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Telling tenants to get with the programme

2

Comments

  • #32
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    They are not tennants. They are only lodgers. They have no rights only reasonable notice when it comes to eviction.

    I could declare to them that this is serious and that if you catch or even have a suspicion that they are not following the proper rules laid down and made clear by you that you will see to it that they and their belongings will be ejected from the property sharpish.
    Given that this is a health issue and is a major national health crisis I would consider "reasonable notice" to be the amount of time it takes for them to wash their hands thoroughly. I would give 24 hours notice and reduce it to 12 hours if they do not give a committment to washing their hands and observing good hygiene. I'd eject them immediately if they get any way aggressive over it.
    In fact I think you would have a reasonable grounds to eject them with immediate effect if they are putting you and your health in danger and are not compliant with requests to observe hygiene.

    Perhaps you could warn them that given the current circumstances, and the severe health risk they are putting you in because of their laziness and defiance, you have the right to eject them out onto the street with a moment's notice and they might site up and cop themselves on.

    Personally if I were in your position, I would just eject both of them regardless of their hygiene. They are a risk and you are better to eliminate them. You are older and thus at a higher risk.


  • #33
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 9,999 ✭✭✭Caranica


    THEY ARE NOT TENANTS! Simple as that. They are lodgers/paying guests in your home. No right to stay there beyond the end of their permission to do so.


  • #34
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,221 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I called Citizen Information a few minutes ago. Apparently rent a room doesn't come under the Act however the purpose of the Act is to protect tenants from evictions so it's not clear whether I can or can't. My understanding of the Act is that tenants should be protected in case they lose the ability to pay rent, but my concerns are related to health, not to money. How can the law force someone to share their personal space with a stranger against their will?

    They’re not tenants. They have no protection under the act in the same way as they aren’t protected by the wildlife act, because they’re not hedgehogs.


  • #35
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    They are not tennants. They are only lodgers. They have no rights only reasonable notice when it comes to eviction.

    I could declare to them that this is serious and that if you catch or even have a suspicion that they are not following the proper rules laid down and made clear by you that you will see to it that they and their belongings will be ejected from the property sharpish.
    Given that this is a health issue and is a major national health crisis I would consider "reasonable notice" to be the amount of time it takes for them to wash their hands thoroughly. I would give 24 hours notice and reduce it to 12 hours if they do not give a committment to washing their hands and observing good hygiene. I'd eject them immediately if they get any way aggressive over it.

    Personally if I were in your position, I would just eject both of them regadless of their hygiene. They are a risk and you are better to eliminate them.


    One left already without objections

    The other one was notified in January verbally. I sent him a message on whatsapp this morning to have it on record too, but as the country is under emergency if her refuses to leave I'll have a hard time enforcing the eviction. The funny thing is that there are plenty of rooms available and rents are dropping too


  • #36
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    You enforce it by locking the door when they are out and leaving their stuff outside in a plastic bag.

    They are lodgers. They do not come under the Residential Tenancies Act at all. They are licencees, and are in the house so long as you give consent to them to remain.

    If you withdraw that consent, for whatever reasons, (not liking their hairstyle would be enough) and remove them with reasonable notice. In the current climate and given the risks you face from them, "reasonable" would be a very short amount of time indeed, hours rather than days or weeks.

    If they dig their heels in and refuse to vacate then they become trespassers and you can call the Gardai in to extract them from the house. By physical force if it becomes necessary.


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  • #37
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    You enforce it by locking the door when they are out and leaving their stuff outside in a plastic bag.


    I would have no problems doing that, I just don't want to face legal consequences evicting someone in the middle of the pandemic.

    The Act is not clear, it doesn't specifically talk about rent-a-room, your man at Citizien Info advised to call my GP to get a cert that states my requirement to isolate, I mean, come on! I don't have immune deficient and I'm not 70 yo. I just want to have a right to look after my health


  • #38
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    you will find that the RT Acts are perfectly clear in this regard. The Act does not refer to the rent a room scheme or the treatment of lodgers/licencees because precisely because the scheme, lodgers/licencees DO NOT FALL UNDER THE ACT and the Act is totally and utterly irrelevant to them.
    In the same way that the RT Act does not mention hedgehogs - because the Act has and is not intended to have anything whatsoever to do with regulating hedgehogs or their living arrangements.
    Or the same reason that the Act does not mention anything about, say, the minimum duration time for
    a Mass, because that is not the purpose of the Act.

    Also, putting them out of the house is not an Eviction. Eviction is the removal of a tenant. They are not tennants. You'll notice that I say ejection of the lodgers, rather than eviction. because it is not an eviction. they are lodgers/licencees who are licenced/permitted to stay in the house so long as you giver permission for them to do so. When you withdraw that permission (ie, a licence), they are requried to leave and if they defy you, they become trespassers and you can have the Gardai remove them.

