Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

muslimstudent wrote: »

Why are you so offended by Muslim women wanting to obey their Creator by dressing conservatively? If you believe in women's rights then you should be the first to believe in their right to wear the hijab.

Men are also obliged to be moderate, in their dress sense and in their behavior. There are ordered to "lower their gaze," so your assertion that Muslim women dress moderately to pander to women's weaknesses is unfounded.

Of course they have the RIGHT to wear hijab. I never said they didn't have the right. But I am offended by women allowing men to dictate to them what they THINK God told them to do. Men have told women that God wants them to cover up so that men will be able to control themselves in their presence, and women accept that nonsense, instead of telling men to exercise some self control.

If men are supposed to lower their gaze, and if that was considered enough, then clearly there would be no need for women to cover up in the way they do.

I never said women cover themselves up to pander to WOMEN'S weakness; I said they pander to MEN'S weakness.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And so around in circles we go.

"Islam oppresses women - I've seen it on the telly"

"No it doesn't, here's many quotes from the Quoran that proves it doesn't"

Seriously people, this is what is wrong in the world today - entrenched views, with no appreciation of context, social, cultural or political factors on either side. One upmanship at its worst.

To those who think Islam oppresses women - have you ever actually spent a length of time in a Muslim country (and no, I am not talking about a stopover in Dubai)? Can you honestly say the oppression, as you see it, happens in every single country, to every single Muslim female? I have serious issues with gross generalisations, and that's all I can see on this matter.

And to those who argue Islam doesn't oppress women - I'm sorry, but you are digging an even bigger hole for yourself by quoting a 1400 year old holy book. This forum is based in Ireland, a modern, Western democracy where religion has fallen out of favour for whatever reasons. I hope you can appreciate why people have such problems relating to such material. Intelligent discourse, with real world examples are what people are looking for.

As to the thread itself, I hope people will take a step back, think about what I have said and consider their viewpoint.

Islam is interpreted in many different ways. Some ways oppress women, some don't. But those that defend it here insist that it doesn't oppress women in any way at all ever. That is patent nonsense. Islam, like Christianity or Judaism, can be interpreted in a way that oppresses women, or can be interpreted totally differently. That is something the Muslims here can't bring themselves to admit, since they can't let go the premise that the Word of God can't be changed.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Who said that it's not open for interpretation? interpretation of the Qur'an is left to the mufasireen (exegetes).

The original Arabic text is not open for change or any alteration, however different scholars of Tafsir may interpret different meanings from a verse based on their knowledge and understanding.

A normal Muslim however is invited by the Qur'an itself to think and reflect about its meaning and if in doubts he can consult a book of Tafsir.

"A Quranic tafsir will often explain intent or provide places and times, not contained in Quranic verses, as well as give restriction of meanings, or explanations for why verses seem contradictory, and where possible the situation and circumstance under which some verses were revealed"

So the exegetes interpret it, and the "ordinary Muslim" picks which piece of exegesis he or she likes to suit what they want to believe. Which is fair enough - but let's not pretend that there's not room for interpretation which puts the question of things like dress and the role of women into question...

I'm getting the impression followers of muhammad's book think men are like these beasts who if they see an attractive lady lose self control LOL So back in the real world, i feel the majority of guys are totally fine, you will always get freaks though. As is the case in egypt where women were the head covering stuff and stil get harassed. That says it all really. It's not the clothes basically. It's so hilarious we are discussing this in an ireland forum though seeing as basically no one in ireland is muslim and we are all Catholic LOL

Why I as a Muslim Woman Don't Wear a Headscarf


Does the Koran really demand that women wear headscarves? Or is it mainly older men who claim they can decide how women should dress – with no theological foundation whatsoever? For the Islam scholar Lamya Kaddor, there is no question about it: the headscarf is obsolete


​If I as a Muslim woman living in Germany ask myself whether I should wear a headscarf or not, that gives rise to the question of whether the additional head-covering called for in the Koran (33:59) still fulfils its original purpose of protecting women from male desire. My answer is: no. In contemporary Germany such covering-up no longer serves that purpose. It is even more likely to bring about the opposite of what God intended by exposing wearers of headscarves to discrimination.



Today the intended protection against 'annoyances' is provided by a well-functioning legal system rather than by adherence to social rules from the past. A free state based on the rule of law protects a woman, for example by punishing attacks on her person. This protection may be primarily concerned with bodily integrity, but people in a modern state are more than ever responsible for themselves with regard to the freedoms accorded – including in the realm of moral integrity. Covering my head cannot relieve me of that responsibility. I cannot hide myself behind a little piece of cloth. A free and democratic state grants rights and also imposes responsibilities. In such circumstances I can behave honourably with and without a veil or head-scarf – or not, as the case may be.


A 'fashion accessory' from Koranic times?
If this argument is accepted, one can also abandon the Koranic demand for additional covering, directed towards women in Early Arabic tribal society. What would still initially remain is the khimâr, the head covering that was part of women's clothing at that time. The Koran neither speaks against nor in any way emphasises that form of covering. God uses the word only once in the Koran (24:31). That occurs in passing in connection with a call for moral behaviour. So there is no Koranic emphasis on such head covering. However, if God had required a special head covering, would He not have said so explicitly? The khimâr thus merely constitutes a 'fashion accessory' according to the spirit of that age. Viewed rationally, functions consciously or unconsciously associated with head coverings across the course of history – such as protection against sand or evil influences – are all superannuated today and have lost their validity. People's powers of imagination have changed.


