What Is the real origin of the surname Miskimmins

owenc · 10-06-2011 8:59pm

barbarax wrote: »

sorry Owen it wasn't familysearch it was emerald ancestors:o

oh i see well i needin bother checkin that now! :mad: I never thought of putting that in at the time! Are you still a member what does it say.

owenc · 11-06-2011 1:13pm

Just been looking at some of the surname sites and it seems that the k was used instead of C back then as they just wrote it as it just as it sounded so miskimmings could be miscummings or something like that and maybe thats why we are finding the "k" being invovled in the records.... for example my ancestor was writtin as "kymin" in the muster roll that could've been Cumin which is seen along the borders area of england/scotland, a "y" was also used to replace the "u" for some odd reason for example "keeyming" would've been Cuming etc... I think that is very odd but whatever! That mean that my ancestors were cummings after all...

dubhthach · 12-06-2011 7:24pm

owenc wrote: »

Just been looking at some of the surname sites and it seems that the k was used instead of C back then as they just wrote it as it just as it sounded so miskimmings could be miscummings or something like that and maybe thats why we are finding the "k" being invovled in the records.... for example my ancestor was writtin as "kymin" in the muster roll that could've been Cumin which is seen along the borders area of england/scotland, a "y" was also used to replace the "u" for some odd reason for example "keeyming" would've been Cuming etc... I think that is very odd but whatever! That mean that my ancestors were cummings after all...

you have to remember that at this stage english wasn't that standardised a language. If anything the publishing of the "King James bible" probably has the most stablising affect on english spelling.

You also have to remember that there have been "sound-shifts" for both vowels and consonants. English underwent a major "vowel shift" in medeival period. This affect stuff like long vowels especially. Before then english ee/oo were pronunced like Irish é (ay) and ó (ow). they shifted to current ee sound (equivalent to irish í) and oo (equivalent to irish ú).

Dutch in comparison maintained long vowels sound like in Irish. Once I figured out that "ee" = é and aa=á it suddenly became lot easier to pronunce Dutch placenames for example.

English C can be ambiguous either pronunced as a K (hard-c) or like a s (due to French influence no doubt). Compare Cell and Car.

owenc · 15-06-2011 11:58pm

Baxtar was just reading some of the Scottish ancestry sites and there's mentions on skimmings etc I'n Wigtownshire etc I wonder if that's got to do with Miskimmins hmmm it also says that skimming means cumming In Scotland so it seems the too names are intertwined! It look like this annoying miskimmin thing has been happening In Scotland too and not northern Ireland only and it deems that it originated In Scotland and not ni!

barbarax · 16-06-2011 7:31pm

owenc wrote: »

Baxtar was just reading some of the Scottish ancestry sites and there's mentions on skimmings etc I'n Wigtownshire etc I wonder if that's got to do with Miskimmins hmmm it also says that skimming means cumming In Scotland so it seems the too names are intertwined! It look like this annoying miskimmin thing has been happening In Scotland too and not northern Ireland only and it deems that it originated In Scotland and not ni!

Owen you are just going to have to face it, really you are a Miskimmin!!!!! yes it would seem so. Was on a site the other night found a skimmin in 1666 in England???

owenc · 16-06-2011 8:09pm

Lol it's not me it's my family they have this stupid opinion that the spelling never changed and they ate denying that thus ever happened they also denying that they were church of Ireland... Yes I'm not surprised loll the Scottish version developed off the English one lol.. Cummings is a French name and it was brought to England first and then scotland so if anything we would be English lol... But I also thing that your going to have to face that your a Cummings swell lol because you won't find miskimmins in Scotland...

dubhthach · 16-06-2011 8:22pm

owenc wrote: »

Lol it's not me it's my family they have this stupid opinion that the spelling never changed and they ate denying that thus ever happened they also denying that they were church of Ireland... Yes I'm not surprised loll the Scottish version developed off the English one lol.. Cummings is a French name and it was brought to England first and then scotland so if anything we would be English lol