    You only have to give reasonsbale notice, in this instance considering they and their defiant and dirty behaviour are an imminent and serious danger to your health and your life, reasonable notice would be the amount of time required to turf them out the door head first.
    You will not find any legislation detailing this. It is a common law convention.


  • #39
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I would have no problems doing that, I just don't want to face legal consequences evicting someone in the middle of the pandemic.

    The Act is not clear, it doesn't specifically talk about rent-a-room, your man at Citizien Info advised to call my GP to get a cert that states my requirement to isolate, I mean, come on! I don't have immune deficient and I'm not 70 yo. I just want to have a right to look after my health

    The act is perfectly clear. Look at Section 3.


  • #40
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The act is perfectly clear. Look at Section 3.


    do you have a link to the full text by any chance? i can't find it online


  • #41
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/ResultsTitleAct.html?q=Residential+Tenancies+act

    At the top filter the search results down to Acts to exclude the SIs


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  • #42
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act).

    (2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings—

    (a) a dwelling that is used wholly or partly for the purpose of carrying on a business, such that the occupier could, after the tenancy has lasted 5 years, make an application under section 13 (1)(a) of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 in respect of it,

    (b) a dwelling to which Part II of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act 1982 applies,

    (c) a dwelling let by or to—

    (i) a public authority, or

    (ii) a body standing approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9 (2) of the Housing Act 1988 ,

    (d) a dwelling, the occupier of which is entitled to acquire, under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978 , the fee simple in respect of it,

    (e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease,

    (f) a dwelling let to a person whose entitlement to occupation is for the purpose of a holiday only,

    (g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides,

    (h) a dwelling within which the spouse, parent or child of the landlord resides and no lease or tenancy agreement in writing has been entered into by any person resident in the dwelling,

    (i) a dwelling the subject of a tenancy granted under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 or under Part III of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1931 or which is the subject of an application made under section 21 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 and the court has yet to make its determination in the matter.


  • #43
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Thank you all for your feedback today, very useful!


  • #44
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 9,999 ✭✭✭Caranica


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Thank you all for your feedback today, very useful!

    Hope you got sorted, if not you need to get them out tomorrow morning before the new Bill becomes law!


  • #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    can have the Gardai remove them.

    Trespass is a civil matter unless there's additional actions and circumstances.

    You deciding a person that until ten minutes ago lived there, is no longer welcome doesn't cut it.

    You would require either a valid reason why they are putting you in fear or a genuine concern that they intend to commit a crime.

    Gardai would not force a person out the door for you.


  • #46
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Caranica wrote: »
    Hope you got sorted, if not you need to get them out tomorrow morning before the new Bill becomes law!


    One lodger left on Sunday then she sent me a nasty email saying that she was going to complain with the RTB for unfair eviction, i replied to her that this is my sole residence and that i can no longer rent out rooms, she was given 2 weeks notice which i deem fair notice
    The second lodger is expected to move out on 1st April, I'm not sure if this is going to go ahead at this point. Renting rooms is not covered by the tenancy act so ideally i should be ok to kick him out, but of he refuses to leave i doubt the Garda will enforce the law
    It's unbelievable how someone can't get rid of a stranger in their own home once they provided enough notice


  • #47
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Trespass is a civil matter unless there's additional actions and circumstances.

    You deciding a person that until ten minutes ago lived there, is no longer welcome doesn't cut it.

    You would require either a valid reason why they are putting you in fear or a genuine concern that they intend to commit a crime.

    Gardai would not force a person out the door for you.


    I have given him verbal notice in January, which in normal circumstances should be enough as there is no need to written notice. However last week i followed up with a written whatsapp message to remind him of his exit date, so either way he can't say that i'm kicking him out without notice. Not sure how much the Garda can enforce this given the current state of things


  • #48
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    OK, after watching Leo's speech about the new restrictions i feel like my chances to get rid of the lodger are getting thinner


  • #49
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 9,999 ✭✭✭Caranica


    Why did you give him notice in January to move out in April?


  • #50
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Caranica wrote: »
    Why did you give him notice in January to move out in April?


    I gave him verbal notice in Jan that i needed the room back at the end of February, towards the end of the month he still hadn't found a room so he asked me for an extension of 1 month, until end of March (official exit date 1st April). I agreed to that, but the pandemic escalated very quickly in Ireland. The eviction ban was announced a week ago for tenancies only and extended to licences today, but it looks like licences are intended as student accommodations only.


