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IFA and Factory Bitching thread.

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    #62
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Base price wrote: »
    This one https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef-grading-grid-in-place-by-january-26576796.html

    * Will beat me too it.

    There's nothing wrong with that deal ffs will you get a life.
    Our own lamb deal is something similar.
    This is getting childish now


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    #63
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    wrangler wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with that deal ffs will you get a life.
    Our own lamb deal is something similar.
    This is getting childish now

    Agreeing to mechanical grading machine that are owned and operated by the processors without any independent recourse for appeal was a major blunder.


    And incidentally the vast majority of lambs in this country are bought on a flat price basis and rightly so.


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    #64
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Agreeing to mechanical grading machine that are owned and operated by the processors without any independent recourse for appeal was a major blunder.


    And incidentally the vast majority of lambs in this country are bought on a flat price basis and rightly so.

    We get a better price by putting lambs to grade, so why not.
    I know not everyone is declaring their prices on here but we are way outclassing anything quoted here for lambs

    If I owned a factory and someone tried to tell me what to do I wouldn't give them much heed, Hell, I'd f... them outa the place. Those guys'd eat us for breakfast. Suppose I should be chuffed that you think IFA have so much power that they could veto any factory proposal
    Beef producers wanted department graders off the line, any other story is lies and a refusal by farmers to take responsibilty for the way it has evolved. The nature of mechanical grading is that its final....when a technician plugs a computer into your tractor do you appeal the result.
    The public service (that you all seem to know and luv) are responsible for monitoring trim and grading and you know my opinion there.
    As i said we had a livestock rep at our branch meeting last night and the general opinion last night was satisfaction with the grading, only deterioration was cattle quality so maybe AOs are doing their job


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    #65
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    The only people attending ifa meetings are a small number of the party faithful. It’d be akin to asking the few crawthumping aul ones in a Monday morning mass their opinion on the abortion referendum. You definitely wouldn’t be getting the view of the majority.


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    #66
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    The only people attendinding ifa meetings are the party faithful. It’d be akin to asking the few crawthumping aul ones in a Monday morning mass their opinion on the abortion referendum. You definitely wouldn’t be getting the view of the majority.

    More bull****, you're wrong there, people support local branches that are never seen anywhere else.
    IFA have failed to take on the factories, so have ICSA also ICMSA, what's the common denominator......farmers...says it all really.
    I walked away from beef price rubbish years ago, even when I had good sucklers and selling quality cattle that were saleable, I always got on well and you certainly wouldn't get me at the gates of ICM Camolin standing around a barrel.
    Most farmers don't even go to see their cattle being killed and if they saw the rubbish carcase s compared with Rs and Us hanging up they might change their tack.
    You know the fate of dairy bull calves in New zealand.....says it all too


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    #67
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    The majority of guys selling cattle to factories do not attend ifa meetings anymore. Your suggestion that the greater majority are happy with the consistency of factory owned lotto machine grading machines is bull****. Joe Healy is on the front page of the journal this week claiming the increased focus on the issue as a victory for ifa lobbying because of farmer dissatisfaction.
    Did you even read it?


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    #68
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    The majority of guys selling cattle to factories do not attend ifa meetings anymore. Your suggestion that the greater majority are happy with the consistency of factory owned lotto machine grading machines is bull****. Joe Healy is on the front page of the journal this week claiming the increased focus on the issue as a victory for ifa lobbying because of farmer dissatisfaction.
    Did you even read it?

    I just asked at the meeting, I know the cattle these guys feed, I know the people, Joe should be looking at the cattle before he goes out on a limb, They have Thomas Burke up there (or used to have) dealing with factory issues, I'd like to hear his opinion,
    Anyway they always say to phone them if there's a problem, they won't be long sorting the wheat from the chaff


