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Irish directed film on James Bulger comes under criticism for humanising the killers

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  • #392
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Porklife wrote: »
    What detective work? When did I claim to be a detective? I also haven't added any amateur psychology. I said I'm fascinated by serial killers and have read loads of books about the likes of Dahmer and the Wests. Not claiming that brings me any closer to understanding them or their actions.
    Of course he wanted to make a good film and obviously it is very well made, that's got nothing to do with my point. Your post is ridiculous.

    The amateur 'detective' deduced that there was sinister intent in wanting to make a film to further his career.
    And the amateur 'psychologist' reckons that his only motivation was notoriety and therefore wealth.

    BOTH are based on supposition that are not borne out by fact.


  • #393
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    8.8 on imdb ... typical "liberals", and people wonder why sensible people are leaving the left in droves and why Trump won.

    its good so? i might give it a watch


  • #394
    Calltocall
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Calltocall


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The amateur 'detective' deduced that there was sinister intent in wanting to make a film to further his career.
    And the amateur 'psychologist' reckons that his only motivation was notoriety and therefore wealth.

    BOTH are based on supposition that are not borne out by fact.

    It’s your opinion that Lambe didn’t aim to profit or gain notoriety, it’s the posters opinion that it was Lambes aim, you mention the posters opinion is not borne out by fact but you don’t know that, only Lambe does, it’s a board of opinions at the end of the day


  • #395
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Calltocall wrote: »
    It’s your opinion that Lambe didn’t aim to profit or gain notoriety, it’s the posters opinion that it was Lambes aim, you mention the posters opinion is not borne out by fact but you don’t know that, only Lambe does, it’s a board of opinions at the end of the day

    Yes I do know that.

    He couldn't have known that he would get a nomination, thousands of short films are made every year.
    There is no financial reward to be gained from a short film and the same thousands lose money mostly.

    So either he was very stupid in the path he chose or he is just a sincere film maker responding to stories and events that interest him.


  • #396
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Brentley Obedient Myth wrote: »
    "Everyone is essentially good but how they turn out depends on nurture" is a nice idea - and one I believed in for a long time, but it's not true.

    I get you, and I agree that some people are incapable of being 'good' for sure despite all the best efforts of those influencing them. I see nature vs. nurture as a hardware vs. software issue. The hardware can only be compensated for so much by good software and bad software can ruin a good machine.
    If they're born such that they can't be helped to be 'good' by outside influence I don't think it's any fairer to completely vilify them than if they had been brought up badly.
    I'm not saying we shouldn't still condemn bad acts, society's disapproval has its role as a correcting factor and our justice system keeps society safe, orderly and tries to steer people in the right direction.
    I think at the point that something like the Bolger killing has happened it makes more sense to try and understand why rather than just point fingers at the evil doers. There's a reason they acted the way they did and be it nature, nurture or more likely a combination of both, I think it's ultimately beyond their control.


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  • #397
    Porklife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Porklife


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Yes I do know that.

    He couldn't have known that he would get a nomination, thousands of short films are made every year.
    There is no financial reward to be gained from a short film and the same thousands lose money mostly.

    So either he was very stupid in the path he chose or he is just a sincere film maker responding to stories and events that interest him.

    He may not have known that it would get nominated but he was obviously hoping it would do well and would therefore up his profile and earn him money. Are you really saying that he made the film with no profit in mind?

    Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


  • #398
    Calltocall
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Calltocall


    kowloon wrote: »
    I get you, and I agree that some people are incapable of being 'good' for sure despite all the best efforts of those influencing them. I see nature vs. nurture as a hardware vs. software issue. The hardware can only be compensated for so much by good software and bad software can ruin a good machine.
    If they're born such that they can't be helped to be 'good' by outside influence I don't think it's any fairer to completely vilify them than if they had been brought up badly.
    I'm not saying we shouldn't still condemn bad acts, society's disapproval has its role as a correcting factor and our justice system keeps society safe, orderly and tries to steer people in the right direction.
    I think at the point that something like the Bolger killing has happened it makes more sense to try and understand why rather than just point fingers at the evil doers. There's a reason they acted the way they did and be it nature, nurture or more likely a combination of both, I think it's ultimately beyond their control.

    You make good points, your last one however is one point that galls me about this case, I don’t want to veer too far off course but if you look at say the crime which is in the papers and news here at the moment of a foreign lady being brutally murdered allegedly by someone close to her you will see that the suspect in this case is clearly suffering from severe mental health issues, in these types of cases you can say it’s beyond their control however I have never believed that to be in the case of James Bulger, if you look at the two boys, they tried to cover their tracks, denied their actions when questioned, displayed cunning/manipulation etc, imo they knew exactly what they were doing.