Well no ye would be Franco-Breton :P

According to the following link alot Cummings in Ireland aren't of english origin but it's a case they adopted the name during angliscation. Of course I think that's specifically in case of Cummings in Munster and Leinster, could be quite different in the North (same can be seen with Smith)

http://berks.pa-roots.com/library/IrishAndScottishSurnames.html

According to brief search of 1901 census about 1/3 of Cummings are Church of Ireland (156), there are 113 who are Presbyterian, 103 are Catholic, 31 are Methodist

owenc · 16-06-2011 8:27pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well no ye would be Franco-Breton :P

According to the following link alot Cummings in Ireland aren't of english origin but it's a case they adopted the name during angliscation. Of course I think that's specifically in case of Cummings in Munster and Leinster, could be quite different in the North (same can be seen with Smith)

http://berks.pa-roots.com/library/IrishAndScottishSurnames.html

According to brief search of 1901 census about 1/3 of Cummings are Church of Ireland (156), there are 113 who are Presbyterian, 103 are Catholic, 31 are Methodist

Well i don't look one bit french i'll tell you that anyway! Yes that would be true i used smith as an example earlier, however some catholics actually are english due to conversions etc... you see those figures really strike me as odd how the heck can scottish descendants be church of ireland if they came from scotland wouldn't they not be presbyterian?? I keep finding loads of folk in church of ireland records when they have scottish names its getting very odd... and my family are originally church of ireland but i beleive theres something suspisious about that because they are written down as presbyterian in the census...

owenc · 16-06-2011 8:40pm

oh and barbarax this is for you: as you can see it says it came into england first..

This very interesting Scottish surname is probably Norman-Breton in origin. It was introduced initially into England, by the followers of William the Conqueror at or after the battle of Hastings in 1066. The derivation is from either a pre 7th century personal name, originally 'Cumine' or 'Comyn', and thought to derive from the Breton/Celtic element 'can', meaning 'bent, crooked', and a common element in such surnames as 'Campbell' and 'Cameron', or from the French town of Comines. In Scotland, the family founded by William Comyn (see below), grew to be one of the most powerful in the country. In so doing they held at one time the Earldoms of both Angus and Atholl, although they were not only to lose them, but by the 14th century it was recorded that 'this great house of four earls and thirty two knights was so utterly overthrown, that there is no memorial in the country save the orisons (?) of the monks of Deer (A monastery). Be that as it may the surname remained popular, and there are now a very wide range of spelling forms including Cumming, Cummings, (patronymic), Cuming, Cumine, Cummine, Camings, Kaman, Camin, Kaming, Kemmons (!), Keming, Kimmons, Kimmins, Kimmings, and no doubt many others. Recording examples include Simon Comyn of Coldingham, in 1483, Barabara Keminge, christened at St Margarets, Westminster, in January 1st 1579, and Johes Kemmin, the son of George and Annae, christened at St Martins in the Field, Westminster, on May 2nd 1641. The coat of arms has the blazon of a blue field charged with three golden wheatsheaves, banded in red. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of Willelmus Comyn (Chancellor of Scotland), which was dated 1133, in the records of Kelso Abbey, Scotland, during the reign of King David 1 of Scotland, 1124 - 1153. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax. Throughout the centuries, surnames in every country have continued to "develop" often leading to astonishing variants of the original spelling.

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/cumming#ixzz1PTBJofrY

dubhthach · 16-06-2011 9:22pm

owenc wrote: »

Well i don't look one bit french i'll tell you that anyway! Yes that would be true i used smith as an example earlier, however some catholics actually are english due to conversions etc...

