Dairy-beef vs sheep

Siamsa Sessions · 20-02-2020 5:01pm #1

Hi all,

I sat down to work out how much sheep fencing I need to do (1) within the next 2 months, and (2) within the next 2 years.

The answer is (1) €2k's worth and (2) €3k's worth. So, over €5k in total. This is for materials only and I'd be doing it myself. Any I've put up over the last 12 months has cost me roughly €2.50 - €3.00 per metre. I've priced getting someone to do it and was quoted €7-8 per metre. Even if I went down the TAMS route (40% of reference cost which is €5), it's still too expensive.

Anyway, it got me thinking whether it's worth it at all? I reared a few calves last year and managed to make a few quid on them, even though I only got them in May and then sold them in late November. Our place used to be a dairy farm so there's roadways, paddocks, and water troughs in place - for cows and cattle, that is, not sheep.

I'd miss the sheep, no question. And I like to think I know a bit about them now after 4 years of making mistakes with them. But I'm a part-timer with a young family, and they'd be happier not to see Daddy running across a field with a band-saw in his hand cutting furze bushes on a ditch trying to patch up gaps.

Hence the need for more fencing. But €5k in costs and every spare minute putting the fencing up is playing on my mind. And that's just to get set up right before there's any work done.

Anyone have any thoughts? Or anyone on here get out of sheep and then regret it?

_Brian · 20-02-2020 5:04pm

How about building the sheep slower and keeping it mixed.

lalababa · 20-02-2020 5:37pm

Yeah, if you like/want sheep , sure fence a little bit now and again and slowly bring up numbers and sure ye can have the few cattle aswell.
You don't have to go mad and go out and buy 100 ewesðŸ™‚. Anyway I hear they can compliment each other both in grazing and housing-cattle out early -sheep in for lambing.

Siamsa Sessions · 20-02-2020 5:47pm

Just for clarity - we have 50 ewes and have been lambing them the last few years so the stock is in place.

The issue is keeping them all in the same field at the same time, and the investment now required to manage them properly without needing to cut furze bushes and say a prayer they'll stay where they are

It's been seat-of-my-pants stuff up to now, barely keeping on top of them. And I can't go on doing that.

weatherbyfoxer · 20-02-2020 5:49pm

decent sheep fencing is probly the greatest investment on any stock farm..its a once of exspence.

tanko · 20-02-2020 5:58pm

If you're going to keep the sheep, good fencing is non negotiable surely?
Whether it's worth it financially doesn't really come into it, especially when you're working as well as farming.
You'll never have any comfort or peace of mind without proper fencing.
Going around patching holes in ditches with bits of whins sounds like a nightmare. I suppose when your children get older you could train them to do it:pac:

wrangler · 20-02-2020 6:01pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

I sat down to work out how much sheep fencing I need to do (1) within the next 2 months, and (2) within the next 2 years.

The answer is (1) €2k's worth and (2) €3k's worth. So, over €5k in total. This is for materials only and I'd be doing it myself. Any I've put up over the last 12 months has cost me roughly €2.50 - €3.00 per metre. I've priced getting someone to do it and was quoted €7-8 per metre. Even if I went down the TAMS route (40% of reference cost which is €5), it's still too expensive.

Anyway, it got me thinking whether it's worth it at all? I reared a few calves last year and managed to make a few quid on them, even though I only got them in May and then sold them in late November. Our place used to be a dairy farm so there's roadways, paddocks, and water troughs in place - for cows and cattle, that is, not sheep.

I'd miss the sheep, no question. And I like to think I know a bit about them now after 4 years of making mistakes with them. But I'm a part-timer with a young family, and they'd be happier not to see Daddy running across a field with a band-saw in his hand cutting furze bushes on a ditch trying to patch up gaps.

Hence the need for more fencing. But €5k in costs and every spare minute putting the fencing up is playing on my mind. And that's just to get set up right before there's any work done.

Anyone have any thoughts? Or anyone on here get out of sheep and then regret it?

Although l I've often said that i never regretted change from sheep/suckling to all sheep but sheep do very well when they make up only half the livestock units, we used to have most of the lambs gone by end august whereas now we're only starting selling end august. This I believe is due to less parasite challenge and having cattle to graze heavy covers rather than making the sheep do it.
Also sheep stay out longer in the winter if they only make up half the LUs.
Big question is then, are the dairy beef profitable enough not to take profit from the sheep? and will sheep justify the fencing?????????

Might be a good idea to wait for the next CAP Reform .ya might be paid well for doing very little

Young95 · 20-02-2020 7:38pm

In a similar situation myself as I’ve to fully sheep fence 50 acres here and dreading the cost . I’m gona go for the 60% grant tho but I think it’s money well spent and saved rather than sheep getting mixed up with one another!

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-02-2020 8:51pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Just for clarity - we have 50 ewes and have been lambing them the last few years so the stock is in place.

The issue is keeping them all in the same field at the same time, and the investment now required to manage them properly without needing to cut furze bushes and say a prayer they'll stay where they are

It's been seat-of-my-pants stuff up to now, barely keeping on top of them. And I can't go on doing that.

