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    #1982
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭droidman123


    janfebmar wrote: »
    What articles? Articles written by the type of people who constantly whinge about British oppression? Churchill was not perfect but he had a vast amount of people of different nationalities from many, many countries around the world who served in his forces, and many of who paid the ultimate price in the defeat of the Axis powers. Respect.

    Ok this is the last time i will ask,what do you think of those articles?


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    #1983
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I agree Jan and there are many other close connections between Britain and Ireland -two of Britain`s military leaders-The Duke of Wellington and Kitchener were Irish and was`nt pearse`s father English?

    Throughout the generations there have been plenty of good Irish people, but unfortunately it was the bad Irish who often made the headlines.


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    #1984
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    No politician (or person) is perfect. Churchill had some great help during the war, his right hand man was an Irishman, Brendan B.

    And one of his top military men was a man from a few miles away from here in Cootehill, Co. Cavan who famously lectured Churchill on military matters. He later sued Churchill successfully, forcing him to tell the truth about an aspect of the war in Africa.
    Not only you guys want to improve Churchy's image, seems he was keen to do it himself.

    Eric Dorman Smith went on to train the IRA in his estate in Cootehill.

    What is your point about Brendan Bracken...don't you know his full name?


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    #1985
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    What articles? Articles written by the type of people who constantly whinge about British oppression? Churchill was not perfect but he had a vast amount of people of different nationalities from many, many countries around the world who served in his forces, and many of who paid the ultimate price in the defeat of the Axis powers. Respect.

    Collaborators everywhere...eh? :pac::pac:


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    #1986
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    I wonder when Francie's watching war movies, is he cheering on the Nazis?


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    #1987
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    droidman123 wrote: »
    Ok this is the last time i will ask,what do you think of those articles?

    The last time I will ask you, what articles? The people who wrote some of those articles I have sometimes read in the past about him are entitled to their opinions, but millions would not agree with the articles. Irish Republicans writing about even recent history in Ireland can give a very distorted view too.


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    #1988
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    I wonder when Francie's watching war movies, is he cheering on the Nazis?

    Nobody here has ever asked my opinion on the Nazi's Facehugger. Do I believe the Pinewood studios version of the war... :):) absolutely not, but some clearly do.


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    #1989
    PCeeeee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,465 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    janfebmar wrote: »
    What articles? Articles written by the type of people who constantly whinge about British oppression? Churchill was not perfect but he had a vast amount of people of different nationalities from many, many countries around the world who served in his forces, and many of who paid the ultimate price in the defeat of the Axis powers. Respect.

    Ah now, janfebmar Churchill's forces? As I'm sure you know they are at all times Her Majesty's Armed Forces.


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    #1990
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭droidman123


    Wellington was irish biolgically,but he certainly wasnt proud of it.wasnt it him who said,when asked about being born in dublin,"just because you are born in a stable doesnt mean you are a horse"


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    #1991
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Facehugger: 4 million people (Yes 4 million) in Bengal starved to death in a 2 year famine in 43-44. When questioned on why he was diverting food from there to the war effort, cuddly Winston said:
    Winston wrote:
    “starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks” and Indians were, in any case, “breeding like rabbits”.

    When did you and the 'vast majority' (whose recent ancestors experienced a similar, if less devastating famine while coincidentally under the same rulers) start believing this was a 'positive' in a man's career? Just wondering.


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    #1992
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    As I pointed out to you before Francie, the first dictionary definition of collaborator was something like;
    A person who works jointly on a project; an associate.

    Do pay attention.

    That's a 'partner' Jan.

    Even Russell's harshest biographers cannot point to any evidence that he held anti-Semitic views. So there is no evidence whatsoever that he was an 'associate' or 'collaborator' in that.
    He was just doing what over a 100 corporations of Britain's 'special friend' were doing...taking advantage of a situation for his own benefit.


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    #1993
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭droidman123


    janfebmar wrote: »
    The last time I will ask you, what articles? The people who wrote some of those articles I have sometimes read in the past about him are entitled to their opinions, but millions would not agree with the articles. Irish Republicans writing about even recent history in Ireland can give a very distorted view too.
    So you think all those articles about churchill earlier were written by republicans? You think they are all fake news? You think they are opinions and not facts?


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    #1994
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭droidman123


    https://medium.com/@write_12958/the-crimes-of-winston-churchill-c5e3ecb229b3

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-finest-hour-the-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html

    This is just two,i can post more if you like,theres even one on the bbc website


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    #1995
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    droidman123 wrote: »
    Wellington was irish biolgically,but he certainly wasnt proud of it.wasnt it him who said,when asked about being born in dublin,"just because you are born in a stable doesnt mean you are a horse"

    He regarded Ireland as being an integral part of the UK though. 40% of his soldiers in the Penninsular wars were Irish, and 30% of the soldiers under him at Waterloo were Irish.


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    #1996
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    He regarded Ireland as being an integral part of the UK though. 40% of his soldiers in the Penninsular wars were Irish, and 30% of the soldiers under him at Waterloo were Irish.

