Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 9:55pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

Well a nun has informed me that the lineage of Maryam in the quran has errors yet you say the quran has none. Also the version of Jesus you have in the quran is a twisted plagiarism of who God the son/ Jesus really is in the true scriptures of God. Issa of quran is NOT the real Jesus, far from it.

Interesting though is the fact Jesus in Irish is called Íosa and sounds like Issa, although i think the Arab Christians say Yasou3 ?? or do they say Issa too?

Nuns may do good deeds with their charitable work and they may be pious in the christian sense, but they are hardly knowledgeable people, especially when it comes to comparitive religious studies.

What is the error that you refer to?

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 9:55pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

There is some Arabic influence in western Irish culture, tradition and even in the Gaelic script.

That's really cool. I actually like the sound of Arabic. Do you know of those influences or how they came about? would appreciate it.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 10:04pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

That's really cool. I actually like the sound of Arabic. Do you know of those influences or how they came about? would appreciate it.

Bob Quinn wrote about some of this influence in The Atlantean Irish.

The Fatha which elongates a vowel sound comes from arabic.
The letter for G - as in Gaelic comes from the arabic alphabet.

One of teh most interesting relations between Ireland and an Islamic country occurred when a Ottoman Caliph sent aid to Ireland (food & Gold) during the great famine. To this day Drogheda football team has the star and crescent in their emblem.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 10:07pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Bob Quinn wrote about some of this influence in The Atlantean Irish.

The Fatha which elongates a vowel sound comes from arabic.
The letter for G - as in Gaelic comes from the arabic alphabet.

One of teh most interesting relations between Ireland and an Islamic country occurred when a Ottoman Caliph sent aid to Ireland (food & Gold) during the great famine. To this day Drogheda football team has the star and crescent in their emblem.

Oh you mean the Fada? i went to a gaelscoil so i can speak Irish. I didn't know it came from Arabic. I've heard that before about the ottomans and the famine.

Did you ever hear sean nós singing? do you think it sounds like arabic?

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 10:11pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

Oh you mean the Fada? i went to a gaelscoil so i can speak Irish. I didn't know it came from Arabic. I've heard that before about the ottomans and the famine.

Did you ever hear sean nós singing? do you think it sounds like arabic?

My wife is a PHD student in Arts (ceramics) and she did some research in this area. I will ask her. She is quite interested in the North African Arabic influence on Irish culture and music.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 10:15pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

My wife is a PHD student in Arts (ceramics) and she did some research in this area. I will ask her. She is quite interested in the North African Arabic influence on Irish culture and music.

Thanks a million MS!!!!! Shame the influence didn't happen with the food too haha

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 10:41pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

Thanks a million MS!!!!! Shame the influence didn't happen with the food too haha

With the amount of Kebab shops around Galway these days, it certainly is happening now. hehe

katydid · 30-12-2014 10:43pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Bob Quinn wrote about some of this influence in The Atlantean Irish.

The Fatha which elongates a vowel sound comes from arabic.
The letter for G - as in Gaelic comes from the arabic alphabet.

One of teh most interesting relations between Ireland and an Islamic country occurred when a Ottoman Caliph sent aid to Ireland (food & Gold) during the great famine. To this day Drogheda football team has the star and crescent in their emblem.

Drogheda's emblem has nothing to do with the Turks or any Muslims.

"The Star and Crescent coat of arms of Drogheda in fact dates back to the year 1210 AD and perhaps even earlier.

'In April of the year 1185, the then Prince John made his first visit to Ireland where he granted extensive lands to the trusted Royal Administration with one of these being Bertram de Verdun who was found in Drogheda at this time.

'During his stay in Ireland the young Prince, who was then only 19 years of age, established the foundation of Administration and Law, which he later expanded upon in his second expedition to Ireland in his reign as King in the year 1210.'

Prince John returned to England in December of the year 1185 and by this time Hugh de Lacy was establishing the town of Drogheda.