Indeed well not even that some of them were always catholic as they arrived before the reformation. Of course most of big names among the "Old English" are actually Cambro-Norman (Welsh-Norman). With regards to people with "scottish names" been "Church of Ireland" you have to remember that the Penal Laws of the 18th century applied to both Catholics and Presbyterian. I wouldn't be surprised if many switch affiliation for economical reasons so as to keep hold of land, business etc. You also have to remember that up until 1869 the Church of Ireland was the "State Church" of Ireland. Even though its members only formed a minority in both parts of the island (always more Presbytrians then Anglicans up north)

Anyways some protestants are actually Irish :P For example there's a former UUP MP in the North who has surname Maginnis. This surname is obviously Irish but they were known to have converted so as to keep hold of land and title. Likewise "the O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) is CoI

owenc · 16-06-2011 9:47pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed well not even that some of them were always catholic as they arrived before the reformation. Of course most of big names among the "Old English" are actually Cambro-Norman (Welsh-Norman). With regards to people with "scottish names" been "Church of Ireland" you have to remember that the Penal Laws of the 18th century applied to both Catholics and Presbyterian. I wouldn't be surprised if many switch affiliation for economical reasons so as to keep hold of land, business etc. You also have to remember that up until 1869 the Church of Ireland was the "State Church" of Ireland. Even though its members only formed a minority in both parts of the island (always more Presbytrians then Anglicans up north)

Anyways some protestants are actually Irish :P For example there's a former UUP MP in the North who has surname Maginnis. This surname is obviously Irish but they were known to have converted so as to keep hold of land and title. Likewise "the O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) is CoI

Oh aye i never thought of that, hmm maybe thats why because i know my family were very into farming and religious as-well i think they lived next door to the church LOL. Maybe there were no presbyterian churches then either? I can't remember seeing one being formed locally until 1810! :eek: Yes i know that theres loads of them in my school, i love telling them that their ancestry is irish, they don't like it at all its great sickening them and the funny thing is the most bitter ones are always the ones with the irish descent!:pac::pac: Theres also loads of catholics who are planters aswell due to the ne temere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ne_Temere infact i'd estimate that at least 40% of catholics in northern ireland are protestant descent due to that rule, that is why you see a big rise in catholics out of nowhere in the 1970s in northern ireland.

owenc · 17-06-2011 3:58pm

Ok now I sincerely doubt Protestants would deliberately convert to catholism on their own free will!! And you Really haven't got a clue what your talking about, your from Donegal and you haven't really got any Protestant ancestry so you haven't got experience of this... but whatever... In my family it is a real mix between Presbyterian and catholism (my entire family not parental) but let's say before 1850 nearly all of them were presbyterians of some form but then after this, that new law came out and boom all these catholics come out of nowhere! I think its blatantly obvious that, that law caused this increase and it would be a bit ignorant to deny that! And is it just me or was this law brought out to try and sink the Presbyterian church? Because I certainly believe so! It's also obvious as-well that, thats the reason why the catholic church is increasing and also of note every single one of my ancestors who converted was FORCED to do so,they did not do so by choice ... so yea you can't talk when you have no experience of the matter! Oh and those figures don't look correct at all for a start it says that the C of I has decreased well actually as a matter of fact in my area or roundabouts there has been a major increase in the C of I aswell as the methodist church so you could say they were incorrect! Interestingly in the past three years the catholic church has started to go downhill rapidly here infact there is a shortage of priests locally i hear.. the local catholic schools are shrinking in population aswell! Infact they had to close one not to long ago and they are thinking of closing the other ones too! Its interesting too that after 1850 most of my ancestors who converted all converted around about the same dates! hmmm.. It doesn't matter anymore anyway because alot of catholics who had ancestors who converted are actually converting back to protestantism i had three different catholics in my family convert back to protestantism in my family alone in the last 20 years.. So it would be wise to say that the process is starting to reverse again.

Dun · 17-06-2011 4:48pm

Again, as I already pointed out, since you seem to have absolutely NO idea what Ne Temere actually is, despite pointing links, it is not forced conversion. Yikes. And it came from the Vatican, deep in the heart of Italy, where I doubt converting Presbyterians in Ireland even came across there mind. Even if that were the purpose of the law (which it was not), there was MUCH more forced conversion to Presbyterianism and Protestantism than there was to Catholicism on either the island of Ireland or Great Britain.