    Ever hear the term 'canon fodder' jan?


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    #1997
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    there is no evidence whatsoever that he was an 'associate' or 'collaborator' in that.

    He was a leader of an armed military force, the IRA. Granted they were not elected or did not represent any government, but they still at least saw themselves as a military force. They attempted to partner or work with another military force, the Nazis controlled armed forces of Germany, during WW2. Russell was not on a German sub for the fun of it when he passed away. Do you think Russell was trying to set up fuel supplies or food supplies for the Atlantic u-boat packs? How did the sub intend to land Russell back in to Ireland? What did the Germans want or get in return for possibly helping the IRA? Anyway, it was not Disney type joy rides, it was collaboration or attempted collaboration. The Germans were not giving giving free dinners for nothing. Ask some of the Irish merchant seamen POWs who were treated not so well by the Nazis.


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    #1998
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Statues of Churchill ....100,000 Irish people fought in the British war effort and generally I think they thought he was fine. I never heard any of them complaining about him anyway, and I knew a few quite well. He was elected by the British people, if they want to keep a statue of an elected Prime Minister that is ok with me, it is not my country or business.

    If it's not your Country or business, why is a statue that is not in Britain offensive to loyalists, and why is a statue in Ireland offensive to Jews?

    Personally, I don't get upset about statues. I take the viewpoint that I reserve contempt for people who earn it. Statues of them merely show that not everyone agrees with my opinion.

    So, I reserve the right to despise Trevelyan, and regard vast amounts of Churchill's "career" with contempt - but I'm not inclined to tell the British people that they aren't allowed their statues....

    It's interesting, however, that you avoided mentioning Trevelyan at all....

    See, some deeds just cannot be defended....


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    #1999
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭droidman123


    janfebmar wrote: »
    He regarded Ireland as being an integral part of the UK though. 40% of his soldiers in the Penninsular wars were Irish, and 30% of the soldiers under him at Waterloo were Irish.

    Please dont address any more of my points until you answer my previous question,thank you


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    #2000
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    He was a leader of an armed military force, the IRA. Granted they were not elected or did not represent any government, but they still at least saw themselves as a military force. They attempted to partner or work with another military force, the Nazis controlled armed forces of Germany, during WW2. Russell was not on a German sub for the fun of it when he passed away. Do you think Russell was trying to set up fuel supplies or food supplies for the Atlantic u-boat packs? How did the sub intend to land Russell back in to Ireland? What did the Germans want or get in return for possibly helping the IRA? Anyway, it was not Disney type joy rides, it was collaboration or attempted collaboration. The Germans were not giving giving free dinners for nothing. Ask some of the Irish merchant seamen POWs who were treated not so well by the Nazis.

    It was a man taking advantage for his own organisation's benefit. He and the state he was from were not and never were at war with Germany. He took from the Germans, he did not assist them in any way in what they were doing.

    Re-arming the Germans for financial gain was a collaborative act though, when you realise what they did with those arms...as was ignoring their arms build up in direct contravention of the Treaty Of Versailles.


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    #2001
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It was a man taking advantage for his own organisation's benefit.

    Hold on a second: was the organisation of which he was a leader working for its "own benefit" or for the benefit of Ireland as it saw it? Big difference Francie. You cannot claim it was only working for its own benefit that time and working for the cause of Ireland the rest of the time.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    He and the state he was from were not and never were at war with Germany.
    I never said they were, but numerous neutral countries were invaded by Nazi Germany during the war. You could argue the world was at war. By collaborating with them he was certainly not neutral.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    He took from the Germans, he did not assist them in any way in what they were doing.
    How do you know? Did you ask him? What did he take from the Germans? Did the Germans give anything away for free to anyone during the war? How do you know he did not assist them, or if Germany invaded Ireland, favours would not be called in in rounding up the Jews, homosexuals, disabled, gypsies, communists etc as happened elsewhere?

    droidman123 wrote: »
    Please dont address any more of my points until you answer my previous question,thank you

    Already answered.


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    #2002
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Hold on a second: was the organisation of which he was a leader working for its "own benefit" or for the benefit of Ireland as it saw it? Big difference Francie. You cannot claim it was only working for its own benefit that time and working for the cause of Ireland the rest of the time.
    The IRA of that time believed the Irish gov was a puppet of the British one. Historical fact you wish to ignore.

    I never said they were, but numerous neutral countries were invaded by Nazi Germany during the war. You could argue the world was at war. By collaborating with them he was certainly not neutral.
    He was not at war with Germany, he was at war with Britain. A 'collaborator' works with outside forces who are against his own people. As we were not at war with the Germans and they were not at war with us, he cannot fit the definition of a collaborator.

    How do you know? Did you ask him? What did he take from the Germans? Did the Germans give anything away for free to anyone during the war? How do you know he did not assist them, or if Germany invaded Ireland, favours would not be called in in rounding up the Jews, homosexuals, disabled, gypsies, communists etc as happened elsewhere?