Walter de Lacy, son of Hugh was then granted the town's first Charter in 1194 and by the time King John arrived back in Drogheda in 1210, the town was flourishing.

John's Coat of Arms was that of the Star and Crescent,"

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/president-sparks-star-and-crescent-debate-27144260.html

katydid · 30-12-2014 10:45pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Nuns may do good deeds with their charitable work and they may be pious in the christian sense, but they are hardly knowledgeable people, especially when it comes to comparitive religious studies

How on earth do you know what individual nuns do or don't know? Many nuns are scholars.

katydid · 30-12-2014 10:53pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

This is simply not true I can argue and say more is expected from a man then a women

The OP discussed such points:

I'll start by quoting what she had said earlier in the thread - "Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior." It's important to look at all the issues of how the genders are treated in Islam (and the rationale behind them) before forming conclusions.

"if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a 'masculinist' making the case the Islam is 'misandrous' (for the record, I'm not, but bear with me), I could cite some of the following examples:

- "And give to the women their Dower with a good heart" (Quran 4:4) (Dower is obligatory bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage). This could be viewed as a discrimination against men, and a gross inequality.
- "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women" (Quran 4:34)... Err, again, why? Big deal if we're a bit stronger and taller on average, but women are well able to fend for themselves, so why are men singled out to be the maintainers of women? Women are entitled to their husband's wealth, but men have no rights over their wives' wealth, even if they earn less. More discrimination and burdens for men to bear.
- This isn't just confined to marriage: If a marriage ends in divorce, women get certain guarantees during the waiting period, and even beyond for a woman's support, and are also entitled to child support if they have children. This, again, irrespective of whether she may be wealthier than him to start off with.
- Women get more leeway in matters of daily obligatory prayers. From the time a boy hits puberty, it's a sin for him to miss a single prayer for the rest of his life (assuming he remains of sound mind) - even on his death bed, whereas women get a free pass every month during their periods and have no repercussions for missing the 5 daily prayers during those days. There's also a greater onus on men to attend their local mosque for prayers (and all the effort that's entailed with that), whereas women can cash the same reward with much less effort by praying at home. More inequalities."

Women are expected to cover themselves so that men won't be tempted sexually, but men are not expected to cover themselves in the same way so women won't be tempted. So more is expected of women.
Your examples are pretty pathetic...men pay for women to marry them, and that gives them de facto ownership over them. Women don't need to be protected and "maintained" - you ask why they are expected to? Because Islam was formed in a patriarchal society where men were dominant. "Excusing" women from prayers is simply patronising them; why should they be excused and treated differently? (I know your answer - household duties and menstruation....)

katydid · 30-12-2014 10:56pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Yes it mean exactly that, I don't need to listen to your over simplified explanation related to the verse you quoted since you clearly have no scholarship qualification in Arabic the Hadith or Qur'an for me to take what your saying & your interpretation seriously.

So how do YOU explain away that verse?

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 10:57pm

katydid wrote: »

How on earth do you know what individual nuns do or don't know? Many nuns are scholars.

Scholars? From what I have observed they are mostly concerned with devotion to the church and doing charitable deeds.

What kind of process do they go to, to become Scholars.

I'm assuming here that by Scholar you mean someone who has completed many years of study.

In Islam it takes a minimum of 10 years and even then the person is still considered a junior scholar or a student of knowledge.

Real Scholars in Islam, probably started studying when they were young teens, they know the Quran by heart, they've mastered several areas in Islamic knowledge and a able to issue religious edicts.

I've never seen or heard of nuns at that level. Maybe I'm misinformed. God knows best.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 11:00pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Scholars? From what I have observed they are mostly concerned with devotion to the church and doing charitable deeds.

What kind of process do they go to, to become Scholars.

I'm assuming here that by Scholar you mean someone who has completed many years of study.

In Islam it takes a minimum of 10 years and even then the person is still considered a junior scholar or a student of knowledge.

Real Scholars in Islam, probably started studying when they were young teens, they know the Quran by heart, they've mastered several areas in Islamic knowledge and a able to issue religious edicts.

