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CH or LIM bull

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  • 13-02-2020 1:57pm
    #1
    john mayo 10
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭


    Hi all. Have decided not to AI cows this year and run a bull with them. I'm trying to decide which breed of bull to use. Either CH or LIM. Have mainly Lim, Sim and Saler cows. I work about 20 mins from the farm but I work 12 shifts during the week. Days and nights rotating. We usually gave the cows an AI ch bull and buy in replacements springers. Dads at home but not getting any younger. Just trying to decide which breed to use. Ease of calving, etc. Usually sell all calves as weanling in October. Any suggestions would be great


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    #2
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,206 ✭✭✭tanko


    A neighbour of mine who changed from a Lim to a CH bull told me that he's getting more for his weanlings but that he has less of them to sell every October off the same number of cows. I thought this summed it up well.
    A CH weanling will make at least €100 more than a Lim of the same quality.
    On average Lim Bulls are easier calved than CH Bulls but there's huge variations in both breeds. Lim calves are usually livelier and quicker to get up and suck by themselves. CH's can be dopey and lazier.
    The big advantage of using Ai is that you can match a bull to each cow. With a bull this isn't possible. I'd err on the side of caution anyway.


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    #3
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    If you're working go for a lim. You can always ai a few to char before you let the bull out, with a bit of luck the char and the lim calves would all arrive the 1 week. Maybe take that week off as holidays.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #4
    DukeCaboom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭DukeCaboom


    Ch all day. You just have to know where to buy the right one.


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    #5
    Albert Johnson
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭Albert Johnson


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Hi all. Have decided not to AI cows this year and run a bull with them. I'm trying to decide which breed of bull to use. Either CH or LIM. Have mainly Lim, Sim and Saler cows. I work about 20 mins from the farm but I work 12 shifts during the week. Days and nights rotating. We usually gave the cows an AI ch bull and buy in replacements springers. Dads at home but not getting any younger. Just trying to decide which breed to use. Ease of calving, etc. Usually sell all calves as weanling in October. Any suggestions would be great

    As with everything there's no hard and fast rule but I'd definitely be leaning more towards a LM bull in that scenario. Yes you might lose out on sale price but ease of calving along with increased calf vigour should help offset this loss by leading to reduce mortality and labour around calving time.

    That's not to say that there aren't easy calved CH bulls and indeed some hard calved LM bulls but by and large a LM calf is easier calved and more lively than a similar CH calf. I've found that having all bright coloured cow's as opposed to black or grey results in red or orange calves off a LM bull which sell better than there black or mousey coloured comrade's.

    Seeing as you have regular off farm commitments and an ageing father I'd believe that reducing the labour input would be of huge importance. Pulling big calves, sections and bottling weak calves for a few days doesn't tie in well with a day job. Yes you'll sometimes have this misfortune with all breeds and management does play a part but I'd hazard that a LM over a CH bull is a safer bet in your position.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Hi all. Have decided not to AI cows this year and run a bull with them. I'm trying to decide which breed of bull to use. Either CH or LIM. Have mainly Lim, Sim and Saler cows. I work about 20 mins from the farm but I work 12 shifts during the week. Days and nights rotating. We usually gave the cows an AI ch bull and buy in replacements springers. Dads at home but not getting any younger. Just trying to decide which breed to use. Ease of calving, etc. Usually sell all calves as weanling in October. Any suggestions would be great
    Limosin all the way.

    Better drinkers, more vigorous and easier calving


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    #7
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    When ye were calving the AI ch bull, how did ye find the calves? And what CD did you go to? It's very hard to say without seeing the cows frames!
    I'd go CH personally, you've cows that would breed lovely coloured calves which would be getting a grand drop of milk.
    But I'd also be very liberal with pre calving minerals & iodine in the water/behind shoulders. Have found this to be a leading issue with our own dopey & weak calves but the last few years seems to be solved.


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    #8
    Dunedin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    Given the ops circumstances it’s Limo all the way.


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    #9
    Gods Gift
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭Gods Gift


    Lims can be feckers for goin over time. Watch that.


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    #10
    Hard Knocks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Gods Gift wrote: »
    Lims can be feckers for goin over time. Watch that.

    Agree can be as much as a week longer than the Charolais


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    #11
    Who2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭Who2


    I use both limo and ch bulls here. I’m working full time too, there’s no question the ch will come into better money but the limo is far easier managed, I rarely have a dopey limo but regularly dopey ch. if you’ve cows that aren’t breeding orange calves with ch then definitely go limo.