Also, you make a couple of statements that are false. Donegal was heavily planted in areas by people from Scotland, and many of those remain here, so to dismiss me just because of where I'm from is frankly ridiculous.

Regarding the CAIN figures, I think I'd rather believe the academics at the University of Ulster any day over your opinion, no offence intended, and they don't refer to your area, they refer to all of the six counties.

And lastly, I believe I DO have protestant ancestors on my mother's line, and unlike you, I do not intend to constantly criticise and demonise their faith if that's what they were. It'd add a nice blend in there in my opinion.

owenc · 17-06-2011 5:13pm

Stop defending the catholic church.. Your obviously being ignorant and it's obvious that the catholic church did this for world denomination! Why else would they make people convert! And yes I have been physically told that my ancestors were forced to convert so my point still stands!! And heavily planted my head there's very few Presbyterians In Donegal and even very few church of Ireland folk aswell and if abything the Presbyterians are living on the border.. A few Presbyterians here and there is not heavily planted come Here and you'll see what heavily planted is! And whatever about the figures I know mysel what way things have went here I don't nerd some figure telling me what is right and wrong the cof I has definsfely risen That is it! Oh and no there has not been more conversion I'n the Presbyterian church ministers do not care on the otherhand every mixed marriage ive heard of it's always the catholic church who are the ones making people convert! Dont make statements that are incorrect when you don't know what your talking about!

Dun · 17-06-2011 5:32pm

I'm not defending the Catholic church. I'm saying that your constant attack of it is unjustified, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and inexcusable.

Again, the Catholic church requires nobody to convert (and never has) from another Christian religion to marry another Catholic, no matter how many times you claim otherwise, it's a fact. And EVEN if they did (which they don't), people still have free will to choose to marry someone else. There was no such thing as long courtships and the like in the 1800s, and it's likely that most people getting married scarcely knew their spouse-to-be.

Also you say "mixed marriages". If it's a mixed marriage, then there's no conversion - that would mean it would be a purely Catholic marriage.

And again, it's hypocritical going after the Catholic church, when the penal laws were designed to force people to convert from Catholicism to (and to a much lesser degree and for a much lesser period of time, from Presybterianism) to Protestantism Church of Ireland.
Edit: There you go.

owenc · 17-06-2011 5:40pm

For frigg sake can you Naw see sunshine? I quote from wikipedia " The notable affect of the degree was the requirement for the non-catholic spouse to agree to raise his/her children as roman Catholics, I'n some cases it was also Expected for the spouse to convert to catholism" :rolleyes: now if that's not shellfish or an attempt at stealing other denominations then I don't know what is! Now what concern that is of them I don't know but that's plain shellfish! Excuse me I know about the penal laws but did you just say to me that they were forced to convert from Presbyterianism to "protestantism" lol the last time I checked the Anglican church considers itself a catholic church and the Presbyterian church a Christian church and also the last time I checked the presbyterian church was the only true Protestant church !! How ignorant are you? The more I see the more I laugh!!

owenc · 17-06-2011 5:46pm

Dun wrote: »

I'm not defending the Catholic church. I'm saying that your constant attack of it is unjustified, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and inexcusable.

Again, the Catholic church requires nobody to convert (and never has) from another Christian religion to marry another Catholic, no matter how many times you claim otherwise, it's a fact. And EVEN if they did (which they don't), people still have free will to choose to marry someone else. There was no such thing as long courtships and the like in the 1800s, and it's likely that most people getting married scarcely knew their spouse-to-be.

Also you say "mixed marriages". If it's a mixed marriage, then there's no conversion - that would mean it would be a purely Catholic marriage.

And again, it's hypocritical going after the Catholic church, when the penal laws were designed to force people to convert from Catholicism to Protestantism (and to a much lesser degree and for a much lesser period of time, from Presybterianism to Protestantism).

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Are presbyterians naw protestants? LOL the funny thing is the presbyterian church is the only true protestant church!