I've never seen or heard of nuns at that level. Maybe I'm misinformed. God knows best.

I know priests basic training is 7 years and they study at university the length of time too. That's just the basic training they do though. Not sure about nuns. I am sure many of them are scholarly theologians too.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 11:03pm

katydid wrote: »

Drogheda's emblem has nothing to do with the Turks or any Muslims.

"The Star and Crescent coat of arms of Drogheda in fact dates back to the year 1210 AD and perhaps even earlier.

'In April of the year 1185, the then Prince John made his first visit to Ireland where he granted extensive lands to the trusted Royal Administration with one of these being Bertram de Verdun who was found in Drogheda at this time.

'During his stay in Ireland the young Prince, who was then only 19 years of age, established the foundation of Administration and Law, which he later expanded upon in his second expedition to Ireland in his reign as King in the year 1210.'

Prince John returned to England in December of the year 1185 and by this time Hugh de Lacy was establishing the town of Drogheda.

Walter de Lacy, son of Hugh was then granted the town's first Charter in 1194 and by the time King John arrived back in Drogheda in 1210, the town was flourishing.

John's Coat of Arms was that of the Star and Crescent,"

.....

There are different views of this.
Does he claim that the aid sent by the turks is false?

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:10pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

Answering Islam Home Page

Ah Niamh, there was no need for that. Defender is bad enough, with his long reams of bumpf. That was WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too long.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:16pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

Perhaps you can learn some manners first yourself!

I think it's because we're female, he thinks he can talk down to us. He hasn't reckoned for Irish women...

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:17pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Did you even watch the video your self? this was directed to a muslim audience primarily in Egypt.

Let me quote you some of what he said:

"Do not beat her in the face, do not make her ugly"
"and he must not break her bones,injure her,break her teeth or poke her in the eye, it should not leave a mark"
"He must avoid beating her in the head or the face"
"This is only permitted when the previous methods does not work"

It was clear that his intention were to educate those Muslims who think "I can turn my wife into a punishing bag and hit and smack as I like"

.

So telling Muslims it's ok to beat your wife as long as you don't beat her in the face or break her bones is acceptable????

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:20pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

You think by giving instructions on how a husband should go about beating his wife is actually going to get rid of domestic abuse. Please tell me you are joking. If not please seek help from a psychiatrist! .

This should be interesting...I wonder how he will explain this away and insist that women are equal.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:22pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Read what I said, since I clearly mentioned how this was directed toward a Muslim audience to correct Muslims that think "Oh I can turn my wife into a punching bag and beat her as I like"

That doesn't explain anything, other than you think it's ok for a person not to tell a Muslim audience that it is wrong under any circumstances, to beat up your wife.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:23pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Madam I know this channel. this channel is a well known Islamic channel based on Egypt directed specifically to a Muslim audience.

.

And that makes it ok how?

Defender OF Faith · 30-12-2014 11:24pm

katydid wrote: »

Drogheda's emblem has nothing to do with the Turks or any Muslims.

"The Star and Crescent coat of arms of Drogheda in fact dates back to the year 1210 AD and perhaps even earlier.

'In April of the year 1185, the then Prince John made his first visit to Ireland where he granted extensive lands to the trusted Royal Administration with one of these being Bertram de Verdun who was found in Drogheda at this time.

'During his stay in Ireland the young Prince, who was then only 19 years of age, established the foundation of Administration and Law, which he later expanded upon in his second expedition to Ireland in his reign as King in the year 1210.'

Prince John returned to England in December of the year 1185 and by this time Hugh de Lacy was establishing the town of Drogheda.

Walter de Lacy, son of Hugh was then granted the town's first Charter in 1194 and by the time King John arrived back in Drogheda in 1210, the town was flourishing.

