The Irish famine?

Jesus. · 30-12-2014 9:19pm

DecStone wrote: »

I'm not making that assertion. I began this by saying that your dismissal of it all is the issue. You dismiss something out of hand with a 'LOL' quip without having any evidence to the contrary..

I must say that I do find Freddie has a bit of a cheek. He's an Englishman living in Ireland (or so he says) yet is happy to bitch and moan about an Irish town and its populace regarding a particular part of their traditions.

If I was him, rather than dig up the history of the famine (with the sole qualification of his "side's" role being that Q Vicky gave a couple of grand to the starving millions :rolleyes:), Drogheda and every other inglorious piece of Irish history where those whom he defends were involved, he and his fantasy-living sidekick Pedro would be better served consuming a large slice of humble pie and not make himself look like such an outdated eejit from a bygone era constantly trying to justify the unjustifiable past savagery in the modern age.

Time to resign the Bugle and the "Tally-Ho" to the history books Frederick. Your inglorious conquests have been caught up with by history and they're being picked apart in all their grotesqueness for all the World to see

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 10:27pm

Jesus. wrote: »

I must say that I do find Freddie has a bit of a cheek. He's an Englishman living in Ireland (or so he says) yet is happy to bitch and moan about an Irish town and its populace regarding a particular part of their traditions.

If I was him, rather than dig up the history of the famine (with the sole qualification of his "side's" role being that Q Vicky gave a couple of grand to the starving millions :rolleyes:), Drogheda and every other inglorious piece of Irish history where those whom he defends were involved, he and his fantasy-living sidekick Pedro would be better served consuming a large slice of humble pie and not make himself look like such an outdated eejit from a bygone era constantly trying to justify the unjustifiable past savagery in the modern age.

Time to resign the Bugle and the "Tally-Ho" to the history books Frederick. Your inglorious conquests have been caught up with by history and they're being picked apart in all their grotesqueness for all the World to see

If all else fails, resort to nationality.

You keep kidding yourself if you like Jesus, you don't add anything here other than petty name calling when you don't like what is being said.

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 10:42pm

DecStone wrote: »

No, you're the self proclaimed expert here as evidenced by your dismissive response that I first pointed out to you. I answered that the origins of the crest are uncertain and therefore shouldn't be dismissed so out of hand. You had added nothing to the poster's long response expect to ridicule it with "LOL". Nothing helpful there.

I also gave Christine Kinealy as a source for the 'possibility' [note the word] of the ships landing at Drogheda. Her work on shipping during the period has added much to the discussion on the Famine experience. She has done work on other ships coming from the United States into Ireland which were delayed or diverted by the British authorities because of what she termed "the labyrinth of bureaucracy attached to the public works" so much so that their attempt at bringing aid proved almost useless to the Famine victims.

Christine Kinnealy is excellent, but to use her as justification for the fairy tale surrounding the Drogheda coat of arms or the tale that goes with it is crass in the extreme.

Was there bureaucracy preventing ships landing? I don't doubt it, but the story tells of a deliberate blockade by the royal navy. Somewhat different stories I would say.

If the town adopted the Sultan's flag, why is the crescent at 90 degrees to the one on the ottoman flag? Why does it have a blue background? Why keep the three lions? the whole story of this special relationship between Drogheda and trabvonspor amounts to one game scheduled to be played, coincidentally, when an Irish tv station launched in Turkey.

How pointing out this reality is somehow considered an insult to Drogheda I don't know, all I can suggest is that the truth sometimes hurts.

Jesus. · 30-12-2014 11:34pm

I'm beginning to wonder if you're really from England at all, Freddie. I've never come across an Englishman with such entrenched head-in-the-sand views before.

You sure you're not from Northern Ireland????????

pedroeibar1 · 30-12-2014 11:45pm

Jesus. wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if you're really from England at all, Freddie. I've never come across an Englishman with such entrenched head-in-the-sand views before.

