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14-02-2020, 00:30   #61
Spook_ie
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Would you have been ok if the R.A.F had decided to bomb parts of Belfast/Derry in the 70's?
If they had been invaded by the Nazis via Dublin and the republic then yeah, Harland and Wolfe would have been a prime target as would likely Cork, Waterford and Dublin ports.
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14-02-2020, 00:45   #62
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I dont need to know "you", I know your type! Talking tough while sitting at home, pathetic.

Go back to playing call of duty, leave the fighting to those who have the guts.
Yawn.
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14-02-2020, 00:53   #63
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Dresden is not part of Northern Ireland. Assuming that’s what ‘the North’ refers to.

I’ll tell you now though, if Northern Ireland annexed Donegal and went to war with the Republic of Ireland for 5 years, all the while murdering innocent people in death camps over the border in Lifford and dropping rockets on Dublin and then one night it was blanket fire bombed and levelled, killing every man woman and child in it, I’d lose no sleep over it. I wouldn’t cry foul and I’d shed no tears about it.
What if you were on the other side? For example, if Ireland was involved in a World War atrocities and the bombs started raining down on your town or city, would you be content that you were part of the problem because you happened to live in Ireland?
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14-02-2020, 01:11   #64
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Mod: JayZeus and Blaze420 don't post in this thread again.


Words almost fail me.
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14-02-2020, 07:15   #65
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Great pictures and I genuinely take some satisfaction from knowing that many German civilians suffered terrible deaths during those bombings. They had plenty of blood on their hands as a people by then and very few were innocent or had no role to play in their war effort, or the suffering of those sent to their deaths in the camps.

Spectacular stuff.
Wonderful. Not only is this screed psychopathic and devoid of humanity, it also totally ignorant of history.

I suggest you read a history book about World War 1, the Treaty of Versailles and conditions in Germany in the interwar period. Or maybe just spend a few minutes on Wikipedia.

Firstly, over half a million German civilians had died of starvation and other causes due to a naval blockade that prevented Germany from importing even foodstuffs and other civilian supplies during World War I. Second, the terms of the peace were a disaster - the German Empire had been abolished and a liberal democracy imposed in its place but with conditions of surrender so punitive that the new Weimar government had zero chance of success. Germany in the interwar period was in a state of near constant civil war with communists and later fascists trying to destroy it from within (the various Red/Communist armies were killing people right left and centre), but it was prevented from having a military capable of putting down the revolts. Nor was the Weimar military capable of responding to the invasion of the Ruhr in 1923 or otherwise protecting the Republic's territorial integrity.

It was against this background that Hitler rose to power - it would have been nearly impossible otherwise. And though I don't know the full details, AFAIK it is disputed how much the German people knew about about the Nazi genocides.
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14-02-2020, 07:50   #66
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Wow amazing pictures, unfortunately the world hasn't changed mutch since, this kinda thing still happening.
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14-02-2020, 07:53   #67
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We really can be the biggest arseholes on this planet at times, hopefully we never ever repeat these kind of actions
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14-02-2020, 08:43   #68
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Wow amazing pictures, unfortunately the world hasn't changed mutch since, this kinda thing still happening.
While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.
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14-02-2020, 08:46   #69
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It was against this background that Hitler rose to power - it would have been nearly impossible otherwise. And though I don't know the full details, AFAIK it is disputed how much the German people knew about about the Nazi genocides.
They knew plenty about Kristallnacht and over a decade of persecution and dispossession of the Jews and other groups based on their race. They knew plenty about Germany's murderous wars of aggression where normal members of the Wehrmacht committed ample war crimes. In fact they enthusiastically engaged in and supported all of these things until they started losing the war.

The bombing of Dresden is a rallying cry for Nazi apologists. In fact it was a legitimate and necessary, albeit horrific, operation to win a murderous war Germany had begun and would not surrender in when it was clearly losing.

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Arthur "Bomber" Harris, 1942


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While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.
The US dropped several times the tonnage of ordnance on Vietnam that it did in all of WW2 and more on Korea then it did in the WW2 Pacific Theatre. Civilian losses were enormous.
They'd be doing the same today if precision guided munitions didn't make carpet bombing unnecessary.

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14-02-2020, 08:59   #70
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While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.
Palestine would come closest imo, probably a contentious statement by me to make but the bombing by Israel in 2014 left nothing but rubble and civilians were targeted.
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14-02-2020, 09:04   #71
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1200 planes, 4 tonnes of bombs and resulted in over 20,000 deaths
1200!?
Geez. That is insane. I wonder if anyone sarcastically said "think we have enough planes yet, guys?" - they really must have wanted to level that city. Which they did.
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14-02-2020, 09:07   #72
klaz
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They knew plenty about Kristallnacht and over a decade of persecution and dispossession of the Jews and other groups based on their race.
Plenty of countries during the same period expelled the Jews from their borders, or 'encouraged' them to leave. Anti-jewish sentiment existed in many European countries.

This is not a justification for German behavior.... but lets be a little bit more balanced and refrain from repeating the propaganda that the Allies have spread around about the War during and afterwards.

