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The story of what led bobby sands to join the IRA

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jack923 wrote: »
    And also please don't forget that peaceful means were attempted first, civil rights marches and such were attempted but we're beaten off the streets by police and loyalists. The IRA decided that peaceful means would be best but when that didn't work they brought back their military campaign but was strictly defensive I believe they started their offensive campaign in 1972.

    And what was the result of their military campaign?


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    #63
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    bubblypop wrote: »
    And what was the result of their military campaign?

    Too hard to say


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    #64
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    Too hard to say

    Same as previous IRA campaigns, for example the 1956-1962 IRA campaign.

    Interesting to note that in the 1940's, and during the 1956-1962 campaign, hundreds of extremist Republicans were interned on both sides of the border, by both governments. Some IRA men even went on hunger strike in the 1940's here in prison in the Republic and died.
    jack923 wrote: »
    As I said it's quite easy to look at history and say this is what should have happened but the people at that time don't know that and don't forget 1916 was very recent history there is no doubt they were inspired by that.
    I bet you were also inspired by one side of the story and never heard the other side.


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    #65
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    maryishere wrote: »
    I bet you were also inspired by one side of the story and never heard the other side.

    I bet you, like I, was lucky enough not to be born into the Troubles on either side in Northern Ireland?


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    #66
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    jack923 wrote: »
    Of course not, you know.... in a war you usually don't give the enemy a choice in the matter

    kids out shopping with their mothers ? big brave men all right.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zaph wrote: »
    You do realise to most normal, decent people it doesn't matter a damn whether it was the IRA or the INLA or whoever the hell else was at it that were responsible for any given act of violence. Murder is murder, everything else is just details.

    Its easy to ride the high horse of moral sensibility growing up in your safe house in Dublin, having never faced discrimination on a daily basis by a state who's sole purpose was to look after one section of society only and to diminish the rights of the other side. Never had family members harassed and assaulted at the hands of what were supposed to be the police force of fair law and never were burned out of their homes by loyalist mobs who wanted to banish Irish Catholics, Nationalists and Republicans from the face of the planet.

    Most men of violence were a product of their environment and if a state treats sections of a society with utter contempt then why is any body with a rational brain surprised that the result is violence and misery?


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    #68
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Its easy to ride the high horse of moral sensibility growing up in your safe house in Dublin, having never faced discrimination on a daily basis by a state who's sole purpose was to look after one section of society only and to diminish the rights of the other side. Never had family members harassed and assaulted at the hands of what were supposed to be the police force of fair law and never were burned out of their homes by loyalist mobs who wanted to banish Irish Catholics, Nationalists and Republicans from the face of the planet.

    Most men of violence were a product of their environment and if a state treats sections of a society with utter contempt then why is any body with a rational brain surprised that the result is violence and misery?

    Plenty of Catholics up north experienced exactly that and far worse, they still didn't join the cowardly terrorist scum that is the 'IRA' and get their rocks off murdering and terrorising women and kids.


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    #69
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Plenty of Catholics up north experienced exactly that and far worse.

    And they did nothing


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Plenty of Catholics up north experienced exactly that and far worse, they still didn't join the cowardly terrorist scum that is the 'IRA' and get their rocks off murdering and terrorising women and kids.

    They started Civil Rights movement to address the inequality when it came to jobs, inability to vote, social housing, gerrymandering where voting was possible, but the civil rights movement was ignored and derided by the unionist state, and literally resulted in a loss of rights (right to peaceful protest etc)

    A state which cannot facilitate peaceful protest has to expect violent resistance.


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    #71
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They started Civil Rights movement to address the inequality when it came to jobs, inability to vote, social housing, gerrymandering where voting was possible, but the civil rights movement was ignored and derided by the unionist state, and literally resulted in a loss of rights (right to peaceful protest etc)

    And plenty of people on those marches did not turn to killing women and kids.


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    #72
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Jesus. wrote: »
    And they did nothing

    The people who actually brought peace to NI were those who did not resort to violence.


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    #73
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Sure it is. That great philosopher Baroness Thatcher expounded that one.

    Thatcher you say.

    Isn't she the one who let a fellow MP starve to death rather than let him wear his own clothes?


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    #74
    FrKurtFahrt
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭FrKurtFahrt


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    The people who actually brought peace to NI were those who did not resort to violence.

    Nonsense! There were many people who had served time for violence (on both sides) and haved subsequently been involved in the peace talks, and indeed many are still sitting in Stormont.


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    #75
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    FrKurtFahrt wrote: »
    Nonsense! There were many people who had served time for violence (on both sides) and haved subsequently been involved in the peace talks, and indeed many are still sitting in Stormont.

    Peace, not killing women and kids like they used to you mean ?


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    #76
    FrKurtFahrt
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭FrKurtFahrt


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Peace, not killing women and kids like they used to you mean ?

    You've lost me


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    #77
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    pablo128 wrote: »
    Thatcher you say.

    Isn't she the one who let a fellow MP starve to death rather than let him wear his own clothes?

    Bit more to it than that.

    Sands and the other prisoners wanted to be treated like prisoners of war instead of the criminals they were.