You sure you're not from Northern Ireland????????

Jesus. wrote: »

I must say that I do find Freddie has a bit of a cheek. He's an Englishman living in Ireland (or so he says) yet is happy to bitch and moan about an Irish town and its populace regarding a particular part of their traditions.

If I was him, rather than dig up the history of the famine (with the sole qualification of his "side's" role being that Q Vicky gave a couple of grand to the starving millions Drogheda and every other inglorious piece of Irish history where those whom he defends were involved, he and his fantasy-living sidekick Pedro would be better served consuming a large slice of humble pie and not make himself look like such an outdated eejit from a bygone era constantly trying to justify the unjustifiable past savagery in the modern age.

Time to resign the Bugle and the "Tally-Ho" to the history books Frederick. Your inglorious conquests have been caught up with by history and they're being picked apart in all their grotesqueness for all the World to see

The above post is ad hominem, trolling, childish and ignorant. I know it is Christmas, but what are the Mods doing when they allow that type of post, along with those by poster Andrew Purfield (e.g. #105) and yet jump on others with rather nasty comments?

Anybody with an ounce of interest in history would (and easily could) research the Arms of Drogheda and the story behind them instead of spouting the s#ite recently seen and exemplified by the above post. The crescent is not the ‘Arms’, it is the crest, (which forms part of the arms) and it lies on the wreath or mantling. It is taken from the arms of King John who presented Drogheda with its first charter in 1210. The star is an eight pointed star between the two ends of a crescent moon. They also appear in this fashion on all the triangular coins of John struck in this country, and (as pointed out by Fred) also appear in sculpture over the thrones in St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, which were erected during his Lordship of Ireland. The crest has nothing to do with Turkey.

The shield shows a crenelled gate, with battlements and loopholes, of two towers surmounted by red pennants. The portcullis is lowered, signifying the security of the walled town. On the right side of the gate a ship sails, with St George’s ensign displayed on the stern. This represents the trade with England that supported the town from its earliest times. To the left of the gate are the three lions of England.

DecStone is also backpedalling on his remarks in relation to C Kinealy – what he said was ……….

regarding Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid is actually from recent work of Christine Kinealy who had done much good research on the Famine.

so his recent comments are totally incorrect and out of context. Decstone might learn a bit more about the Famine if he actually read some of Kinealy’s work, like for example her comment (in a Famine article in History Ireland) on the British Government

In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly.

And, for what it is worth the are other heraldic arguments as to why it was King Johm, as the crescent is a mark of cadency that ‘fits’ with him.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 12:11am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The above post is ad hominem, trolling, childish and ignorant. I know it is Christmas, but what are the Mods doing when they allow that type of post, along with those by poster Andrew Purfield (e.g. #105) and yet jump on others with rather nasty comments?

Oh don't be such a bloody crybaby. Go tell the teacher on the bold boys, eh? :rolleyes:

It was Freddie and your good self who took the tone of this conversation down to a childish ignorant level with replies like "LOL" and this little gem:

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

What did you expect? Anyone who does a "cut & paste" from Wikipedia, (with more from a rabid Irish American site) and regards Coogan's book on the Famine as authoritative, really needs help!:D:D

If you can't conduct yourself in an adult manner then you can't complain when someone pulls you up on it.

Your British/loyalist propaganda has been dismantled and you're riled. Get used to it compadre.

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 11:55am

Jesus. wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if you're really from England at all, Freddie. I've never come across an Englishman with such entrenched head-in-the-sand views before.

You sure you're not from Northern Ireland????????

Entrenched head in the sand views? Seriously?

People know full well the entire Drogheda - Turkish thing is bull**** and refuse to admit it, but I'm the one with my head in the sand?

pedroeibar1 · 31-12-2014 1:16pm

Jesus. wrote: »

If you can't conduct yourself in an adult manner then you can't complain when someone pulls you up on it.

Your British/loyalist propaganda has been dismantled and you're riled. Get used to it compadre.

