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Covid 19 crisis - aid to the civil power

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    #62
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »
    My friend was asked to return for Monday. He was retired near two years. Was in for 20 years and drove APC vehicles for the army.


    The news can confirm this, they just need to ask the question and will likely get a reply!

    They've had a massive drain the last few years of very experienced men. I can't see the powers that me not using that experience.


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    #63
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Bringing in retired staff is another absolute nonsense, and this covid seems to be absolutely surrounded by nonsense speculation.

    Retired staff, even if they are physically capable, are no longer employees and thus would not be insured to do any work. And their training would be all out of date too unless they retired only very recently.
    Not all old. A family member retired with 40 years of logistics experience. He's only 60. Would be interested to hear from the military guys.
    Was it experience in the PDF? If not the Army are hardly going to hire some random retiree who never had any previous experience with them. And if he is 60 he is at high risk so it would be a bad idea for him anyways.

    Leave it to the authorities. As with a lot of other things, well meaning people going in to help out are usually more of a hindrance than a help.


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    #64
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,682 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    I don't think it would be possible. A retired person is just that, retired, and no longer under any obligation to do anything. It would be purely on a voluntary basis. And most retirees will be old and thus would be an at risk group, so they couldn't be used anyway.

    Not 100% correct.

    Some contracts require an obligation for reserve service for a set amount of time.

    For example, someone does 10 years permanent service, then is obliged to be in reserve for 4 years..just an example.


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    #65
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,682 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Whitney Low Gunpoint wrote: »
    Not all old. A family member retired with 40 years of logistics experience. He's only 60. Would be interested to hear from the military guys.

    If you join at 17/18 you can retire with a pension after 21 years, you will be 38/39.

    Plenty of young retired soldiers out there.


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    #66
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Not 100% correct.

    Some contracts require an obligation for reserve service for a set amount of time.

    For example, someone does 10 years permanent service, then is obliged to be in reserve for 4 years..just an example.

    Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.


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    #67
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,682 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

    Ok Chief.

    You know it all.


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    #68
    cajonlardo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

    You are under the mistaken impression that Labour law extends to the pdf.

    It does not.

    A good example was the Pilots who had come to the end of their term of service.

    They were recruited by an airline.
    Until Mickey the Minister told them they were going nowhere until he deemed fit.

    As an aside, would you lay off the lazy claims of what the pdf do or do not do.

    I will admit to pulling my wire but neither I nor my family ever claimed a cent (from anyone, let alone the state)

    PDf are meeting themselves coming back from working ridiculous hours (without overtime payments) on the floods relief.

    We had 3 good lads wounded week before last over in Mali. Good people doing good work in other countries also.

    Navy just returned from patrol in serious gales (they'll laugh at me, but I'd think it was serious) and are tied up waiting to help.

    People on leave from overseas missions are being ordered back,their leave cancelled.

    Don't know why I bothered typing any of this, people like yourself are just unreasonable and so it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.
    Anyone else reading it likely live the life and will find my post boring :)


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    #69
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    restricting movement? Me arse they will. How could the government do that. I would doubt that they would even have a legal basis to lawfully restrict a persons movements unless that person is actually proven to be sick and a an immediate danger of spreading the virus.


    There wasn't half of this outrage back in the '50s when there was TB and that had a death rate of about 30 or 40 percent if you got it.
    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    They could not bring in any law that unconditionally prevents free movement.
    They would be faced with huge lawsuits and claims for unlawful or unconstitutional detention.

    I'd like to see them stop me from getting around by the boreens and fields.
    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    A fanciful notion. The hasn't been martial last in Ireland since the war of independence and civil war. People were being slaughtered in the streets.

    It's fairytale thinking that martial law would be declared over what is essentially a bad cold.

    It would be profoundly unpopular and in a Western country like Ireland it simply would be unthinkable to impose it in anything other than the most very most exceptionally extreme of circumstances.

    Anyway, they haven't got the capability or the will to enforce it. I would like to see them try to impose it and try to stop me or anyone going the byways of the countryside. What are they going to do? Shoot me?

