good enough for you in their own right: they must now be compared with figures regarding other drugs (and you'd then come out with some bullshít about the validity of that source). So nothing should be done about alcohol abuse unless we get evidence that it's worse than heroin and the like. Oh please, give the pathetic post-truth games a rest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    It's the new tobacco in terms of deaths and general social trouble.

    24 cans for 24 quid is too cheap and a minimum pricing on that type of stuff is a good thing




  • This is fúcking retarded now. The figures already given on the cost of alcohol abuse to the state -€3.7 billion - suddenly aren't good enough for you in their own right

    Will you go away with that misleading gross figure. Take into account VAT and excise on drink along with the 1000 and 1000's of people employed directly or who a large portion of their income is due to drinking (and they pay tax on this money and spend it on things that generate VAT etc) and that figure will disappear.

    Nanny state nonsense, I really don't care what the gross cost of drink related bla bla is I like drinking and I want to be able to buy drink at a reasonable price, it's already not a reasonable price in Ireland compared to a lot of the rest of the world. If I can't go in and get 24 cans for 24 euro (though it should be even cheaper imo) I'll be sorcing my cans elsewhere. I already buy all my sprints with travelling so get them far cheaper than here (travelling for work usually too so the actual trips cost me nothing). Even better in that you get proper versions of things like gin which should be 47% but is watered down to 40% in the UK and Ireland only.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,647 ✭✭✭elefant


    RasTa wrote: »
    It's the new tobacco in terms of deaths and general social trouble.

    24 cans for 24 quid is too cheap and a minimum pricing on that type of stuff is a good thing

    You can buy a can of beer in Amsterdam for around 35c.

    The Netherlands has one of the lowest alcohol consumption rates in Europe.
    http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-discuss/expat-page/news/netherlands-one-lowest-rates-alcohol-consumption-europe

    I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that price is not the issue when it comes to the unhealthy Irish drinking culture.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Yeah but Irish people are generally thick so the only thing to do is raise the prices to drop the number of abuses like tobacco


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    People comparing the price of alcohol here with Spain or Germany are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Irish people cannot be trusted with cheap drink. It's an undeniable fact.
    Attend any Christmas party with a free bar and have a look around at the end of the night. Most people will be pissed out of their heads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,647 ✭✭✭elefant


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    People comparing the price of alcohol here with Spain or Germany are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Irish people cannot be trusted with cheap drink. It's an undeniable fact.
    Attend any Christmas party with a free bar and have a look around at the end of the night. Most people will be pissed out of their heads.

    Amazing.

    Do you think it's something hard-wired into every Irish person's brain?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    elefant wrote: »
    Amazing.

    Do you think it's something hard-wired into every Irish person's brain?

    Having traveled extensively on the Continent, I can tell you that the levels of public drunkenness one can witness on any given evening in a city or town center in Ireland simply don't exist elsewhere.
    We have an extremely unhealthy relationship with alcohol and something needs to be done about it.
    Most people on this thread are more concerned their Dutch Gold is going up by a few cents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,647 ✭✭✭elefant


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Having traveled extensively on the Continent, I can tell you that the levels of public drunkenness one can witness on any given evening in a city or town center in Ireland simply don't exist elsewhere.
    We have an extremely unhealthy relationship with alcohol and something needs to be done about it.
    Most people on this thread are more concerned their Dutch Gold is going up by a few cents.

    I'm sure many people commenting on this thread have travelled extensively. They don't need to be told Ireland has a serious issue when it comes to binge drinking.

    The point is that the price of alcohol has nothing to do with how much of it Irish people drink. Irish cultural attitudes towards alcohol are problematic, and raising the price of a can won't change that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭The flying mouse


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Having traveled extensively on the Continent, I can tell you that the levels of public drunkenness one can witness on any given evening in a city or town center in Ireland simply don't exist elsewhere.
    We have an extremely unhealthy relationship with alcohol and something needs to be done about it.
    Most people on this thread are more concerned their Dutch Gold is going up by a few cents.

    Yep that's true, excluding Britain, I to would travel widely in Europe & you just don't see the same drunkenness & violence you see on Irish city's & towns after bars/clubs close. Not saying they don't have problems but certainly not on the same scale here.

    but I still don't think this is the way to combat abuse of alcohol in this country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,808 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    bear1 wrote: »
    Are you an for real?
    I haven't denied it but you stated hundreds are killed on the roads each year due to drink driving and yet the "source" you quoted said since records began in 1959 and then you took the average.


    Ah, casting aspersions on the validity of sources, even the state-funded Health Research Board which is held in high regard by medical professions. How very Brexiteresque.





    Yes, yes, yes - of course that is the level of abject stupidity in this discussion (you could have actually read the source where the percentage of drink-related admissions is discussed but no, an obtuse conclusion without reading the evidence is much better)




    I apologise for not selectively editing the facts to choose the statistics that suit you.