Pallets can be repurposed and last a bit longer than a bit of furze:D

Fencing for sheep is a battle, either bite the bullet and do it early or take it bit by bit every year and suffer the frustration of waiting.

I was at a sheep walk down here last year at the sheep grassland farmer of the year and he started off with boundary fencing, then field fencing before finally paddock fencing so he did it over a few years as money allowed. He also used internal temporary stripwire fencing to reduce the areas the sheep had access to, 4 rows iirc. He still uses stripwires to divide the paddocks to get better utilisation.

Siamsa Sessions · 20-02-2020 9:26pm

Thanks for all the replies folks.

The €2k in the next few months would do most of the field boundaries. The other €3k would be for setting up internal paddocks in those fields.

Is it 23% VAT you can claim back on fixed infrastructure like fencing? Can the remainder be depreciated, like sheds and machinery?

Dinzee Conlee · 20-02-2020 9:38pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies folks.

The €2k in the next few months would do most of the field boundaries. The other €3k would be for setting up internal paddocks in those fields.

Is it 23% VAT you can claim back on fixed infrastructure like fencing? Can the remainder be depreciated, like sheds and machinery?

Have you already applied for the 40% grant on the fencing you are planning on doing in the next few months?
From what I remember when I applied fo it, it took a good few months to hear back. Now - that was a few years ago, so maybe the dept are quicker now...

As for what to do - only you can answer that. I would say, if you are planning on keeping sheep, then you have to do the fencing.
Not doing it is only bringing hardship on yourself.

Siamsa Sessions · 20-02-2020 10:07pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Have you already applied for the 40% grant on the fencing you are planning on doing in the next few months?
From what I remember when I applied fo it, it took a good few months to hear back. Now - that was a few years ago, so maybe the dept are quicker now...

As for what to do - only you can answer that. I would say, if you are planning on keeping sheep, then you have to do the fencing.
Not doing it is only bringing hardship on yourself.

I can’t afford the grant spec materials for TAMS, even with 40% back. Plus I’m not sure I could put up the fencing itself to inspection standards.

Keeping the sheep = spending the money. That’s the big decision: do I not invest and get rid of them, to replace them with HE and AA heifer calves since the fencing is already in place for them?

Or invest the €2k now and slowly work towards another €3k in sheep fencing while buying a few calves along the way?

wrangler · 20-02-2020 10:32pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I can’t afford the grant spec materials for TAMS, even with 40% back. Plus I’m not sure I could put up the fencing itself to inspection standards.

Keeping the sheep = spending the money. That’s the big decision: do I not invest and get rid of them, to replace them with HE and AA heifer calves since the fencing is already in place for them?

Or invest the €2k now and slowly work towards another €3k in sheep fencing while buying a few calves along the way?

Same here, started with cheap job, we've a good few trees in bundaries so pulled high tensile sheep wire tree to tree and got away with much fewer stakes.
Cattle seem to be your best option at the moment, money lnvested in cattle should make money IN NORMAL TIMES ,same money invested sheep fencing only makes life easier.
You get the vat back on all fencing and you are allowed deprecate the rest same as buildings

Dinzee Conlee · 20-02-2020 10:46pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I can’t afford the grant spec materials for TAMS, even with 40% back. Plus I’m not sure I could put up the fencing itself to inspection standards.

Keeping the sheep = spending the money. That’s the big decision: do I not invest and get rid of them, to replace them with HE and AA heifer calves since the fencing is already in place for them?

Or invest the €2k now and slowly work towards another €3k in sheep fencing while buying a few calves along the way?

Well, I say spend the money, do the bounds.

If you say you are setup for cattle, I assume you have a good fencer. Like Buford said above, use electric fence to subdivide paddocks. 3 strands should work I think...

Siamsa Sessions · 20-02-2020 10:53pm

wrangler wrote: »

You get the vat back on all fencing and you are allowed deprecate the rest same as buildings

That’d make a big dent in the initial costs in fairness.

If I could get someone to help clear back the furze and briars off the ditches now, I wouldn’t be badly set up. Any volunteers???

foxirl · 20-02-2020 11:13pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I can’t afford the grant spec materials for TAMS, even with 40% back. Plus I’m not sure I could put up the fencing itself to inspection standards.

Keeping the sheep = spending the money. That’s the big decision: do I not invest and get rid of them, to replace them with HE and AA heifer calves since the fencing is already in place for them?

Or invest the €2k now and slowly work towards another €3k in sheep fencing while buying a few calves along the way?

Take a look at clipex. By the time u take off the vat and the 40% tams you'd only be looking at 50% of the original cost. Keep in mind you can put a cost against your own labour if you errect it yourself it should make it cheaper again as u can claim 40% of your labour cost. If you had the bushes trimmed back and it was anyway straight you'd errect 200 meters a day handy enough.

Aravo · 20-02-2020 11:56pm

Cost of tams fencing here 400metres.
PDM intermediate posts and heavy strainers grant approved but not PDM.
1 32" sheep wire and 1 strand barb.