    I believe there are two ends of the spectrum to this case, on one end the burn them at the stake/execute them mob believing they are evil incarnate and at the other end would be the near apologists/the excuse seekers because of their traumatic childhoods etc. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle, two bad kids (for various reasons including background) with malice intent who battered and tortured a two year old to death for kicks, at least one of them in all probability was a psychopath albeit a very young one.

    Now for me once they commit an act like they did they forfeit sympathy, I don’t care for any deep insightful questions into their childhood such as omg what went wrong in their childhoods must of been horrific, oh the poor things it’s just terrible etc etc etc my only concern from then on is how do we protect society, my kids, your kids, our loved ones etc from individuals like this, what is the fitting punishment that needs to be dealt out to show that there are serious consequences for butchering a toddler, that they would not be coddled in care and probed by shrinks and soothed to ensure they are not upset. Strong punishment is required for horrific crimes like this as it protects all of us, if we skew it too far in the favour of the criminal which I sometimes think the judiciary here do we are failing to protect our communities and society as a whole. In this case I do not believe they received a fitting punishment they were coddled and released far too early, their rehab stint clearly hasn’t worked for Venables. While Lambe’s sentiment in making this film is nice I think it’s bs, there will unfortunately always be thousands upon thousands of kids that have bad upbringings and then there will unfortunately be the one in a million like venables/thompson who have the toxic combination of a bad upbringing and the key, a lack of an empathy switch, all of the documentaries/short films in the world won’t change that and our focus should be on how we protect society from such individuals.


  • #399
    Porklife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Porklife


    Calltocall wrote: »
    You make good points, your last point however is one point that galls me about this case, I don’t want to veer too far off here but if you look at say the crime which is in the papers and news here at the moment of a foreign lady being brutally murdered by allegedly someone close to her you will see that the suspect in this case is clearly suffering from severe mental health issues, in these type of cases you can say it’s beyond their control however I have never believed that to be in the case of James Bulger, if you look at the two boys, they tried to cover their tracks, denied their actions when questioned, displayed cunning/manipulation etc, imo they knew exactly what they were doing.

    I believe there are two ends of the spectrum in this case, the burn them at the stake/execute them mob believing they are evil incarnate and the other end would be the near apologists/the excuse seekers because of traumatic childhoods etc. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle, two bad kids (for various reasons including background) with malice intent who battered and tortured a two year old to death for kicks, at least one of them in all probability was a psychopath albeit a very young one.

    Now for me once they commit an act like they did they forfeit sympathy, I don’t care for any deep insightful questions into their childhood such as omg what went wrong in their childhoods must of been horrific etc etc etc my only concern from then on is how do we protect greater society, my kids, your kids, our loved ones etc from individuals like this, what is the fitting punishment that needs to be dealt out to show that there are serious consequences for butchering a toddler, that they would not be coddled in care and probed by shrinks to sooth them and ensure they are not upset. Strong punishment is needed for horrific crimes like this it protects all of us, if we skew it too far in the favour of the criminal which I sometimes think the judiciary here do we are failing to protect our communities and greater society. In this case I do not believe they received a fitting punishment they were coddled and let out far too early and their rehab clearly hasn’t worked for Venables, while Lambe’s sentiment in making this film is nice I think it’s bs, there will unfortunately always be thousands upon thousands of kids that have bad upbringings and then there will unfortunately be again the one in a million kids like venables and thompson who have the toxic combination of a bad upbringing and the key lack of the empathy switch, all of the documentaries/short films in the world won’t change that and our focus should be more on how do we protect society from such individuals.

    Excellent post and I agree with every word. I think you've very eloquently hit the nail on the head.


  • #400
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Porklife wrote: »
    He may not have known that it would get nominated but he was obviously hoping it would do well and would therefore up his profile and earn him money.

    Again with the cut rate psychology.:rolleyes: Take a look at his career, he is motivated by interest in stories and people.
    Are you really saying that he made the film with no profit in mind?

    Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
    Yes, he even says it in the interview. Nobody making a short film is motivated by making money. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that is ridiculous.


  • #401
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Calltocall wrote: »
    ... in these type of cases you can say it’s beyond their control however I have never believed that to be in the case of James Bulger, if you look at the two boys, they tried to cover their tracks, denied their actions when questioned, displayed cunning/manipulation etc, imo they knew exactly what they were doing.