    This is fúcking retarded now. The figures already given on the cost of alcohol abuse to the state -€3.7 billion - suddenly aren't good enough for you in their own right: they must now be compared with figures regarding other drugs (and you'd then come out with some bullshít about the validity of that source). So nothing should be done about alcohol abuse unless we get evidence that it's worse than heroin and the like. Oh please, give the pathetic post-truth games a rest.

    Christ you're posts are idiotic at best. Trump, right wing and now a brexiteer..
    You are quoting figures at a 50 year level, do you not see yourself that this is flawed?
    So according to you, the state has paid 3.7 billion in the 50 years prior to 2010 or after?
    No, we should let adults be adults and if they want a drink or 2 without being raped by the state then minimal pricing should not be enforced.
    I still fail to see how your outlandish claim that hundreds are killed on the roads every year due to alcohol holds any water? Is this utter bolloxology theory or are you still going to say that the RSA and HSE confirmed it when in fact they havent.
    Remove all drink related incidents in A&E and you think the crisis of the beds will go away? Will it fcuk, but when we have people like you who think the avergae joe should be screwed over left right and center because blah blah blah then it's no wonder people call this country a nanny state.
    What next? ban alcohol completely? Maybe imprison people who do?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Yep that's true, excluding Britain, I to would travel widely in Europe & you just don't see the same drunkenness & violence you see on Irish city's & towns after bars/clubs close. Not saying they don't have problems but certainly not on the same scale here.

    but I still don't think this is the way to combat abuse of alcohol in this country.

    And you touched on a very important point here. Bars and clubs. Since they won't be affected, this will not change. Therefore the law is useless.

    Not related to this post: Who's thick now and would that person say it to my face? You can then laugh on the other side of yours, come on now keyboard warrior.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    elefant wrote: »
    The point is that the price of alcohol has nothing to do with how much of it Irish people drink. Irish cultural attitudes towards alcohol are problematic, and raising the price of a can won't change that.

    And you know that because......

    If alcohol were free or at the cheap levels it is elsewhere Irish people would be in a near constant state of drunkenness
    It's not a coincidence that consumption dropped dramatically during the recession. Less disposable income equals less consumption. As sure as night follows day, they are on the rise again as the economy improves.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    And you know that because......

    If alcohol were free or at the cheap levels it is elsewhere Irish people would be in a near constant state of drunkenness
    It's not a coincidence that consumption dropped dramatically during the recession. Less disposable income equals less consumption. As sure as night follows day, they are on the rise again as the economy improves.

    Again, not applicable to clubs and bars, so law useless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Having traveled extensively on the Continent, I can tell you that the levels of public drunkenness one can witness on any given evening in a city or town center in Ireland simply don't exist elsewhere.
    We have an extremely unhealthy relationship with alcohol and something needs to be done about it.
    Most people on this thread are more concerned their Dutch Gold is going up by a few cents.

    Where does this unhealthy relationship start? In childhood when children are indirectly taught how special and amazing alcohol is by restricting it so severely and making it such a right of passage to turn 18 and have it legally for the first time. Not to mention the usual irish "sticking it to the man" of underage drinking that we are all also complicit in by once again making it such a special thing in the minds of our children.

    Hiding it behind a curtain and making even more of a fuss by adding MUP isnt going to solve any of these issues. Its definitely not going to solve the real problem of people with drinking problems accessing cheap alcohol cus they are gonna buy it no matter what the cost is cus they have a drinking problem, do drug addicts care what the price of drugs are?

    This law is irrefutably a get out of jail free pass to the vintners who have refused to adapt their business models and pricing. The only piece of evidence you need to prove this is they all support it cus its not gonna affect their pricing by one bit and will hopefully get more people back into the pubs.

    Consumption per person has gone down year over year since 2006 a fact proven by OECD figures. Along with that so has pricing which proves the price of alcohol has zero influence on consumption rates. There is zerto evidence saying it does apart from one single report from a canadian province based on the discredited Sheffield model.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    And you know that because......

    If alcohol were free or at the cheap levels it is elsewhere Irish people would be in a near constant state of drunkenness
    It's not a coincidence that consumption dropped dramatically during the recession. Less disposable income equals less consumption. As sure as night follows day, they are on the rise again as the economy improves.

    People had less disposable income yet as we are constantly told pricing is too low right now as well so the less disposable income argument becomes null and void when you consider at the same time that prices are so low consumption has being going down year of year since 2006.

    There are zero facts supporting MUP having any evidence on consumption beyond nanny state nimbyists wanting to pretend likew their doing something while in reality all they are doing is giving the rip off merchant Vintners exactly what they want


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭The flying mouse


    bear1 wrote: »

    Christ you're posts are idiotic at best. Trump, right wing and now a brexiteer..
    You are quoting figures at a 50 year level, do you not see yourself that this is flawed?
    So according to you, the state has paid 3.7 billion in the 50 years prior to 2010 or after?
    No, we should let adults be adults and if they want a drink or 2 without being raped by the state then minimal pricing should not be enforced.
    I still fail to see how your outlandish claim that hundreds are killed on the roads every year due to alcohol holds any water? Is this utter bolloxology theory or are you still going to say that the RSA and HSE confirmed it when in fact they havent.
    Remove all drink related incidents in A&E and you think the crisis of the beds will go away? Will it fcuk, but when we have people like you who think the avergae joe should be screwed over left right and center because blah blah blah then it's no wonder people call this country a nanny state.
    What next? ban alcohol completely? Maybe imprison people who do?