Naw, Jesus, what you’ve written is not worth bothering about. It is just a continuous ill-informed rant woven around a tale of the nasty Brits and their Queen. Other than invective, platitudes and hearsay your contribution has added not one item of merit to the topic. Empty noise, insults and waffle. A view supported by your acceptance of a “cut & paste” from Wiki as a “source”. Contemptible, even at school homework level.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 1:40pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Entrenched head in the sand views? Seriously?

People know full well the entire Drogheda - Turkish thing is bull**** and refuse to admit it, but I'm the one with my head in the sand?

Not talking about Drogheda Freddie, I'm talking about everything else you talk about. But seeing as you mention Drogheda, why would an Englishman living in Ireland be so outspoken about whether or not a supply ship docked in Drogheda during the Famine? Would your time not be better served coming to terms with the British establishment's gross wrongdoings in many Countries down the years rather than nitpicking about a subject that's really an irrelevance?

Are you really from England Fred?

DecStone · 31-12-2014 2:38pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

DecStone is also backpedalling on his remarks in relation to C Kinealy – what he said was ………. so his recent comments are totally incorrect and out of context. Decstone might learn a bit more about the Famine if he actually read some of Kinealy’s work, like for example her comment (in a Famine article in History Ireland) on the British Government

There is no backpedalling going on with me. I have read most of Kinsealy's work on the Famine - including her more recent work - and as I pointed out in a previous post:

"Christine Kinealy mentions it a number of times in her work and says that while there is no documented proof of the blockage there is some anecdotal evidence that ships were blocked from landing at Cork and Dublin"

You are using another, separate comment that she made in order to conflate the issue at hand. And for what end? I don't know or understand what is at stake here with you and Fred but historic truth doesn't seem to be paramount in your efforts. Reading over your posts there is much opinion, passion but very light on historic facts. Your obvious bias - Fred has actually stated his bias on a number of occasions - is blinding you to any rational discussion which might lead you to historic validity.

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 2:54pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Not talking about Drogheda Freddie, I'm talking about everything else you talk about. But seeing as you mention Drogheda, why would an Englishman living in Ireland be so outspoken about whether or not a supply ship docked in Drogheda during the Famine? Would your time not be better served coming to terms with the British establishment's gross wrongdoings in many Countries down the years rather than nitpicking about a subject that's really an irrelevance?

Are you really from England Fred?

Aah, the old "i don't like what you say, so I'll call you a west brit/loyalist/Stockholm syndrome sufferer. Where I am from is irrelevant, but you can read my posting history and make up your own mind.

This thread is about the famine. The poster that resurrected it asked why I claimed it is used as a weapon or a rallying call. Drogheda is the perfect example of this.

Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 3:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Where I am from is irrelevant

Its not irrelevant. There is an obvious bias attached to everything you write which seeks to discount the facts in favour of a very diluted fanciful (British nationalist?) narrative.

Just be honest man, where are you from?

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 4:52pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Its not irrelevant. There is an obvious bias attached to everything you write which seeks to discount the facts in favour of a very diluted fanciful (British nationalist?) narrative.

Just be honest man, where are you from?

As I said, you can read my history if you like, it shows pretty conclusively that I am English.

I deliberately post with an English nationalist slant to play devil's advocate, but that is irrelevant to any of my points. They remain valid. When it comes to Irish history, anyone who doesn't accept the republican narrative is written off as a west brit any way.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 5:01pm

There's republican narratives and then there's imperialist British narratives Freddie lad. Neither are conducive to the truth. You are very much on the latter side of the scale and have no compunction in giving it large despite living in Ireland! Whatever you want Freddie, just as long as you're not hoping to win any popularity contests

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 5:52pm

Jesus. wrote: »

There's republican narratives and then there's imperialist British narratives Freddie lad. Neither are conducive to the truth. You are very much on the latter side of the scale and have no compunction in giving it large despite living in Ireland! Whatever you want Freddie, just as long as you're not hoping to win any popularity contests

There is no British imperialist narrative. The British haven't made an industry out of exploiting the famine for political purposes.