    In China they can do these things because they have that sort of system and the population is fairly disciplined. Here, it's full of selfish me feiners and chancers who will try to sue or claim off the gov at the drop off a hat of there's any small chance at all they'll get away with it.
    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    I don't think it would be possible. A retired person is just that, retired, and no longer under any obligation to do anything. It would be purely on a voluntary basis. And most retirees will be old and thus would be an at risk group, so they couldn't be used anyway.
    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Bringing in retired staff is another absolute nonsense, and this covid seems to be absolutely surrounded by nonsense speculation.

    Retired staff, even if they are physically capable, are no longer employees and thus would not be insured to do any work. And their training would be all out of date too unless they retired only very recently.


    Was it experience in the PDF? If not the Army are hardly going to hire some random retiree who never had any previous experience with them. And if he is 60 he is at high risk so it would be a bad idea for him anyways.

    Leave it to the authorities. As with a lot of other things, well meaning people going in to help out are usually more of a hindrance than a help.
    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

    Where does one even begin?

    With every idiotic word out of your mouth, you just prove to everybody that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about, yet you have the confidence to spew your rhetoric as somebody who's an expert.

    There's nothing in any of your posts that provides any value to the topic. You are absolutely ignorant of the military and it's blatantly obvious that you hold a very vile opinion of the IDF.

    You know nothing and you are not convincing anybody on here otherwise. Hypocrit of the highest order. On boards all day, probably because you're on the scratcher. Away with you child...


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    #70
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    TBH our CBRN suits are not required for Covid-19, respirators and canister maybe. They are designed for more robust threats.

    A Brigade is made up of Infantry Battalions, Artillery Regiments, Cavalry Squadrons, support etc. A single "Unit" could consist of anything from 50-300 people.

    We have hundreds of NATO level CBRN instructors but its not really applicable to this.

    That's why I'm curious what exactly the suits are, because well depending on what kind of aid is going to be provided some sort of suit will need to be worn for contamination purposes, and it's a waste of resources


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    #71
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,682 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    riffmongous wrote: »
    That's why I'm curious what exactly the suits are, because well depending on what kind of aid is going to be provided some sort of suit will need to be worn for contamination purposes, and it's a waste of resources

    Im not a CBRN expert, just know how to put the gear on and fight.

    Pics of the suits here

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.icrc.org/en/document/pictures-responding-chemical-biological-radiological-or-nuclear-cbrn-events%3famp


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    #72
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #73
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Markcheese wrote: »
    When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

    Not sure of the current circumstances but usually for cases of infection you stay in PPE the whole time until after the disinfection of the vehicle has been performed at base


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    #74
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Markcheese wrote: »
    When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

    Your punctuation has given me Covid-19. Double.


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    #75
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,811 ✭✭✭Alkers


    sparky42 wrote: »
    So far from the Mellet interview they are only thinking about using them for extra testing sites if the HSE needed them.

    Does this not seem a terrible idea? Putting a whole ship out if action, when every hotel and school in the country is likely to be empty and better suited to a test centre role than a ship with tight corridors and difficult surfaces to clean?


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    #76
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    Markcheese wrote: »
    When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

    For testing, the person doing the testing disposes of their PPE after each patient. If transporting a suspected covid patient, the person in the back with the patient disposes of their PPE after bringing them into hospital. The driver then dons their PPE and decontaminates the back of the ambulance.


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    #77
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    ectoraige wrote: »
    For testing, the person doing the testing disposes of their PPE after each patient. If transporting a suspected covid patient, the person in the back with the patient disposes of their PPE after bringing them into hospital. The driver then dons their PPE and decontaminates the back of the ambulance.

    Which organisation?


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    #78
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Eithne is reportedly being brought back into service to become a testing site at Hogan's quay in Cork.


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    #79
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    And if Eithne is to be brought back into service, then what other ships or services are going to be curtailed to man her?

    NS have more ships than sailor at this stage because the pay is so appallingly bad.


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    #80
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭sparky42


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    And if Eithne is to be brought back into service, then what other ships or services are going to be curtailed to man her?