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    #12
    john mayo 10
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭john mayo 10


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    When ye were calving the AI ch bull, how did ye find the calves? And what CD did you go to? It's very hard to say without seeing the cows frames!
    I'd go CH personally, you've cows that would breed lovely coloured calves which would be getting a grand drop of milk.
    But I'd also be very liberal with pre calving minerals & iodine in the water/behind shoulders. Have found this to be a leading issue with our own dopey & weak calves but the last few years seems to be solved.
    Have found that CH calves are sleepy/dopey and slow to suck. Have a few heifers to bull aswell and might be as handy to just run a LM with them all.


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hard Knocks wrote: »
    Agree can be as much as a week longer than the Charolais

    Limos go around 10 days over maybe more. But are a lot easier in terms of calving and at foot


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    #14
    john mayo 10
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭john mayo 10


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Limos go around 10 days over maybe more. But are a lot easier in terms of calving and at foot
    Jesus lads I've had ch calves born 10 to 12 days late


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Jesus lads I've had ch calves born 10 to 12 days late
    Had Ch bulls and rams.

    Ch lambs are the opposite of calves.

    Ch calves had more problems with scour when we had them also


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    #16
    Hard Knocks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Jesus lads I've had ch calves born 10 to 12 days late

    As in 9 months + 10 days?
    I’ve found CH 283-292 days
    LM 290-300 days


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    #17
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,154 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    A few years ago a lad I worked with was going.buying a bull, he was getting advice about a Ch or BB. I advised him Lim and gave him.most of the reasons stated here, usually easier calving, more vigorous calves etc.he had mainly SIM cows . His brother was.onto him to go with CH. Anyway he understood the points I was making and bought a LM bull. Now he is lucky with the cows he has virtually all red calves. Both he and his brother watch each others cows. After two years his brother changed to an LM. Both buy in there heifer replacements now as they do not want wild cows and because of the length of time the BL stays in the herd

    If it was me OP and if your land was fairly good quality I get rid of the cows

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #18
    john mayo 10
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭john mayo 10


    Hard Knocks wrote: »
    As in 9 months + 10 days?
    I’ve found CH 283-292 days
    LM 290-300 days

    Ya 40 weeks plus 10 days especially if it's a bull calf


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    #19
    john mayo 10
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭john mayo 10


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    A few years ago a lad I worked with was going.buying a bull, he was getting advice about a Ch or BB. I advised him Lim and gave him.most of the reasons stated here, usually easier calving, more vigorous calves etc.he had mainly SIM cows . His brother was.onto him to go with CH. Anyway he understood the points I was making and bought a LM bull. Now he is lucky with the cows he has virtually all red calves. Both he and his brother watch each others cows. After two years his brother changed to an LM. Both buy in there heifer replacements now as they do not want wild cows and because of the length of time the BL stays in the herd

    If it was me OP and if your land was fairly good quality I get rid of the cows
    Why in gods name would you suggest that I get rid of the cows


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Why in gods name would you suggest that I get rid of the cows

    For an easier life.


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    #21
    TooOldBoots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 604 ✭✭✭TooOldBoots


    Pros and cons for each
    Limousine
    Easier to calf
    More Vigorous calf on the ground
    Cow is easier to get back in calf
    Heifers can be excellent replacements with plenty milk

    Cons
    A high number of Bulls can breed very wild animals
    Not all are easy calving
    100 euro less than the Charli


    Charolais
    Great quality calves
    Cross well with most cows
    Easy to finish fatten
    Worth more

    Cons
    Hard to very hard calving
    Calves can be very soft
    Poor cross from cows with holstein breeding :- mouse colored worth less
    Sourcing an easy calving bull is a problem, many of the Bulls are hard calvers
    Heifers are too beefy for replacements and have little or no milk for the calf


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    #22
    john mayo 10
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭john mayo 10


    Thanks for all the replies. Had the option of a HWN bull out of a CF52 cow. Great breeding alright. But with a few replacement heifer to bull and all our land in one block it would be torture keeping the bull away from them. Was chatting to a guy that rents bulls. Might suit me better as dad doesn't want a bull around all year. It's been hard enough to convince him to change from AI. Reason we are changing is too many repeats, time spent bringing them in, cows calving too late etc


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    #23
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    What ICBF say;

    Gestation, average for breed
    Char = +2.73 days
    Lim = +3.81 days
    So only 1.1 days longer on average.

    Calving, average for breed
    Char = 6.89%
    Lim = 4.69%
    So only 2.2% more

    From my own personal experience. If working off farm , go limousin. If at home fulltime go Charolais.