Jesus. · 01-01-2015 3:01am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no British imperialist narrative. The British haven't made an industry out of exploiting the famine for political purposes.

To which "industry" do you refer? I think I missed that one

eire4 · 01-01-2015 10:49pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the old "i don't like what you say, so I'll call you a west brit/loyalist/Stockholm syndrome sufferer. Where I am from is irrelevant, but you can read my posting history and make up your own mind.

This thread is about the famine. The poster that resurrected it asked why I claimed it is used as a weapon or a rallying call. Drogheda is the perfect example of this.

Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

Being the person who got this thread going again I have consistently been clear that my support for the recent introduction of the National Famine Memorial Day and support for the changing of that days current status to being on a set date and to be made a national holiday was based on the belief that given the immense nature of this traumatic event in our history it was very important that we paid our respects and remembered.

To hate is easy to forgive much more difficult. But as I mentioned I feel that a National Famine Memorial Day could be part of the healing process both within the island of Ireland and between Ireland and Britain. There will always be haters but I think I am on safe ground in saying that the majority of people on the island of Ireland would like to see a true and deep healing on our island.

Sadly I sense much hate when I read your posts.That is of course your right. For me remembering the famine and support for the National Famine Memorial Day and making it a national holiday is simply about paying our respects and remembering such an immense trauma in our history.

Jesus. · 01-01-2015 11:30pm

eire4 wrote: »

Sadly I sense much hate when I read your posts.

Unfortunately I'm starting to sense that myself being honest.

Fratton Fred · 02-01-2015 10:15am

eire4 wrote: »

Being the person who got this thread going again I have consistently been clear that my support for the recent introduction of the National Famine Memorial Day and support for the changing of that days current status to being on a set date and to be made a national holiday was based on the belief that given the immense nature of this traumatic event in our history it was very important that we paid our respects and remembered.

To hate is easy to forgive much more difficult. But as I mentioned I feel that a National Famine Memorial Day could be part of the healing process both within the island of Ireland and between Ireland and Britain. There will always be haters but I think I am on safe ground in saying that the majority of people on the island of Ireland would like to see a true and deep healing on our island.

Sadly I sense much hate when I read your posts.That is of course your right. For me remembering the famine and support for the National Famine Memorial Day and making it a national holiday is simply about paying our respects and remembering such an immense trauma in our history.

You are looking for hate, because you want there to be some, but there is none.

ChicagoJoe · 02-01-2015 11:51am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no British imperialist narrative. The British haven't made an industry out of exploiting the famine for political purposes.

No they rely on the poppy industry instead while our unionist friends of course have thousands of drunken, sectarian marches all summer long to commemorate the 'twalfth' :rolleyes:. Doesn't it say it all how the Brits have a Holocaust day for the Jews killed in WW2 by the Germans but nothing for the millions murdered by the British empire such as in Ireland, India , the concentration camp victims of the Boer war etc.

Fratton Fred · 02-01-2015 1:12pm

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

No they rely on the poppy industry instead while our unionist friends of course have thousands of drunken, sectarian marches all summer long to commemorate the 'twalfth' :rolleyes:. Doesn't it say it all how the Brits have a Holocaust day for the Jews killed in WW2 by the Germans but nothing for the millions murdered by the British empire such as in Ireland, India , the concentration camp victims of the Boer war etc.

Joe, you have serious issues you need to address.

Jesus. · 02-01-2015 1:16pm

Freddie, what is this "industry" of famine exploitation you're banging on about?

Be honest now, you made that up didn't ye?

eire4 · 03-01-2015 7:07am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You are looking for hate, because you want there to be some, but there is none.

So you say the tone of your posts however suggest otherwise.