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    #69
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,154 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    wrangler wrote: »
    More bull****, you're wrong there, people support local branches that are never seen anywhere else.
    IFA have failed to take on the factories, so have ICSA also ICMSA, what's the common denominator......farmers...says it all really.
    I walked away from beef price rubbish years ago, even when I had good sucklers and selling quality cattle that were saleable, I always got on well and you certainly wouldn't get me at the gates of ICM Camolin standing around a barrel.
    Most farmers don't even go to see their cattle being killed and if they saw the rubbish carcase s compared with Rs and Us hanging up they might change their tack.
    You know the fate of dairy bull calves in New zealand.....says it all too
    wrangler wrote: »
    I just asked at the meeting, I know the cattle these guys feed, I know the people, Joe should be looking at the cattle before he goes out on a limb, They have Thomas Burke up there (or used to have) dealing with factory issues, I'd like to hear his opinion,
    Anyway they always say to phone them if there's a problem, they won't be long sorting the wheat from the chaff


    I do not know where you get the idea that suckler cattle are a premium product. Yes if they are killed sub 350kgs processors can use them for the UK market which is the highest paying in Europe. Most finished suckler male cattle do not fit into this section. In general processors only want continental suckler heifers for the premium trade as they kill at lower weights and grades less than bullocks and bulls. Any suckler finishing above the 350 DW in general goes to lower priced markets in Europe so is a commodity product. As well AA and HE cattle are targeted for the UK supermarket trade because they area premium product.

    Cormack Healy has more than once stated that the ideal carcase is an O+/R- around the 300-330 kg mark. After that they are happier going down the grid rather than up it. U grade carcasses generally need to go over the 400kgs DW to get fat cover on them these provides steaks that are too large. As well it is in the processors intrest that these carcasses grade as well as possible as most are exported in quarters to these markets. Not so with the UK market where most of the market is in tray form so grading costs processors money

    I gave up attending IFA meeting after I heard an IFA officer on about elephants will be needed again to a group composing mostly of suckler farmers. When you have IFA officers who do not understand the markets that cattle go into but spout rubbish to those listening

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #70
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    wrangler wrote: »
    Willfarman wrote: »
    Agreeing to mechanical grading machine that are owned and operated by the processors without any independent recourse for appeal was a major blunder.


    And incidentally the vast majority of lambs in this country are bought on a flat price basis and rightly so.

    We get a better price by putting lambs to grade, so why not.
    I know not everyone is declaring their prices on here but we are way outclassing anything quoted here for lambs

    If I owned a factory and someone tried to tell me what to do I wouldn't give them much heed, Hell, I'd f... them outa the place. Those guys'd eat us for breakfast. Suppose I should be chuffed that you think IFA have so much power that they could veto any factory proposal
    Beef producers wanted department graders off the line, any other story is lies and a refusal by farmers to take responsibilty for the way it has evolved. The nature of mechanical grading is that its final....when a technician plugs a computer into your tractor do you appeal the result.
    The public service (that you all seem to know and luv) are responsible for monitoring trim and grading and you know my opinion there.
    As i said we had a livestock rep at our branch meeting last night and the general opinion last night was satisfaction with the grading, only deterioration was cattle quality so maybe AOs are doing their job
    You do make some valid points here that I do agree with however my cattle are missing get that plug in port just like my cattle!


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    #71
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    I do not know where you get the idea that suckler cattle are a premium product. Yes if they are killed sub 350kgs processors can use them for the UK market which is the highest paying in Europe. Most finished suckler male cattle do not fit into this section. In general processors only want continental suckler heifers for the premium trade as they kill at lower weights and grades less than bullocks and bulls. Any suckler finishing above the 350 DW in general goes to lower priced markets in Europe so is a commodity product. As well AA and HE cattle are targeted for the UK supermarket trade because they area premium product.

    Cormack Healy has more than once stated that the ideal carcase is an O+/R- around the 300-330 kg mark. After that they are happier going down the grid rather than up it. U grade carcasses generally need to go over the 400kgs DW to get fat cover on them these provides steaks that are too large. As well it is in the processors intrest that these carcasses grade as well as possible as most are exported in quarters to these markets. Not so with the UK market where most of the market is in tray form so grading costs processors money

    I gave up attending IFA meeting after I heard an IFA officer on about elephants will be needed again to a group composing mostly of suckler farmers. When you have IFA officers who do not understand the markets that cattle go into but spout rubbish to those listening


    Sold plenty of suckler cattle under 400 at 18 mths, never a problem with fatcover. They'd grade R but if they went another 3 mths they grade U over 400 kg, never know why farmers can't feed to spec required.
    Lovely to be able to pick what you listen to, for mths before the last bull fiasco I was warning farmers to check with processors before feeding bulls and what happened.
    Does that make farmers fools.....got me off the hook anyway . turned out the farmers were ''spouting rubbish to those listening'' by contradicting me


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    #72
    Cavanjack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭Cavanjack


    wrangler wrote: »
    same as 2013, bull price is first to suffer in a glut,
    County livestock rep was at our branch AGM, very poor demand for bulls

    No problem getting rid of Bulls here at the minute and bull prices as steady as any bullocks/heifers.