    Someone with mental health issues can manipulate and plot like a pro, they could plan a murder long in advance, but what leads them down that path is what I believe is beyond their control. Condemn the act and lock them away for the safety of society, but it all stems from something that we should try to understand.
    I think we'll eventually understand the proximate causes of human behaviour like this and we'll able to reliably predict or even treat people like them, but not any time soon.
    That said, I doubt any documentary is going to shed useful light on anything.


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  • #402
    Porklife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Porklife


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Again with the cut rate psychology.:rolleyes: Take a look at his career, he is motivated by interest in stories and people.


    Yes, he even says it in the interview. Nobody making a short film is motivated by making money. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that is ridiculous.

    And you're a professional psychologist are ya? Get over yourself you clown.


  • #403
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Porklife wrote: »
    And you're a professional psychologist are ya? Get over yourself you clown.

    No. I work on the facts. I don't guess what he was thinking based on a lack of understanding of the film business.

    Nice bit of invective there though.


  • #404
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,061 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Porklife wrote: »
    He may not have known that it would get nominated but he was obviously hoping it would do well and would therefore up his profile and earn him money. Are you really saying that he made the film with no profit in mind?

    Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    You are not a filmmaker of any kind. You have absolutely no idea how a filmmaker thinks and in particular how a filmmaker writing and directing a short film approaches things. You are making assumptions because you disagree with the context of the film.

    Some facts Porklife -

    You do not make money from a short film.
    Your profile may be raised, if the short film is popular, but more often than not, it isn't and you head back to obscurity.
    The reaction to this film since the publicity will most likely damage Vincent Lambes fledgling career.
    The film was premiered a year ago and has been around the festival circuit for over 6 months now.
    The Director did not court controversy or notoriety at any point over the last year.
    The fact that it got linked with the Oscars, which has nothing to do with the Director, is the reason this thread exists and you are spouting baloney like a lot of others. You haven't seen it either. You are on a bandwagon.


  • #405
    Porklife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Porklife


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    You are not a filmmaker of any kind. You have absolutely no idea how a filmmaker thinks and in particular how a filmmaker writing and directing a short film approaches things. You are making assumptions because you disagree with the context of the film.

    Some facts Porklife -

    You do not make money from a short film.
    Your profile may be raised, if the short film is popular, but more often than not, it isn't and you head back to obscurity.
    The reaction to this film since the publicity will most likely damage Vincent Lambes fledgling career.
    The film was premiered a year ago and has been around the festival circuit for over 6 months now.
    The Director did not court controversy or notoriety at any point over the last year.
    The fact that it got linked with the Oscars, which has nothing to do with the Director, is the reason this thread exists and you are spouting baloney like a lot of others. You haven't seen it either. You are on a bandwagon.

    Lol... Yeah I'm on a bandwagon and know nothing about the case. Try telling the above 'facts' to Denise Fergus asshole.


  • #406
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Porklife wrote: »
    Lol... Yeah I'm on a bandwagon and know nothing about the case. Try telling the above 'facts' to Denise Fergus asshole.


    The fact is you have said stuff about short film which isn't based on any facts about short film. Accept that or present links to short film makers making money on short films.

    Denise Fergus does not have any censorship rights on this case, but she has our sympathy and should have been at least informed that the film was being made. There is nothing in the film that isn't already in the public domain however.


  • #407
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Porklife wrote: »
    Lol... Yeah I'm on a bandwagon and know nothing about the case. Try telling the above 'facts' to Denise Fergus asshole.
    Mod note: Porklife, don't post in this thread again.


    Buford T. Justice.


  • #408
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Well, it's now officially nominated

    Not sure how I feel about it. I'm so sorry for Jamie's mum and dad but there's half of me thinks they shouldn't have the right to prevent anyone making / watching a movie about this. I'm torn!


  • #409
    Dontfadeaway
    Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭Dontfadeaway


    They were chatting about it on Claire Byrne last night. She said RTE will be airing it in the upcoming weeks.


  • #410
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Dontfadeaway wrote: »
    They were chatting about it on Claire Byrne last night. She said RTE will be airing it in the upcoming weeks.
    Unbelievable


  • #411
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,061 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Dontfadeaway wrote: »
    They were chatting about it on Claire Byrne last night. She said RTE will be airing it in the upcoming weeks.

    At least then we'll have a chance at some informed opinion here rather than the mob mentality from a few.