As for what I am looking for I suggest you take a read of my own posts again as they clearly state my preference for healing and forgiveness within Ireland and between Ireland and Britain. Again to hate is easy to forgive much more difficult but in my opinion the better path.

Hunter gatherer · 08-01-2015 2:44pm

This new program called 'Hunger' is stirring up some divisive opinion before it has even been aired. Much like here.

Markcheese · 08-01-2015 2:49pm

Hunter gatherer wrote: »

This new program called 'Hunger' is stirring up some divisive opinion before it has even been aired. Much like here.

Yup -my first reaction was hooold on there, but then think black adder goes forth - or the Italian film "life is beautiful " (beautiful,funny film) about the holocaust - so if hunger is crap I just won't watch it -

Hunter gatherer · 08-01-2015 3:59pm

I agree. People have gotten their backs up because it is being called a comedy. Others say that many comedies have been made with tragic events as the setting or place. Black Adder as you say.

I think what many people are irritated about is that it is being commissioned by a broadcaster in the UK. Though I believe the writer himself is Irish. I could be wrong there.

If it is in poor taste people can choose not to watch it. I don't think we have any right to say it can't be made. We don't hold the rights to that.

Andrew Purfield · 08-01-2015 8:43pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the old "i don't like what you say, so I'll call you a west brit/loyalist/Stockholm syndrome sufferer. Where I am from is irrelevant, but you can read my posting history and make up your own mind.

This thread is about the famine. The poster that resurrected it asked why I claimed it is used as a weapon or a rallying call. Drogheda is the perfect example of this.

Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

I am not going to go bother engaging in people's nationalities or their Lol's and will stick to the matter at hand.

It has already been factually stated by Kinealy, Coogan(Ireland's most renowned historian on several periods in modern Irish History despite another poster's bizarre rant over his competence) and others in recent years that many ships were turned away from landing in Cork and Dublin during this time. We know equally that some North American ships were blocked from landing relief on the western seaboard.

Here is a link to an article focusing on recent research and evidence brought to light by Drogheda's undisputed leading historian Brendan Matthews.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/turkish-boats-did-sail-up-the-boyne-27166766.html

Though going on your affinity for British history maybe you'd prefer our less celebrated Tom O' Reilly. That other unhistorical windbag is currently leading the crusade for the rehabilitation of Cromwell.

People can be as petty as they want but to dismiss the possible, indeed as Matthews calls it, the 'probable' with things like LOL to Drogheda people and Irish people who have actually read the historians and researchers work above is patent idiocy, indeed I would say eegitry for it holds idiocy in contempt. Aside from a few newspaper articles, yourself and your aide de camp have quoted few historians. This article at least directly interacts with a prime local researcher and thus points the reader towards his reliable sources, publications of the very same Brendan Matthews, or as we call him in his native East Meath 'Matthesis'.

Indeed Matthews has since released a book on the very subject http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/localnotes/matthews-uncovers-more-proof-about-aid-from-ottoman-empire-28834868.html

Before anybody dismisses somebody else's history they should educate themselves.

By the way Brendan Matthews was the leading historical skeptic of such ships arriving down the years. His recent evidence based discoveries, which his book Drogheda and the Turkish Famine ships of 1847 details, has meant a complete U-Turn for him factually and it is not like such academic books are sold for the money(very little profit in his line of work).

You can buy the book in the town. That's for anybody who's actually bothered their hole visiting my hometown.

Andrew Purfield · 08-01-2015 8:51pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I said, you can read my history if you like, it shows pretty conclusively that I am English.

I deliberately post with an English nationalist slant to play devil's advocate, but that is irrelevant to any of my points. They remain valid. When it comes to Irish history, anyone who doesn't accept the republican narrative is written off as a west brit any way.

What is so wrong with Republicanism anyways while we're on the subject?

A lot of posters on here including myself would have had ancestors evicted during the Famine btw and we remember what the British narrative was, is and forever shall remain!