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    #73
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,133 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Agreeing to mechanical grading machine that are owned and operated by the processors without any independent recourse for appeal was a major blunder.


    And incidentally the vast majority of lambs in this country are bought on a flat price basis and rightly so.
    BTW the purchase & instillation of those same machines were grant aided by taxpayers money -

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/beef-plants-agree-to-grade-all-carcasses-by-machine-1.1308157


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    #74
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Base price wrote: »
    BTW the purchase & instillation of those same machines were grant aided by taxpayers money -

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/beef-plants-agree-to-grade-all-carcasses-by-machine-1.1308157

    What's your point..
    Everyone gets grants .....even farmers :confused:


  • Options
    #75
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Base price wrote: »
    BTW the purchase & instillation of those same machines were grant aided by taxpayers money -

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/beef-plants-agree-to-grade-all-carcasses-by-machine-1.1308157
    From the article...
    Agreement has been reached to replace Department of Agriculture classification officers with mechanical carcass grading machines
    At the time, where full employment was causing problems in attracting personnel to fill positions in the public service, it was easily justified to allow vacancies in other areas to be targeted for filling.


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    #76
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Ah Rangler is correct in that we wanted the graders off the line as they were prone to corruption however the machines should be completely independent of the plant operatives and paid for by a farmer levy. I agree Larry would have sent the ifa packing and they had no hope of such a veto however a different approach would have been to lobby the then minister as Larry can’t send the dept of ag or the NSAI packing. The standardization of these machines and their operation is in the public interest.


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    #77
    Goeasy123
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭Goeasy123


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    I do not know where you get the idea that suckler cattle are a premium product. Yes if they are killed sub 350kgs processors can use them for the UK market which is the highest paying in Europe. Most finished suckler male cattle do not fit into this section. In general processors only want continental suckler heifers for the premium trade as they kill at lower weights and grades less than bullocks and bulls. Any suckler finishing above the 350 DW in general goes to lower priced markets in Europe so is a commodity product. As well AA and HE cattle are targeted for the UK supermarket trade because they area premium product.

    Cormack Healy has more than once stated that the ideal carcase is an O+/R- around the 300-330 kg mark. After that they are happier going down the grid rather than up it. U grade carcasses generally need to go over the 400kgs DW to get fat cover on them these provides steaks that are too large. As well it is in the processors intrest that these carcasses grade as well as possible as most are exported in quarters to these markets. Not so with the UK market where most of the market is in tray form so grading costs processors money

    I gave up attending IFA meeting after I heard an IFA officer on about elephants will be needed again to a group composing mostly of suckler farmers. When you have IFA officers who do not understand the markets that cattle go into but spout rubbish to those listening


    I'm a long time follower of the boards farming forum & have rarely ever comment but this time I think I should. Bass I dont think I've ever agreed with someones opinion on the beef thread as much before. You speak complete sense. The market has changed in the last 20 years & no longer are the elephants needed for intervention beef. To their credit Irish factories went chasing the premium UK & European supermarket contracts at a decent price & that's why we can export 90% of our beef from these shores.

    Consumers have such a choice now when it comes to what protein they purchase & beef can never compete with pork or chicken on a price basis. They'll only pay x euro for a steak & it must be thick enough to cook properly but small enough that it wont cost them a fortune. How many farmers can say that they or their better halves go to their butchers or supermarket and buy a couple of huge steaks? No, they decide to spend €5 or €6 each & that's as much as they can afford.


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    #78
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Ah Rangler is correct in that we wanted the graders off the line as they were prone to corruption however the machines should be completely independent of the plant operatives and paid for by a farmer levy. I agree Larry would have sent the ifa packing and they had no hope of such a veto however a different approach would have been to lobby the then minister as Larry can’t send the dept of ag or the NSAI packing. The standardization of these machines and their operation is in the public interest.