John's Coat of Arms was that of the Star and Crescent,"

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/president-sparks-star-and-crescent-debate-27144260.html

Mary McAleese was widely reported in the media for her remarks about the Drogheda Star and Crescent being used in honour of Turkish aid ships during the Famine, proved to be incorrect as Drogheda has had the symbol as it's crest since 1210.

source: http://droghedalife.com/791/94859/a/launch-of-drogheda-and-the-ottoman-empire-ships-of-1847

This is where many people might have got this misconception from but that doesnt deny the possible contribution of the Ottoman to the Irish citizen during the famine.

katydid wrote: »

Women are expected to cover themselves so that men won't be tempted sexually, but men are not expected to cover themselves in the same way so women won't be tempted. So more is expected of women.

They are not expected to cover up so men wont be tempted sexually how many time do I have to tell you this? they wear the Hijab to obey and please their lord. Such purpose is one of the benefits that comes with the veil.

The Muslim woman does not feel the pressures to be beautiful or attractive, which is so apparent in the Western and Eastern cultures. She does not have to live up to expectations of what is desirable and what is not. Superficial beauty is not the Muslim woman's concern, her main goal is inner spiritual beauty. She does not have to use her body and charms to get recognition or acceptance in society.

Another benefit of adorning the veil is that it is a protection for women. Muslims believe that when women display their beauty to everybody, they degrade themselves by becoming objects of sexual desire and become vulnerable to men, who look at them as " gratification for the sexual urge". The Hijab makes them out as women belonging to the class of modest chaste women, so that transgressors and sensual men may recognize them as such and dare not tease them out of mischief". Hijab solves the problem of sexual harassment and unwanted sexual advances, which is so demeaning for women, when men get mixed signals and believe that women want their advances by the way they reveal their bodies.

The western ideology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!' is quite opposite to the Islamic principle, where the purpose is not to bring attention to ones self, but to be modest. Women in so many societies are just treated as sex symbols and nothing more than just a body who "display themselves to get attention". A good example is in advertising, where a woman's body is used to sell products. Women are constantly degraded, and subjected to reveal more and more of themselves.

The Covering sanctifies her and forces society to hold her in high esteem. Far from humiliating the woman, Hijab actually grants the woman an aura of respect, and bestows upon her a separate and unique identity. According to the Qu'ran, the same high standards of moral conduct are for men as it is for women. Modesty is essential in a man's life, as well, whether it be in action, morals or speech. Islam also commands proper behavior and dress of men, in that they are not allowed to make a wanton show of their bodies to attract attention onto themselves, and they too must dress modestly. They have a special commandment to lower their eyes, and not to brazenly stare at women.

katydid wrote: »

Your examples are pretty pathetic...men pay for women to marry them, and that gives them de facto ownership over them.

No it doesn't give them "ownership" over them stop putting words in my mouth.

katydid wrote: »

Women don't need to be protected and "maintained" -

Not every women in this world is as educated as you are and is blessed with a job as you are or able to protect and provide for themselves as you. Islam made it the duty of the Husband to protect an financially maintain his wife and daughters. If a robber or a thief break into the house it's the man duty to protect his wife and fend him off. This does not prevent the wife from pursing a career or supporting her husband if he's in need, but she will not be asked by God as to why she did not provide for her family the burden of this question will be on the man.

katydid wrote: »

"Excusing" women from prayers is simply patronising them; why should they be excused and treated differently? (I know your answer - household duties and menstruation....)

I don't think you sympathize with women who go through their menstrual cycle, as it's the only reason why women are excused from their prayer & not because of household duties or any other reason.

Some menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

If a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:25pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

^ When I recite some of the 99 Names and Attributes of of Allah to a Non Muslim, they stare at me with a profound sense of wonderment.

Perhaps bewilderment or amusement might be a better word for it.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 11:25pm

katydid wrote: »

I think it's because we're female, he thinks he can talk down to us. He hasn't reckoned for Irish women...

I generally don't argue with women.
They run you down in no time and they will always win.

Here is a quote from Umar RA who was the second Caliph in Islam.