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



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    #24
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,154 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Why in gods name would you suggest that I get rid of the cows

    It is hard to see improved profitability from cows. Yes some political parties have promised to increase cow subsidiaries above 200 euro. At present subsidiaries amount to about 180/ cow but with present beef prices will stagnate or drop further. You now have to balance calf value with work/life balance. On goodish land a store to beef or calf to beef system outperforms Suckler cows if well run. Mind you if a Suckler cow operation not well run its a disastrous as well.

    With work a store to beef operation is the easiest run. Cattle can be ran in two bunches during the summer, cattle do not need to be checked every day, hardest part is meal feeding 6-8 weeks pre slaughter. Yes buying and marketing takes skill and timing but grids margin of 200/ head on a well run operation are achievable.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    It is hard to see improved profitability from cows. Yes some political parties have promised to increase cow subsidiaries above 200 euro. At present subsidiaries amount to about 180/ cow but with present beef prices will stagnate or drop further. You now have to balance calf value with work/life balance. On goodish land a store to beef or calf to beef system outperforms Suckler cows if well run. Mind you if a Suckler cow operation not well run its a disastrous as well.

    With work a store to beef operation is the easiest run. Cattle can be ran in two bunches during the summer, cattle do not need to be checked every day, hardest part is meal feeding 6-8 weeks pre slaughter. Yes buying and marketing takes skill and timing but grids margin of 200/ head on a well run operation are achievable.
    Break down hours worked on the farm against money earned.

    That's when it gets scary comparing bought in bullocks/heifers to sucklers.

    Herefords and Angus don't need much meal. You can buy feedlicks for the fields also.


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    #26
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Have found that CH calves are sleepy/dopey and slow to suck. Have a few heifers to bull aswell and might be as handy to just run a LM with them all.

    I always found that too, until I realised it twas me the issue was with- Minerals before calving!
    Sure whatever you go with, make sure you're happy with. Don't buy in haste!


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    #27
    Robson99
    Registered Users Posts: 4,189 ✭✭✭Robson99


    john mayo 10 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies. Had the option of a HWN bull out of a CF52 cow. Great breeding alright. But with a few replacement heifer to bull and all our land in one block it would be torture keeping the bull away from them. Was chatting to a guy that rents bulls. Might suit me better as dad doesn't want a bull around all year. It's been hard enough to convince him to change from AI. Reason we are changing is too many repeats, time spent bringing them in, cows calving too late etc
    JM
    We were faced with the same situation about 10 years ago.. always used AI....old fella didn't want a bull around the place ( didn't agree with him at first but seen the light )
    Anyways with my work commitments..young family..and he not getting any younger we got out of cows....
    Best decision we ever made. Now we buy in stores.. wouldn't go back to cows if you paid me.
    IMO you need to be full time farming to make sucklers work...no sooner at work than something goes wrong with a calf or cow


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    #28
    Gods Gift
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭Gods Gift


    For the last 4 or 5 years I have been feeding about 10tons of rolled oats with minerals to everything for a month before they calve. Incalf heifers especially. Would be incalf to aa. Cows incalf to ch and lim. Extremely lively calves. And cows in great order for calving. But we grow our own oats and I rolled it myself so buying it in a merchants might not be viable.
    But I would not be without the oats.


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    #29
    DukeCaboom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭DukeCaboom


    Gods Gift wrote: »
    For the last 4 or 5 years I have been feeding about 10tons of rolled oats with minerals to everything for a month before they calve. Incalf heifers especially. Would be incalf to aa. Cows incalf to ch and lim. Extremely lively calves. And cows in great order for calving. But we grow our own oats and I rolled it myself so buying it in a merchants might not be viable.
    But I would not be without the oats.

    Do you mix any soya with it?


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    #30
    Parishlad
    Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭Parishlad


    Gods Gift wrote: »
    For the last 4 or 5 years I have been feeding about 10tons of rolled oats with minerals to everything for a month before they calve. Incalf heifers especially. Would be incalf to aa. Cows incalf to ch and lim. Extremely lively calves. And cows in great order for calving. But we grow our own oats and I rolled it myself so buying it in a merchants might not be viable.
    But I would not be without the oats.

    Feed oats and minerals to to everything here also. Much smaller scale mind you. Mix up a bucket of oats per pen with a couple of scoops of minerals and throw down in front of barrier and they go mad for it. Firmly believe also that it benefits the calves, who are very lively when born, the cows do well from it also and hardly ever any retained cleanings.


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    #31
    Hard Knocks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Allot of cows are lacking iodine
    This results in dopey calves, held cleanings or slow to get back incalf
    Whether full or part-time looking after the cow will benefit in the long run


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