Dun · 17-06-2011 5:59pm

And again, as I said they had to AGREE to it, they did not have to DO it. It wasn't a legal requirement like the penal laws.

Let me make it clear, there is only reason one reason I posted here, and that's the end of my contribution, since the only argument you have is the one about "stealing", and is the only laughable aspect of your constant attack - the rest being absurd:

I'm not defending the Catholic church. I'm saying that your constant attack of it is unjustified, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and inexcusable.

owenc · 17-06-2011 6:09pm

Dun wrote: »

And again, as I said they had to AGREE to it, they did not have to DO it. It wasn't a legal requirement like the penal laws.

Let me make it clear, there is only reason one reason I posted here, and that's the end of my contribution, since the only argument you have is the one about "stealing", and is the only laughable aspect of your constant attack - the rest being absurd:

YES but they did not want to convert they were forced to! The church said they would not marry them if they did not convert! And they would probably convert because of love. :rolleyes: And no its not laughable i have a reason to be angry and i am very angry about this whole issue and how they have stolen several members of my family over the years! And yes they did steal them if it were not for this rule thy would not have converted! agg :mad::mad: I have nothing against the catholic church only this i can not stand them for this! Now i'm naw arguing way you again as i canny be bothered anymore i know my views and i will not change them for you, i will end this convo now! So do not reply!

P. Breathnach · 17-06-2011 6:52pm

What has this spat got to do with genealogy?

owenc · 17-06-2011 7:06pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What has this spat got to do with genealogy?

Ano wtf like it was him who started it tho everytime i mention that he comes in! :rolleyes:

Dun · 17-06-2011 7:11pm

Every thread this fella is in, it's just dig, dig at the Catholic church. I snapped and responded to the bigotry, for which I am sorry. The constant comments to which I replied had nothing to do with the thread or genealogy to begin with, so I started nothing.

owenc · 17-06-2011 7:24pm

Dun wrote: »

Every thread this fella is in, it's just dig, dig at the Catholic church. I snapped and responded to the bigotry, for which I am sorry. The constant comments to which I replied had nothing to do with the thread or genealogy to begin with, so I started nothing.

And so what keep your nose out of my political views.. seriously if you think i'm a bigot you've obviously never spoken to any hardcore unionists! (im naw being bigoted fer the first place)...... And anyway your 24 so you canny talk any sense anyway! You've never experienced anything in the unionist community anyway so stop trying to tell me the way things work. :mad: Now leave me alone and gimmi head peace! Your the one who keeps starting the rows anyway.. AND yes it did we were discussing irish names and protestants and then you came in and gave us all a headrest!... Ok Hi i'll have tay cya later HI ok derry wan!

owenc · 17-06-2011 7:29pm

Dun wrote: »

You're saying then too that Catholics became a hell of a lot more attractive for some reason in the 1970s then? Also, a 1.7% rise in Catholic population in the 1970s is hardly a big one.

THis is were the row is started! :mad:

Dun · 17-06-2011 7:36pm

owenc wrote: »

Theres also loads of catholics who are planters aswell due to the ne temere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ne_Temere infact i'd estimate that at least 40% of catholics in northern ireland are protestant descent due to that rule, that is why you see a big rise in catholics out of nowhere in the 1970s in northern ireland.

That's where it starts. The obvious nonsense concerning a non-existent "big rise", and falsities about a Catholic rule about an agreement that you can make and not even necessarily stick to when marrying someone from another Christian denomination; a rule that came into force in 1908. ALL of which has nothing to do with genealogy. Nor where the name came from.

[Edit:] I can't believe I'm getting sucked in again by this. Sorry folks. I shouldn't be responding when my age (which is wrong by 8 years in that post) is being thrown up as an argument as to why I'm wrong, as well as the fact I'm living in Derry :rolleyes:

barbarax · 17-06-2011 7:55pm

owenc wrote: »

Lol it's not me it's my family they have this stupid opinion that the spelling never changed and they ate denying that thus ever happened they also denying that they were church of Ireland... Yes I'm not surprised loll the Scottish version developed off the English one lol.. Cummings is a French name and it was brought to England first and then scotland so if anything we would be English lol... But I also thing that your going to have to face that your a Cummings swell lol because you won't find miskimmins in Scotland...

Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr lol

owenc · 17-06-2011 8:13pm

barbarax wrote: »

Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr lol

LOL but that will be the case since miskimmins is used in northern ireland.. i wonder who these ones are? I have traced them back to 1500! Its a pity i couldn't get back to scotland as i'd love to see how far back and were i could get to because the scottish records are while good!

John Cumming Compact Disc #133 Pin #3282301 Pedigree
Sex: M
Event(s)
Birth: 22 Oct 1642
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Christening:
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Death: 1703
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland
Burial:
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland

The ancestry sites say the origin of the name is in france but i don't beleive that as i have found sever comyns in morayshire in the 900AD era what you think? BTw does anyone from donegal know of the cummings donegal? Who are they? Here barbarax do you know these ones? Theres ones in donaghdee.. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/C/Cummings.htm .. It says they came over from scotland in 1607..

barbarax · 17-06-2011 8:38pm

owenc wrote: »

LOL but that will be the case since miskimmins is used in northern ireland.. i wonder who these ones are? I have traced them back to 1500! Its a pity i couldn't get back to scotland as i'd love to see how far back and were i could get to because the scottish records are while good!

John Cumming Compact Disc #133 Pin #3282301 Pedigree
Sex: M
Event(s)
Birth: 22 Oct 1642
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Christening:
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Death: 1703
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland
Burial:
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland

The ancestry sites say the origin of the name is in france but i don't beleive that as i have found sever comyns in morayshire in the 900AD era what you think? BTw does anyone from donegal know of the cummings donegal? Who are they? Here barbarax do you know these ones? Theres ones in donaghdee.. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/C/Cummings.htm .. It says they came over from scotland in 1607..

Don't know them personally I AM NOT THAT OLD, however my friend was married to a cummings so I must ask her was he from Donaghadee....or where. Also neighbours of ours when I was YOUNG were Cummings but they came from Belfast originally. At least my lot keep the name Miskimmin back to 1750 can't get any further back than that, your lot keeps changing their name;)
Yes the Scotlandspeople site is good, however same thing happens when you go back further than 1700 they are wrote in a list of baptisms and they don't tell you who father mother is and a lot of them you cant make out the writing.

owenc · 17-06-2011 8:48pm

barbarax wrote: »

Don't know them personally I AM NOT THAT OLD, however my friend was married to a cummings so I must ask her was he from Donaghadee....or where. Also neighbours of ours when I was YOUNG were Cummings but they came from Belfast originally. At least my lot keep the name Miskimmin back to 1750 can't get any further back than that, your lot keeps changing their name;)
Yes the Scotlandspeople site is good, however same thing happens when you go back further than 1700 they are wrote in a list of baptisms and they don't tell you who father mother is and a lot of them you cant make out the writing.

LOL well obviously!

Oh really lol your probably related no doubt! :eek: Its probably similar to the folk over in limavady related wayy out to us.. LOL your lucky tho at least when you check the records you know its yours but i have to do loads of research to make sure its them! :mad: Are you a member of scotlands people? I am not and everytime i look it asks me for money!:mad: I've tried looking at wigtownshire records and the earliest is 1680s lets hope that we are from the kirkcudbrightshire clan! that is originally were our landlord is from so lets hope so! Aw well at least i know we are planters and that i have an idea of where we came from when i first started three years ago i knew nothing! The name is very rare here we are the only ones with that spelling in the county so anyone with that spelling is a relative of my guaranteed, it seems that its the complete opposite in county down tho.

owenc · 17-06-2011 9:22pm

bob just thinkin that might be your ancestors carmoney is like 5 mile from carrickfergus..

What Is the real origin of the surname Miskimmins

Comments