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    #78
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    The people who actually brought peace to NI were those who did not resort to violence.

    So how much would you be willing to take? If they came in and gang-raped your mother in front of you when you were a kid, would you stand up for yourself? I'm just trying to find out where your line is. How far would you have to be demeaned before you hit back at your tormentors?


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    #79
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    And plenty of people on those marches did not turn to killing women and kids.
    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Peace, not killing women and kids like they used to you mean ?

    You have a thing about women and children.


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    #80
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Yet another thread from the OP that would better belong in the AH forum or, better still, being closed.

    ****



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    #81
    cournioni
    Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Jesus. wrote: »
    There is..............................in Iran
    It's actually in Northern Iran. Geddit?! ;)


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    #82
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Sands and the other prisoners wanted to be treated like prisoners of war instead of the criminals they were.

    They had the choice to eat or not. They had the choice to live or not. A choice that was not given to the victims of the IRA.

    Some IRA men went on hunger strike in southern prisons here in the 1940's and Dev let them starve to death. This state has no great record of treating minorities either. The Jews were not treated well here. There were only three protestants in the whole of the Gardai in the 1970's. The Roman Catholic Church abused its powers, covered up child abuse in its ranks, the magdalene laundries scandals and called from the pulpit for the boycott of protestant businesses in Fethard on sea, Co. Wexford. It was a cold house for minorities south of the border as it was north of the border. Still no reason or excuse to resort to terrorism...that only makes things worse and in time gets a response.


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    #83
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Jesus. wrote: »
    So how much would you be willing to take? If they came in and gang-raped your mother in front of you when you were a kid, would you stand up for yourself? I'm just trying to find out where your line is. How far would you have to be demeaned before you hit back at your tormentors?

    It's understandable...that didn't make it right, far from it.

    Their actions were still mistakes, very predictable mistakes. It was selfish to act as they did and cause others to pay for their own sense of self-satisfaction.


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    #84
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    kids out shopping with their mothers ? big brave men all right.

    You can't use that old chest nut, you can say the same for the British army, US army, Russian Army, French army pretty much every army so....


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    #85
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    It's understandable...that didn't make it right, far from it.

    Their actions were still mistakes, very predictable mistakes. It was selfish to act as they did and cause others to pay for their own sense of self-satisfaction.

    What mistakes are you talking about? In general or certain incidents? It's easy to take the gandhi route now with a perfect life in dublin.


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    #86
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    You can't use that old chest nut, you can say the same for the British army, US army, Russian Army, French army pretty much every army so....
    The British army, US army, Russian Army, French army etc are and were the armies of a state. In the case of the British army, US army, French army etc a state which had free elections, democracy etc. The British army actually is well respected, even by its enemies, as having a sense of fairness second to none, and did not rape / commit atrocities or human rights violations to any great extent during ww2 on anything unlike the Russians, Germans or Japanese.
    The PIRA was a terrorist organisation, not an army or armed forces of a state.
    In fact the PIRA murdered people in this state, inc Gardai, a soldier and a politician, and committed many other crimes inc robberies.
    jack923 wrote: »
    What mistakes are you talking about?

    All of the IRA campaigns.


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    #87
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Bit more to it than that.

    Sands and the other prisoners wanted to be treated like prisoners of war instead of the criminals they were.

    Well they got their wish in the end, didn't they? They eventually were treated like the POWs that they were.


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    #88
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Even before they went on hunger strike they got better treatment that most prisoners of war ever did. Certainly they got better treatment than their victims, many of who got blown up, maimed etc.


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    #89
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    maryishere wrote: »
    The British army, US army, Russian Army, French army etc are and were the armies of a state. In the case of the British army, US army, French army etc a state which had free elections, democracy etc. The British army actually is well respected, even by its enemies, as having a sense of fairness second to none, and did not rape / commit atrocities or human rights violations to any great extent during ww2 on anything unlike the Russians, Germans or Japanese.
    The PIRA was a terrorist organisation, not an army or armed forces of a state.
    In fact the PIRA murdered people in this state, inc Gardai, a soldier and a politician, and committed many other crimes inc robberies.



    All of the IRA campaigns.

    The IRA were a organisation which tried to free northern Ireland from foreign occupation and oppression, catholics in northern Ireland were denied equal rights by the state.

    The IRA were at war with the state of course they weren't able to vote on it. There is no difference between state terrorism and IRA terrorism, 1916 also falls into the category you mentioned it doesn't make it wrong.

    We are talking about wether in this case that fighting against the state was justified or not, 6 counties were being held in this country against the will of the people of Ireland.


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    #90
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    The IRA were a organisation which tried to free northern Ireland from foreign occupation and oppression.
    Well it obviously failed, because despite murdering thousands, injuring tens of thousands, being responsible (along with the INLA) for 99% of the bombings / property destroyed, its leaders are in government helping administer the same foreign occupation and oppression. Terrible thing that foreign occupation and oppression. Did you know that despite being allowed a choice of passports, as many Northern Catholics have chosen to have a UK one as an Irish one?


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    #91
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Jesus. wrote: »
    You have a thing about women and children.

    No, the IRA had a thing about murdering them


This discussion has been closed.
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