    TBF The machines are on private property and that will always limit outside interference and customers will always set the terms. Supplier have very little choice then only comply or not supply


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    #79
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,133 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    wrangler wrote: »
    TBF The machines are on private property and that will always limit outside interference and customers will always set the terms. Supplier have very little choice then only comply or not supply
    Unfortunately wrangler I think you are right :mad:


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    #80
    Robson99
    Registered Users Posts: 4,189 ✭✭✭Robson99


    In relation to the Grading system I think most farmers would gladly accept say a €1 a head deduction per head killed to pay for independent grading or at least having representatives continuously spot checking machines
    In relation to what grade of carcasses we should be producing well IMO there is a market for all carcasses. Kill mostly U grade heifers here at 24 months and averaging 400kg+ carcasses. Never has there been a day yet that they refused to take them and never been cut for weights. My system would not pay if I kill them heifers sub 380kgs carcass.
    Yes I would like to see better increments on the grid for U grade cattle but look at the sheep market. Same price for a U grade Charlaois as an o /p grade hill lamb. And not paid for anything over the weight limit

    Recessions come and go and come back again. Dont be surprised if the arse falls out of the milking game sometime soon and sucklers will be back in fashion


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    #81
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,154 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    wrangler wrote: »
    TBF The machines are on private property and that will always limit outside interference and customers will always set the terms. Supplier have very little choice then only comply or not supply
    Base price wrote: »
    Unfortunately wrangler I think you are right :mad:

    There are loads of things on private property that are regulated. Every weighting scales from one in a small shop to the ones in quarries and shipyards are on private property and are regulated and under the supervision of the NSAI it the same with every petrol pump in Ireland as are the meters on milk collection lorries.

    There are very few items that measure anything that are not under the auspicious of the NSAI the only one I know is the grading machines in Meat factories. Sorry but you are BSing wrangler and again you are incorrect in your assumptions. The problem is we have a measuring system that is not monitored by anyone. And guess what these same people have been caught over trimming cattle so if you think they are incapable and unwilling to have the grading machines doing what they want you are living in crowd cuckoo land.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #82
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Weights and Measures Act, 1936
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1936/act/8/enacted/en/print

    Too tired to comment on it. Ye can read it yerself. ;)

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



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    #83
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    There are loads of things on private property that are regulated. Every weighting scales from one in a small shop to the ones in quarries and shipyards are on private property and are regulated and under the supervision of the NSAI it the same with every petrol pump in Ireland as are the meters on milk collection lorries.

    There are very few items that measure anything that are not under the auspicious of the NSAI the only one I know is the grading machines in Meat factories. Sorry but you are BSing wrangler and again you are incorrect in your assumptions. The problem is we have a measuring system that is not monitored by anyone. And guess what these same people have been caught over trimming cattle so if you think they are incapable and unwilling to have the grading machines doing what they want you are living in crowd cuckoo land.

    Public service is supposed to be monitoring trim and grading since the start,. not my problem if it's not being done, god knows I've flagged enough examples here of inefficiencies there. I've often said in meetings we're not responsible for the public service, all you can do is tell them the problems
    Grading and trim is brought up annually with the civil service, does anyone highlight the ''Genuine'' cases to IFA. I've never had a wrong grading brought to my attention, when temperatures dropped to minus 15 the machines were all over the place but apart from that nothing.


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    #84
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,133 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    There are loads of things on private property that are regulated. Every weighting scales from one in a small shop to the ones in quarries and shipyards are on private property and are regulated and under the supervision of the NSAI it the same with every petrol pump in Ireland as are the meters on milk collection lorries.