  • #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    One lodger left on Sunday then she sent me a nasty email saying that she was going to complain with the RTB for unfair eviction
    Fantastic, I bet she feels very smug with that little bit of a threat, shame she clueless about the actual law in this regard. I am always amazed that people seem convinced they have all these rights when renting a room in my house. I remember one guy threatning me that if I didnt let him stay he would report me to revenue over the unclaimed income. Fools!
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    but of he refuses to leave i doubt the Garda will enforce the law
    Enforce what law?
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I have given him verbal notice in January, which in normal circumstances should be enough as there is no need to written notice. However last week i followed up with a written whatsapp message to remind him of his exit date, so either way he can't say that i'm kicking him out without notice. Not sure how much the Garda can enforce this given the current state of things

    thats all fine but again, theres nothing to enforce even in normal times, Its a civil dispute.
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    OK, after watching Leo's speech about the new restrictions i feel like my chances to get rid of the lodger are getting thinner
    I would be surprised if thats not the angle he takes. You gave him notice, plenty to be fair but I would suggest that this new move puts your eviction on ice.
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    It's unbelievable how someone can't get rid of a stranger in their own home once they provided enough notice

    I completely agree and it has been raised before but the Minister for Justice has repeatedly stated he has no plans to make trespass alone a criminal offence in its own right.


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  • #52
    Purple Mountain
    Registered Users Posts: 12,987 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I gave him verbal notice in Jan that i needed the room back at the end of February, towards the end of the month he still hadn't found a room so he asked me for an extension of 1 month, until end of March (official exit date 1st April). I agreed to that, but the pandemic escalated very quickly in Ireland. The eviction ban was announced a week ago for tenancies only and extended to licences today, but it looks like licences are intended as student accommodations only.

    It's not really your problem that he didn't find a place. You have given him AMPLE notice.
    Remind him again tonight that you require him gone by midnight on Tuesday as per your instruction since January.
    Either that or just put up with it until this passes.

    To thine own self be true



  • #53
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    thats all fine but again, theres nothing to enforce even in normal times, Its a civil dispute.

    I agree thats a bad answer and it has been raised before but the Minister for Justice has repeatedly stated he has no plans to make it a criminal offence in its own right.


    I'm tempted to change the lock but I fear legal consequences


  • #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I'm tempted to change the lock but I fear legal consequences

    indeed. 72 hours ago I would have said work away. Im afraif you have fallen victim to being too nice


  • #55
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I'm tempted to change the lock but I fear legal consequences

    What legal consequences?


  • #56
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    What legal consequences?


    Legal consequences for kicking someone out in the middle of an emergency, these things can be tricky. Anyway he is outside right now having a chat with his family who live few houses down from me. No social distancing


  • #57
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Legal consequences for kicking someone out in the middle of an emergency, these things can be tricky. Anyway he is outside right now having a chat with his family who live few houses down from me. No social distancing

    What are the legal consequences?


  • #58
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    What are the legal consequences?


    I would imagine the new bill will be enforced if people get evicted during this time, not sure how these things work. For now I'm trying the amicable approach, yesterday i spoke with him again and reminded him one more time that he is leaving on Tuesday, this morning I heard noises coming from his room of bags being stuffed and zipped, it's a good sign I hope
    On the other thread - sorry i hijacked 2 threads with this - I've been reassured that the law is on my side but I'm still doing my best to end this in the most amicable way


  • #59
    roper1664
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭roper1664


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I would imagine the new bill will be enforced if people get evicted during this time, not sure how these things work. For now I'm trying the amicable approach, yesterday i spoke with him again and reminded him one more time that he is leaving on Tuesday, this morning I heard noises coming from his room of bags being stuffed and zipped, it's a good sign I hope
    On the other thread - sorry i hijacked 2 threads with this - I've been reassured that the law is on my side but I'm still doing my best to end this in the most amicable way

    Best thing is just to forget about it for now, presume he'll be gone at the stated time/day, and, if he's not, then reassess at that point.


  • #60
    roper1664
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭roper1664


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I would imagine the new bill will be enforced if people get evicted during this time, not sure how these things work. For now I'm trying the amicable approach, yesterday i spoke with him again and reminded him one more time that he is leaving on Tuesday, this morning I heard noises coming from his room of bags being stuffed and zipped, it's a good sign I hope
    On the other thread - sorry i hijacked 2 threads with this - I've been reassured that the law is on my side but I'm still doing my best to end this in the most amicable way

    Best thing is just to forget about it for now, presume he'll be gone at the stated time/day, and, if he's not, then reassess at that point.


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  • #61
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I would imagine the new bill will be enforced if people get evicted during this time, not sure how these things work. For now I'm trying the amicable approach, yesterday i spoke with him again and reminded him one more time that he is leaving on Tuesday, this morning I heard noises coming from his room of bags being stuffed and zipped, it's a good sign I hope
    On the other thread - sorry i hijacked 2 threads with this - I've been reassured that the law is on my side but I'm still doing my best to end this in the most amicable way

    You would imagine? Surely you can read the Bill. How does it even apply to you and you lodger? What penalties are proposed? How can you talk of legal consequences when you don't know what they are?


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