    Bear1 that figure 3.7billon was just for one year @ 2007, This is the latest figures I can find...its all here if you care to read.

    The estimated cost of alcohol harm of €2.35 billion in 2013 is a significant reduction on the figure of €3.7 billion estimated for 2007 in a comprehensive report published in 2010..A 30% reduction in alcohol-related harm would save taxpayers an estimated €1 billion a year, according to the Chief Medical Officer of Ireland -



    . - See more at: http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/alcohol-and-costs/#sthash.c8HBTdV2.dpuf




  • MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    People comparing the price of alcohol here with Spain or Germany are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Irish people cannot be trusted with cheap drink. It's an undeniable fact.
    Attend any Christmas party with a free bar and have a look around at the end of the night. Most people will be pissed out of their heads.

    So what, if I want to get hammered that's my business.
    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    And you know that because......

    If alcohol were free or at the cheap levels it is elsewhere Irish people would be in a near constant state of drunkenness
    It's not a coincidence that consumption dropped dramatically during the recession. Less disposable income equals less consumption. As sure as night follows day, they are on the rise again as the economy improves.

    Again its not your concern, let people live the way they want if they are paying for it out of their own money (not the dole) they should be able to drink as they want and not be loaded with nanny state nonsense pricing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,808 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    bear1 wrote: »



    Bear1 that figure 3.7billon was just for one year @ 2007, This is the latest figures I can find...its all here if you care to read.

    The estimated cost of alcohol harm of €2.35 billion in 2013 is a significant reduction on the figure of €3.7 billion estimated for 2007 in a comprehensive report published in 2010..A 30% reduction in alcohol-related harm would save taxpayers an estimated €1 billion a year, according to the Chief Medical Officer of Ireland -



    . - See more at: http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/alcohol-and-costs/#sthash.c8HBTdV2.dpuf

    Thanks.
    Read through that although it is a high figure I still can't see how having a minimum price on alcohol is going to do to change that.
    Dr. Fuzz mentioned that the law will not cover bars and clubs... so what's the point?
    Surely you are more likely to end up in hospital after a night out drinking then if you are having a quiet night in?
    It would be interesting to see the figures for 2016 as if we take the 2007 and 2013 amounts then it's already looking better with 1.4ish billion saved.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    Again, not applicable to clubs and bars, so law useless.

    Not useless at all.
    Most alcohol is sold through the off-trade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Irish people cannot be trusted with cheap drink. It's an undeniable fact.

    Explain our dropping consumption figures versus cheaper alcohol prices please then?

    All you do is make grand sweeping statements but never provide evidence or facts to back up any of it, much like the nanny state politicians ignoring the facts to back up their vintners lobbyist friends


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    So what, if I want to get hammered that's my business.

    And no one will stop you.

    You will however need to make an increased contribution to the State to offset the cost to society of you getting regularly hammered.

    Sounds fair to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Not useless at all.
    Most alcohol is sold through the off-trade.

    Ahhh so you admit finally that this is an attempt to help unfairly assist the Vintners in getting punters back in their doors?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    Brings the whole water charge thing into light.

    Just because a very small few can't handle their drink shouldn't mean it ruins it for the rest of us.

    Up north we go.....

    Thats exactly whats going to happen. People will just chip in together, rent a van and drive up north.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Explain our dropping consumption figures versus cheaper alcohol prices please then?

    All you do is make grand sweeping statements but never provide evidence or facts to back up any of it, much like the nanny state politicians ignoring the facts to back up their vintners lobbyist friends

    Already explained if you actually read my posts properly. Less disposable income.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Alcohol in Ireland is one of the most expensive in the EU, making it more expensive will only make the problem worse if you compare the lack of drink problems in countries where drink is a fraction of the cost of here.

    I can't see how a price hike would make things better but conversely I honestly don't see how they will make things worse?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,808 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    People comparing the price of alcohol here with Spain or Germany are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Irish people cannot be trusted with cheap drink. It's an undeniable fact.
    Attend any Christmas party with a free bar and have a look around at the end of the night. Most people will be pissed out of their heads.

    Hmm, I'm in Warsaw now where a can costs about 50 cents.
    I'm not tempted to get bollock drunk... I just rubbished your fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    And no one will stop you.

    You will however need to make an increased contribution to the State to offset the cost to society of you getting regularly hammered.

    Sounds fair to me.

    What costs do my getting drunk in my own home inflict on the state? list them in order with accurate fact based cost estimates please


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,808 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    And no one will stop you.

    You will however need to make an increased contribution to the State to offset the cost to society of you getting regularly hammered.

    Sounds fair to me.

    What am I costing the state if I'm sitting in my house getting drunk?


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