'Umar ibn al-Khattab (RA) said that a man came to his house to complain about his wife. On reaching the door of his house, he hears 'Umar's wife shouting at him and reviling him. Seeing this, he was about to go back, thinking that 'Umar himself was in the same position and, therefore, could hardly suggest any solution for his problem. 'Umar (RA) saw the man turn back, so he called him and enquired about the purpose of his visit. He said that he had come with a complaint against his wife, but turned back on seeing the Caliph in the same position. 'Umar (RA) told him that he tolerated the excesses of his wife for she had certain rights against him. He said, "Is it not true that she prepares food for me, washes clothes for me and suckles my children, thus saving me the expense of employing a cook, a washerman and a nurse, though she is not legally obliged in any way to do any of these things? Besides, I enjoy peace of mind because of her and am kept away from indecent acts on account of her. I therefore tolerate all her excesses on account of these benefits. It is right that you should also adopt the same attitude." Quoted in Rahman, Role of Muslim Women page 149

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 11:30pm

katydid wrote: »

Perhaps bewilderment or amusement might be a better word for it.

Why would they have those thoughts at something so sublime and beautiful? Some of them have actually praised Islam and Muslims for being able to recite all these wonderful names.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:32pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

As for your assertion the God is three, then the New Testament disproves this:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.

Deuteronomy and the Psalms are not the New Testament.

John also said, at the very start of his Gospel "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The Word is Jesus, who existed from the beginning, along with the other elements of God. John clearly laid it out from the beginning that God was more than a single entity. When he speaks of the one true God who sent Jesus, he does so on this basis; God the Creator IS the one true God, as is God the Redeemer and God the Inspirer. All part of the same ONE God. Hence Galatians.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:33pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

I don't think that all Christians hold the belief that Catholics have - that Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) was God in the flesh.

Jehovah witnesses for one, do not ascribe any divinity to Jesus. They merely consider him to be the son of God.

Do you doubt their respect and love for him?

A.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian.

coffee_cake · 30-12-2014 11:34pm

katydid wrote: »

Ah Niamh, there was no need for that. Defender is bad enough, with his long reams of bumpf. That was WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too long.

It was a pretty interesting read though

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 11:36pm

katydid wrote: »

Deuteronomy and the Psalms are not the New Testament.

John also said, at the very start of his Gospel "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The Word is Jesus, who existed from the beginning, along with the other elements of God. John clearly laid it out from the beginning that God was more than a single entity. When he speaks of the one true God who sent Jesus, he does so on this basis; God the Creator IS the one true God, as is God the Redeemer and God the Inspirer. All part of the same ONE God. Hence Galatians.

My bad. I meant to say the bible.

Where in the bible does it say that Jesus was the Word? For something so profound it has to be proven by explicit divine texts and not by the rationale of mortal beings like ourselves.

Did God Himself say in his own words that the Word is Jesus? Did He say that He is Jesus?

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 11:38pm

katydid wrote: »

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian.

On what basis?

I can understand that Mormons aren't Christians, since they follow another prophet after Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) but Jehovah Witnesses, why are they not Christians.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:39pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Scholars? From what I have observed they are mostly concerned with devotion to the church and doing charitable deeds.

What kind of process do they go to, to become Scholars.

I'm assuming here that by Scholar you mean someone who has completed many years of study.

In Islam it takes a minimum of 10 years and even then the person is still considered a junior scholar or a student of knowledge.

Real Scholars in Islam, probably started studying when they were young teens, they know the Quran by heart, they've mastered several areas in Islamic knowledge and a able to issue religious edicts.

I've never seen or heard of nuns at that level. Maybe I'm misinformed. God knows best.

Your observation is limited, then. There are nuns who lecture in universities and theological colleges, and who have written academic and theological books. One of my theology tutors was a nun.

Nuns, like anyone else, go through the normal channels of scholarship; university, post graduate studies...what channels do you think they would do? Gaze at crystal balls?

Knowing scripture by heart is not necessarily the same as understanding it. I see no great merit in spending years learning something by rote when you could pend it figuring out what it means instead.

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

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