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They knew plenty about Germany's murderous wars of aggression where normal members of the Wehrmacht committed ample war crimes. In fact they enthusiastically engaged in and supported all of these things until they started losing the war.
Really? Links please. Or are we talking about the invasion of Russia here?

Have you considered the feelings of people/nations of that time about Russia, and communism?

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The bombing of Dresden is a rallying cry for Nazi apologists. In fact it was a legitimate and necessary, albeit horrific, operation to win a murderous war Germany had begun and would not surrender in when it was clearly losing.
It wasn't necessary though. Considering the scale of material and manpower that the allies had at their disposal, especially after the invasion of Russia, the outcome of the war wasn't in doubt. In any case, there's references around that show that the bombing didn't hamper the German industry that was directed towards the war effort. It was an attack aimed to increase the number of refugees and increase the demands on German supplies/resources. The intentional targeting of civilians.

We know that Hitler and the Nazi's were awful people with fcuked up intentions. It's just that some of us aren't particularly interested in wiping the slate clean for the allies who behaved abhorrently many times throughout and after the war.

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"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Arthur "Bomber" Harris, 1942
Yup. But consider comparing the amount of bombs (and types of bombs dropped) between the allies and Germany. You'll quickly find that the Allies far outstripped the German capabilities to bomb a city or civilian area. Their airforce had not been developed/built with strategic bombing in mind, and their rockets did extremely little actual damage.
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14-02-2020, 09:11   #73
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The US dropped several times the tonnage of ordnance on Vietnam that it did in all of WW2 and more on Korea then it did in the WW2 Pacific Theatre. Civilian losses were enormous.
They'd be doing the same today if precision guided munitions didn't make carpet bombing unnecessary.
Were you alive during the Vietnam war? I wasn't. Hence, my remark about being 42, and not recalling anything similar during my lifetime.

Precision guided munitions have been shown to be rather inaccurate at times. If the intention was there, they'd still be carpet bombing.

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Palestine would come closest imo, probably a contentious statement by me to make but the bombing by Israel in 2014 left nothing but rubble and civilians were targeted.
Fair enough. Thanks.
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14-02-2020, 09:40   #74
CrankyHaus
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Plenty of countries during the same period expelled the Jews from their borders, or 'encouraged' them to leave. Anti-jewish sentiment existed in many European countries.

This is not a justification for German behavior.... but lets be a little bit more balanced and refrain from repeating the propaganda that the Allies have spread around about the War during and afterwards.

Nazi Germany's uniquely extreme policies of racial persecution are a historical fact, not "Allied Propaganda". There is no equivalence between Nazi Germany and the racism and anti-semitism sadly common elsewhere at the time.


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Really? Links please. Or are we talking about the invasion of Russia here?

Wehrmacht war crimes are well documented historical fact and the "clean Wehrmacht" myth is well debunked by now outside of Nazi sympathiser circles. Asking for links puts you in company with those who demand "proof" that the holocaust occurred.

Here's a quick one anyway: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098



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Have you considered the feelings of people/nations of that time about Russia, and communism?
No idea what you're talking about here.


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It wasn't necessary though. Considering the scale of material and manpower that the allies had at their disposal, especially after the invasion of Russia, the outcome of the war wasn't in doubt.

The outcome of the war was very much in doubt after the invasion of Russia, which was expected to fall many times until the tide turned in 1943. Certainly by 1945 Germany could not win, but it would not surrender and continued to fight. How would you prosecute the last months of the war if strategic bombing was off the table? Tell tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Allied troops that they'll have to take one for the team because Klaz thinks bombing is mean?


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In any case, there's references around that show that the bombing didn't hamper the German industry that was directed towards the war effort. It was an attack aimed to increase the number of refugees and increase the demands on German supplies/resources. The intentional targeting of civilians.

Dresden was a major industrial centre churning out war materiel. It was also a major logistics centre through which tens of thousands of German troops could move through daily to reinforce the front lines, sadly for the same reason it was full of refugees.



Strategic bombing's effect on German industry, at Dresden and elsewhere, was undeniable. However it was never the war winning weapon that the RAF and USAAAF promised it would be. The British approach of targeting civilian housing was flawed and morally difficult to defend but a realistic approach to their capabilities in 1941-1943. The US targeting of oil infrastructure and other bottlenecks was more effective but beyond their capabilities until 1944. In short it wasn't nice but in a total war against a genocidal enemy they didn't have anything better.



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We know that Hitler and the Nazi's were awful people with fcuked up intentions. It's just that some of us aren't particularly interested in wiping the slate clean for the allies who behaved abhorrently many times throughout and after the war.

I don't think you're a Nazi sympathiser but I do think you're understanding of this issue is flawed as a result of fallacies on this topic spread on the internet and elsewhere by, among others, Nazi sympathisers. I suggest you read a book on the topic, Richard Overy's The Bombing War is a good recent one.

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14-02-2020, 10:10   #75
inforfun
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5 years earlier. Rotterdam May 1940. My dad was 7 and living there when that happened. And then came the hunger winter of 44\45
Dont expect sympathy from me for germans. Never had it, never will have.
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