The redundant servant on a plot leased by my ancestors held a stick of bread up as in to say 'This too', so we should make no apologies for trying to find dignity and justice in commemorating the dead factually. The modest numbers of dead confirmed by Pat Coogan's work are at least 1.9 million. The numbers emigrated also close to 2 million. The population dropped from nearly 9 million to well under 4 million. Coogan himself states his figures are the recorded figures and the death toll and emigration toll must have been higher given census figures. Indeed many people died during and not long after Emigration anyways. That's why they were called Coffin Ships.

A popular Derry Phrase for Bull is 'And One Million Emigrated'. I won't even comment on what the British written history likes to paint the death toll as.

I have not seen any poster on the 10 pages of this thread use the Famine for particularly nationalist sentiment.

But while we are on the subject of historical, or rather unhistorical, narratives these are not restricted to so called Shinnerbots. Minimising the actual effects of the Famine, calling people who wish to record the generosity of the less barbaric Empires of the time, blaming everything on Irish middlemen and next to nothing on their Feudal masters(indeed praising soup kitchens in 1847 FFS and an insulting donation by an ignorant monarch who requested another head of State did not donate a penny more than her miserable self less too many Paddies be spared) are common features displayed by several posters such as yourself, JRG and Pedro as well as 1 or 2 others throughout this discussion.

Our Family's Eviction, like the Turkish ships which were not recorded as Turkish but as foreign in the ship logs due to Britain's desire to not only starve the Irish while exporting all food but blocking imported food at that, wasn't written down anywhere of note either though so I suppose it never happened.

Like I said you only know what you learnt in school, wherever that was, and by your own admission it was a 5 minute coverage of 'The Potato Famine' as a sort of long term provocation against British rule in Ireland.

Now we have this other Gobshyte coming out with a comedy on Channel four about it. And people wonder why 'Republicans' get upset.

We basically have 4-5 posters on here looking to blame the famine on the Irish themselves because later generations used the memory to kick the Brits out of the 26 counties and cos it's a traumatic national memory that Shinners supposedly use for propaganda(cos no English nationalism is used for propaganda and Cromwell does not have a statue outside Westminster at all at all at all).

Andrew Purfield · 08-01-2015 9:20pm

Hunter gatherer wrote: »

I agree. People have gotten their backs up because it is being called a comedy. Others say that many comedies have been made with tragic events as the setting or place. Black Adder as you say.

I think what many people are irritated about is that it is being commissioned by a broadcaster in the UK. Though I believe the writer himself is Irish. I could be wrong there.

If it is in poor taste people can choose not to watch it. I don't think we have any right to say it can't be made. We don't hold the rights to that.

The difference is many within the British public as evidenced on this thread think it was a Potato Famine where only a million died and emigrated(sure the other 3 million never existed!!).

Anything from 2-4 million people died. Coogan puts a conservative estimate at 1.9-2.1 million going on what figures he could find. The conservatively factual minimum he gives is twice that we are spoonfed.

It was genocide pure and simple.

British people understand ww1 cos their ancestors lived through it. They do not all understand exactly what Britain did in Ireland in that murderous decade, not to mind previously. Cromwell is revered in Republican and academic circles in South England and has a statue outside Parliament Buildings.

Poppy day/season more like and the attitude to the British Army basically sum up what current attitudes to the history of Empire there are.

Fratton Fred · 08-01-2015 9:27pm

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

It was genocide pure and simple.

British people understand ww1 cos their ancestors lived through it. They do not all understand exactly what Britain did in Ireland in that murderous decade, not to mind previously. Cromwell is revered in Republican and academic circles in South England and has a statue outside Parliament Buildings.

Poppy day/season more like and the attitude to the British Army basically sum up what current attitudes to the history of Empire there are.

That sums up your rant nicely.

I must dig up that podcast where a history lecturer handed TPC his arse regarding his last book.

He isn't a historian, by the way, he is an author who writes books on a certain type of history, for a certain audience.

The Irish famine?

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