    Nobody knows this. The evidence points to him using the enemy of his enemy to his advantage and the Germans doing likewise.


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    #2003
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The IRA of that time believed the Irish gov was a puppet of the British one.

    So they did not respect the democratic wishes of the people. Sounds familiar.



    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Yeah can you name any of those dev had executed?

    I’ll wait

    Of course. Patrick McGrath and Thomas Harte were the first 2 IRA men executed by firing squad. And Richard Goss and some other fellow called O'Neill, I forget his first name. All shot by Devalera firing squad. No big outcry either. I can name more too. Can you? I bet not. I'll wait.


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    #2004
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    He was not at war with Germany, he was at war with Britain.
    How could "he", one un-elected person be at war with a country?

    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A 'collaborator' works with outside forces who are against his own people.

    Britain was not against us in the early years of the war: it was trading with us, it was giving our shipping protection in convoys, it was employing some of our emigrants. And the first dictionary definition of collaborator is a lot different to your definition.


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    #2005
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    How could "he", one un-elected person be at war with a country?

    Oh god, you are going to get pedantic now? :rolleyes:
    Britain was not against us in the early years of the war: it was trading with us, it was giving our shipping protection in convoys, it was employing some of our emigrants. And the first dictionary definition of collaborator is a lot different to your definition.

    The IRA were not 'Us'. Ireland did not erect an obscure statue in an obscure part of a small Dublin park to Russell. You really need to stop the Irish Bad, British Good juvenile stuff Jan.


    The definition of a 'collaborator'
    Number one being a descriptor of somebody who collaborates on a project etc and Number 2, the one that concerns us here:

    1.
    a person who works jointly on an activity or project; an associate.
    "his collaborator on the book"
    synonyms: co-worker, fellow worker, associate, colleague, partner, co-partner, confederate, ally, teammate; More
    2.
    a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector.
    "he was a collaborator during the occupation"

    GERMANY WAS NOT OUR ENEMY JANFEBMAR...we were not at war with them.

    Explain how Russell was a collaborator?


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    #2006
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Oh god, you are going to get pedantic now? :rolleyes:
    Not pedantic. Again I ask: How could "he", one un-elected person be at war with a country?
    Maybe the same way as those involved in the plane attacks of 9/11 were "at war with America"?



    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The IRA were not 'Us'.

    You can say that again. I never said or suggested they were "us".

    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Ireland did not erect an obscure statue in an obscure part of a small Dublin park to Russell.

    I never said Ireland did that. However it allowed a statue, the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe, to be erected. Something that has outraged the largest Jewish victims organisation in the world.

    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You really need to stop the Irish Bad, British Good juvenile stuff Jan.
    On on the contrary, most Irish are good, very good. I said that earlier. You really need to stop demonising people because they are not unrepentant extremist Irish Republicans.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The definition of a 'collaborator'
    Number one being a descriptor of somebody who collaborates on a project etc and Number 2, the one that concerns us here:

    1.
    a person who works jointly on an activity or project; an associate.
    "his collaborator on the book"
    synonyms: co-worker, fellow worker, associate, colleague, partner, co-partner, confederate, ally, teammate; More

    And those military men who join forces and sail together in a war vessel (submarine) on active service during a time of war can indeed be called collaborators.


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    #2007
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Not pedantic. Again I ask: How could "he", one un-elected person be at war with a country?
    Maybe the same way as those involved in the plane attacks of 9/11 were "at war with America"?
    Tiresome ****e.

    More people were killed on 9/11 than were killed in our conflict/war. George Bush declared a 'war' after it. What the **** is you nonsense point about????









    I never said Ireland did that. However it allowed a statue, the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe, to be erected. Something that has outraged the largest Jewish victims organisation in the world.
    And if you wanted, you could put a statue up to Churchill. The Irish Gov even sanctioned a memorial to the man who put the gun tragically back into Irish politics - Carson, in his former university. So freaking what???


    On on the contrary, most Irish are good, very good. I said that earlier. You really need to stop demonising people because they are not unrepentant extremist Irish Republicans.
    From Dev to McGuinness, if they stand against Unionism or Britain they are BAD, in your eyes.


    And those military men who join forces and sail together in a war vessel (submarine) on active service during a time of war can indeed be called collaborators.

    No they can't. You 'collaborate' against your own. And Germany and Ireland were NOT at war.


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    #2008
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    From Dev to McGuinness, if they stand against Unionism or Britain they are BAD, in your eyes.
    .

    Wait now, Dev executed by firing squad six IRA men in Irish prisons, and you think that was "taking a stand against Unionisn or Britain?"


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    #2009
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    I’m not sure how this conversation got dragged into statues Nazis and dev.

    Usual deflect deflect deflect whenever the topic of unionism raises its ugly head I guess


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    #2010
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Wait now, Dev executed by firing squad six IRA men in Irish prisons, and you think that was "taking a stand against Unionisn or Britain?"

    So, would you support a statue of Dev then?


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    #2011
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Don’t think there’s even a statue to Collins is there?


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