Materials e1, 600
Own time and machinery e550
Grant of 40% on e2,150
So got approx e850 back plus I will also get the 23% vat back.
So between the grant and the vat between 70 to 75% will be received back.
That's putting up the fence my self.
And the price of peace of mind is worth a lot. Have more to do, had planned on having it done but too wet these days to get at it so got a time extension.

memorystick · 21-02-2020 8:42am

Would a second strand of electric be ok go hoggets? No ewes and lambs here.

kk.man · 21-02-2020 10:04am

memorystick wrote: »

Would a second strand of electric be ok go hoggets? No ewes and lambs here.

Ordinarily I would say yes but would depend if they are used to electric in the first instance.

Bass Reeves · 21-02-2020 11:54am

The trick with using electric fence for sheep is to earth the middle wire, With current on the top and bottom if the sheep touch two wires they get a right rattle. I have seen lads fence along stone wall with a single strand up 3feet jigh

Siamsa Sessions · 21-02-2020 10:37pm

Ye’re all to blame - I went and ordered 100 stakes today to start this bloody fencing.

Sheep to stay for now anyway. Will put 50 ewes to the ram this year and build calf numbers in parallel. Taking back another 10 acres from a tenant in 2021 so we’ll see then whether to expand ewe or calf numbers.

Tis like Hotel California with sheep - check out any time you like, but you can never leave!

Say my name · 21-02-2020 10:55pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Ye’re all to blame - I went and ordered 100 stakes today to start this bloody fencing.

Sheep to stay for now anyway. Will put 50 ewes to the ram this year and build calf numbers in parallel. Taking back another 10 acres from a tenant in 2021 so we’ll see then whether to expand ewe or calf numbers.

Tis like Hotel California with sheep - check out any time you like, but you can never leave!

There's some good threads on here back in the archives on how to fence and strain wire. Just Google or use the search function on boards.

Good fences make neighbours who don't want to shoot each other with a shotgun.!!

Siamsa Sessions · 22-02-2020 12:00am

Say my name wrote: »

There's some good threads on here back in the archives on how to fence and strain wire. Just Google or use the search function on boards.

Good fences make neighbours who don't want to shoot each other with a shotgun.!!

Ah, I’m well able to do it. I’ve 400m put up in the last 12 months and got plenty tips and know-how from various YouTube videos. Tis just the thoughts of doing another 2,000m of it over the next 2 years, as well as the cost, that’s putting me off!

wrangler · 22-02-2020 12:16am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Ah, I’m well able to do it. I’ve 400m put up in the last 12 months and got plenty tips and know-how from various YouTube videos. Tis just the thoughts of doing another 2,000m of it over the next 2 years, as well as the cost, that’s putting me off!

Hope you're using high tensile sheep wire,:D
I'm replacing 20yr old stakes now and the wire is the same as the day it was put up.

Dinzee Conlee · 22-02-2020 9:02am

wrangler wrote: »

Hope you're using high tensile sheep wire,:D
I'm replacing 20yr old stakes now and the wire is the same as the day it was put up.

what stakes to get that will last is the big. PDM are expensive, but are supposed to last - time will tell...

I think if going non-TAMS, and if you can get them - old ESB/Eircom poles are as good as anything. Split the very heavy ones - they seem to last, some here are around as long as I am nearly...

wrangler · 22-02-2020 11:38am

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

what stakes to get that will last is the big. PDM are expensive, but are supposed to last - time will tell...

I think if going non-TAMS, and if you can get them - old ESB/Eircom poles are as good as anything. Split the very heavy ones - they seem to last, some here are around as long as I am nearly...

The twenty year old stakes I'm replacing are balcas, I used PDM ten years ago and i don't like the way they've aged. apparently they're not as good since the good creosote became illegal . I'm now buying foreign stakes off my local vocal beef plan rep, stakes are supposed to last 40 years. They're twice the price of the balcas but getting hard to source balcas now, a twenty year stake'd be enough for me now

carrollsno1 · 22-02-2020 11:48am

Anyone know much about clipex posts and insulators in Ireland?
Called starpickets/waratahs out here im looking into doing a bit with them when i get home, for calves and cattle as it looks like the sucklers are on the way out at home now.
Any advice appreciated.

Siamsa Sessions · 22-02-2020 1:48pm

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Anyone know much about clipex posts and insulators in Ireland?
Called starpickets/waratahs out here im looking into doing a bit with them when i get home, for calves and cattle as it looks like the sucklers are on the way out at home now.
Any advice appreciated.

Handy comparison here, including Clipex option: https://d3mdtxxgfz6upn.cloudfront.net/WEBFILES/000/179/902/406929-179902.pdf

Farm365 · 22-02-2020 10:37pm

Could you break down the profitability of the Dairy Beef calves you had? I’m sure a lot of people would be interested

carrollsno1 · 23-02-2020 12:33am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Handy comparison here, including Clipex option: https://d3mdtxxgfz6upn.cloudfront.net/WEBFILES/000/179/902/406929-179902.pdf

Fairly pricey at that price compared to here thats for sure.

Dairy-beef vs sheep

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