    There are very few items that measure anything that are not under the auspicious of the NSAI the only one I know is the grading machines in Meat factories. Sorry but you are BSing wrangler and again you are incorrect in your assumptions. The problem is we have a measuring system that is not monitored by anyone. And guess what these same people have been caught over trimming cattle so if you think they are incapable and unwilling to have the grading machines doing what they want you are living in crowd cuckoo land.
    This is a post from three years ago on this thread when I referenced NSAI. At that time other than cloughcasey there was little reaction to it other than the regular arguments with wrangler on the subject.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96706260&postcount=3808


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    #85
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Base price wrote: »
    This is a post from three years ago on this thread when I referenced NSAI. At that time other than cloughcasey there was little reaction to it other than the regular arguments with wrangler on the subject.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96706260&postcount=3808

    And you've done nothing about it since.....says it all really.
    Every accusation against the factory needs to be well evidenced,
    I'm not defending factories, I'm telling you about the real world :D


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    #86
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    Base price wrote: »
    This is a post from three years ago on this thread when I referenced NSAI. At that time other than cloughcasey there was little reaction to it other than the regular arguments with wrangler on the subject.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96706260&postcount=3808

    In our game you need to be NSAI regulated to take a pißs. You are audited regularly and it is seen as a plus that everyone will then also be pushed to the same standards. Now the factories wont take those standards lying down. But if it is forced upon every other industry why not theirs. Seems like as good an area to start as any other. We have to give NSAI certification on every job carried out why shouldnt Larry and co be producing the same on their skinning techniques and grading system. Every kg counts.


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    #87
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,133 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    wrangler wrote: »
    And you've done nothing about it since.....says it all really.
    Every accusation against the factory needs to be well evidenced,
    I'm not defending factories, I'm telling you about the real world :D
    Surely you mean - what have the IFA done about it. After all they are the principle farmers union in Ireland. As a member and beef farmer I assume that they should be looking after my best interest by ensuring that a independent, approved authority (NSAI) audit the methods used for weighing and calculating what monies we receive for a cattle carcasses.


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    #88
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    In our game you need to be NSAI regulated to take a pißs. You are audited regularly and it is seen as a plus that everyone will then also be pushed to the same standards. Now the factories wont take those standards lying down. But if it is forced upon every other industry why not theirs. Seems like as good an area to start as any other. We have to give NSAI certification on every job carried out why shouldnt Larry and co be producing the same on their skinning techniques and grading system. Every kg counts.

    It'll all be easy enough sorted when farmers withdraw their cattle.....:D

    Just on the IFA/NRA road deal, IFA wanted to renenegotiate the terms for aquisition of land, NRA didn't want to hear about it, I was Chairman of a group of 250 landowners, we got them all to sign forms refusing NRA entry on to our land until there was a very diiferent deal. I presented a folder of forms about two inches thick to the NRA, Within two or three days NRA contacted IFA (who let on to know nothing about it) mad keen to talk. We held up road construction for ten mths.
    Unless you get a similar lever on the factories, they'll only be laughing at ya


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    #89
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Base price wrote: »
    Surely you mean - what have the IFA done about it. After all they are the principle farmers union in Ireland. As a member and beef farmer I assume that they should be looking after my best interest by ensuring that a independent, approved authority (NSAI) audit the methods used for weighing and calculating what monies we receive for a cattle carcasses.


    And you know that the scales grading and trim aren't being monitored.
    Now I only assume they are, i can't see them being let away without

    Have you even bothered to ask your livestock rep what's the position.
    Like farmers whinge about weight and you ask, did you weigh them live..no doh
    You have to have proper complaints, you wouldn't believe what farmers'd walk you into


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    #90
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,154 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    wrangler wrote: »
    Public service is supposed to be monitoring trim and grading since the start,. not my problem if it's not being done, god knows I've flagged enough examples here of inefficiencies there. I've often said in meetings we're not responsible for the public service, all you can do is tell them the problems
    Grading and trim is brought up annually with the civil service, does anyone highlight the ''Genuine'' cases to IFA. I've never had a wrong grading brought to my attention, when temperatures dropped to minus 15 the machines were all over the place but apart from that nothing.

    TBH Wrangler you have an awful habit of preaching to us and then washing you hands like Pontius Pilate of unsuitable incidences.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #91
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    TBH Wrangler you have an awful habit of preaching to us and then washing you hands like Pontius Pilate of unsuitable incidences.

    Just losing patience with the niggly little complaints, Base Price hasn't even asked the county rep in three years yet keeps on and on about nothing.
    FFS Dept did 660 inspections last year, they got 21 overtrims in 50000 carcases, not exactly a crime spree, I shouldn't have to transcribe the journal here anyway. It just seems to be open season on IFA here, but the shooters have precious little ammo.
    I can tell you not all farmers have the high moral ground either


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