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  • #412
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    At least then we'll have a chance at some informed opinion here rather than the mob mentality from a few.

    Hopefully someone else makes a documentary about all the children who grow up in extreme poverty and adversity, exposed to all sorts of horrific things, and yet somehow manage not to torment, torture and murder a small child and deviously attempt to cover up their crime.


  • #413
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Hopefully someone else makes a documentary about all the children who grow up in extreme poverty and adversity, exposed to all sorts of horrific things, and yet somehow manage not to torment, torture and murder a small child and deviously attempt to cover up their crime.

    Why don't you, if that interests you?


  • #414
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why don't you, if that interests you?

    If I had a talent for it and the funding I would definitely consider it.


  • #415
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,732 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    If I had a talent for it and the funding I would definitely consider it.

    You also need to interested/motivated by the subject matter. You can't phone that in, nor take suggestions from others about what you should be interested/motivated by.


  • #416
    Rezident
    Registered Users Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭Rezident


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Well, it's now officially nominated

    Not sure how I feel about it. I'm so sorry for Jamie's mum and dad but there's half of me thinks they shouldn't have the right to prevent anyone making / watching a movie about this. I'm torn!

    Me too, when I saw the interview with the parents I thought the movie should probably be banned but the more I think about it, we need to understand this, and we clearly do not.

    I understand the sentiment of locking them up and throwing away the key (or worse) but then we learn nothing. I am not easily shocked but the details of this case absolutely shocked me at the time and I feel sick thinking about it again now plus I have a toddler now.

    But I do feel I need to understand more about this, so I am more inclined to watch the film now, if I can stomach it. Otherwise what are we supposed to think - that John Venables was possessed by a demon?


  • #417
    gerrybbadd
    Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd


    Rezident wrote: »
    Me too, when I saw the interview with the parents I thought the movie should probably be banned but the more I think about it, we need to understand this, and we clearly do not.

    I understand the sentiment of locking them up and throwing away the key (or worse) but then we learn nothing. I am not easily shocked but the details of this case absolutely shocked me at the time and I feel sick thinking about it again now plus I have a toddler now.

    But I do feel I need to understand more about this, so I am more inclined to watch the film now, if I can stomach it. Otherwise what are we supposed to think - that John Venables was possessed by a demon?

    Try reading The Sleep of Reason by David James Smith. If anything paints the 2 lads in a sympathetic light, it's this book. Really delves into their family backgrounds, and provides a forensic level analysis of the days events, and the interviews of the boys


  • #418
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Hopefully someone else makes a documentary about all the children who grow up in extreme poverty and adversity, exposed to all sorts of horrific things, and yet somehow manage not to torment, torture and murder a small child and deviously attempt to cover up their crime.

    Maybe that would then help to uncover why those two done what they did?
    Brushing things under the carpet as being evil prevents the analysis of what actually made them do such a thing.

    Do they not produce oxytocin - is it a chemical imbalance, is it an upbringing issue, what is it?

    I don't think there is anything such as evil - there is something in the composition of people that makes them this way and to be so blasé about it prevents the uncovering of what is going on inside these people.

    In regards to the movie, I've not seen it, so cannot comment on it specifically. However, there are numerous movies based on real life events that have been released whilst the relevant parties were still alive.


  • #419
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    gerrybbadd wrote: »
    Try reading The Sleep of Reason by David James Smith. If anything paints the 2 lads in a sympathetic light, it's this book. Really delves into their family backgrounds, and provides a forensic level analysis of the days events, and the interviews of the boys

    I think his closeness to the families of the perpetrators made the book somewhat biased towards painting them as innocent as possible. He says in the book he keeps in touch with one of the families.

    The problem with the superficial analysis is it has a sample of one for each boy. If he had interviewed families of other boys who had similar upbringings, experiences and circumstances he might be able to say these influence behaviour. Taking it as fact that factors and experiences a, b and c led directly to z based on a single sample is ridiculous.


  • #420
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Well, it's now officially nominated

    Not sure how I feel about it. I'm so sorry for Jamie's mum and dad but there's half of me thinks they shouldn't have the right to prevent anyone making / watching a movie about this. I'm torn!

    They should've been made aware of it, but they don't have the right to say it shouldn't be made. Despite what they did, two 10-year-old boys had their faces across every newspaper in the United Kingdom, under the headline 'Freaks of nature'. There is undeniably an ethical question to ask and frankly the story is a lot bigger than the parents of the victim.


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  • #421
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    They were 10. I never understood how they tried them as adults. What was the reason for that?


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