Female students with and without headscarf (photo: picture-alliance/dpa)
"Sura 24:30-31 calls on both men and women to behave chastely, but exegesis of the Koran up to the present day only puts the emphasis on chaste behaviour for women,"

Kaddor writes
​​
In the Germany of the twenty-first century – at the very latest – women's hairstyles are no longer per se an erotic stimulus. The sight of head-hair no longer provokes sexual fantasies and thus immoral behaviour – except perhaps among fetishists. When you walk along a city's pedestrian precincts no one turns to look at you because of your hair. Only if you dress provocatively or in a particularly original way, and behave accordingly, do you attract some attention. In addition, this isn't a male world that still thinks as it did a thousand or more years ago. Thanks to the achievements of a free and democratic state, and thanks to the prevalent understanding of relations between the sexes, you no longer necessarily need a head covering in order to live morally. The headscarf has become obsolete.


Misogyny by Islamic scholars

Today's orthodox comprehension of the obligation to wear a head covering is primarily based on the interpretations of scholars who lived several generations after the Prophet Mohammed. One can follow their judgements but they are not sacrosanct. As human beings all scholars are fallible. Conservative and fundamentalist circles constantly emphasise that our behaviour should follow the Koran and the Prophet. Their spokesmen maintain that this directly accords with what was laid down during the Prophet's lifetime and the initial period of Islam.
Koran (photo: fotolia/lapas 77)


The depiction of the headscarf as a unifying element within the Muslim community is not well founded, Kaddor argues
​​
However in reality this view is mainly based on the ideas of scholars who lived some 600 (!) years later – such people as Ibn Qudâma (d. 1223), Ibn Taymîya (d. 1328), or the latter's pupil Ibn Qayyim al-Jawzîya (d. 1350). Bearing in mind the patriarchal social structures of that time, it is unsurprising that interpretations of sources concerning relations between the sexes were usually unfavourable for women – even though that contradicts a striving (to be found throughout the Koran) towards improving women's situation. That tendency is even less surprising if one recalls the misogyny demonstrated by many scholars throughout the history of Islam. Linking shame and a head covering is by no means as self-evident as it seems. Sura 24:30-31 calls on both men and women to behave chastely, but exegesis of the Koran up to the present day only puts the emphasis on chaste behaviour for women.


No political symbol
Nevertheless, the Koranic injunction to dress in a way that is generally demure remains a religious demand, to be fulfilled by wearing 'appropriate' clothing. A woman believer sees this as signifying that all those parts of the female body which nowadays excite the idea of possible sexual contact should continue to be 'properly' concealed beneath the kind of clothing usual today. What is entailed in 'proper', 'appropriate', or 'decent' is left to the reasonableness of every mature woman citizen, since at present there are no specific directives based on Islamic sources. In prevalent practice, it is mostly older men – learned or unlearned – who assume the right to determine how a woman should appear, but there is no theological or sociological foundation for this.
A similar situation prevails regarding evaluation of the headscarf as a token of Islamic faith. Such a function cannot be demonstrated in the history of Islam. The depiction of the headscarf as a unifying element within the Muslim community is not well founded either. In addition, its function as a political symbol, so frequently evoked in public discussions today, also constitutes a historically unfounded inflation of the significance of this item of clothing. This has occurred only in recent decades, as an element in the opposition to Western influences within the Islamic world.


Lamya Kaddor © Goethe-Institut 2011
Lamya Kaddor was born in 1978 in Ahlen, Westphalia, as the daughter of Syrian immigrants. As a student she specialised in Islamic Studies, and went on to train Islamic teachers of religion at Münster University. Since the 2003-04 school year she has been involved as a teacher in the 'Islamic Studies in the German Language' project. Her most recent book is "Muslimisch – weiblich – deutsch! Mein Leben für einen zeitgemäßen Islam" (Muslim – Female – German! My Life for an Islam in Keeping with the Times), C.H. Beck Verlag, Munich 2010. This text is an abbreviated version of a study published in Thorsten Gerald Schneider's Islamverherrlichung [Glorification of Islam], VS Verlag, Wiesbaden 2010, pp. 131–158.
Editor: Lewis Gropp/Qantara.de

wwww. en.qantara.de/content/the-german-islam-scholar-lamya-kaddor-why-i-as-a-muslim-woman-dont-wear-a-headscarf

Frank Grimes wrote: »

How is it "generally the case" that "we are all Catholic" when this is quite evidently untrue, similarly with your assertion about the number of Muslims here.

We are all Catholic though haha are you thinking of the UK or something?

muslimstudent wrote: »

There are big misunderstandings about the Hijab.

Some people, Muslims included, think that the Hijab is just a head covering.

It is much more than that.

Ignorance in matters of religion are inevitable, especially after a long period has passed since the its beginning.

You haven't answered either of my questions.