    NS have more ships than sailor at this stage because the pay is so appallingly bad.


    Also the fact that they have an unplanned ship that was never budgeted for in their total manpower.


    Given that the engineering ratings seem to be the major issue, given she's not actually going to be sailing whatever manpower that was sustaining her in the Basin can do the same at Hogan's Quay.


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    #81
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Why would they even use a ship for this? It makes no sense. How is a person with disabilities supposed to go on the ship for testing? The ship is a confined space, ideal environment for a virus to spread.

    Would it not just make more sense to rent some vacant office or retail space, of which there is plenty in Cork, and do the testing there? Or use one of the buildings down in Haulbowline for it.
    Surely it would be more straightforward and more accessible that all this messing around with 40 year old ships.

    And another thing, Horgans Quay? You can't have people queing up there. The main road is immediately alongside and it would be traffic chaos.


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah can't believe they didn't consult with The Boy Connor, the authority on everything!


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    #83
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Irish_peppa


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Why would they even use a ship for this? It makes no sense. How is a person with disabilities supposed to go on the ship for testing? The ship is a confined space, ideal environment for a virus to spread.

    Would it not just make more sense to rent some vacant office or retail space, of which there is plenty in Cork, and do the testing there? Or use one of the buildings down in Haulbowline for it.
    Surely it would be more straightforward and more accessible that all this messing around with 40 year old ships.

    And another thing, Horgans Quay? You can't have people queing up there. The main road is immediately alongside and it would be traffic chaos.

    To add to the apocalyptic feel? All they need are air raid sirens going off in the background war of the worlds style. In fairness I agree seems a bit odd to be using ships when a stadium/ offices or warehouse would do


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    #84
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    A car park or warehouse would do. Well ventilated, plenty space, accessible and readilly available.


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    #85
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm not sure of the logistics of it all ,but I'm sure they know what they're doing , I think the advantage is the self sustaining nature of the ship and its crew , and their broad Taining,
    For the eithne if push comes to shove ,you use the hanger , put a Marquee on the fight deck , and stick another Marquee on the quay side ...
    Horgan's quay is quite long .,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #86
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,811 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I think the advantage is the self sustaining nature of the ship and its crew

    That might make sense, if it wasn't going to be alongside, in a city, where there is ample access to every form of supplies.

    It's an absolutely mad idea to me, the same personnel could just as easily be deployed in a school, GAA club or hotel with much less danger and probably more-effectively.


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    #87
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Alkers wrote: »
    That might make sense, if it wasn't going to be alongside, in a city, where there is ample access to every form of supplies.

    It's an absolutely mad idea to me, the same personnel could just as easily be deployed in a school, GAA club or hotel with much less danger and probably more-effectively.


    Ok why do you think there's "danger" at all?


    I think the reason why the ships are being used rather than your suggested facilities is that the crew know how to perform such checks on the ships while ensuring the crews safety due to their experience in the Med. The check space will be on the upper and aft decks which worse come to worse can just be powerhosed off at set times, something not entirely available in said offices/clubs/hotels.


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    #88
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I agree, I think its just to have a visible presence of patrol ships in the City Centres, Dublin and Galway already have them in place, whether as accessible accommodation, command post or whatever. With all forces on yellow alert and leavrle cancelled maybe the manpower issues are so severe at the minute, but I'm sure a skeleton crew can sail Eithne to the Quay and then run her systems and provide sentries while she's tied up.

    Lord knows the NS vessels are feck all use at sea just now.


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    #89
    mikeym
    Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Anyone in the Df that has an underlying illness is sent home.

    So theres no point in bringing in people who are over Sixty to do front line work when they could be exposed to the virus.


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    #90
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,811 ✭✭✭Alkers


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Ok why do you think there's "danger" at all?


    I think the reason why the ships are being used rather than your suggested facilities is that the crew know how to perform such checks on the ships while ensuring the crews safety due to their experience in the Med. The check space will be on the upper and aft decks which worse come to worse can just be powerhosed off at set times, something not entirely available in said offices/clubs/hotels.
    It's very hard to powerhose an area like that with out potentially contaminating yourself or the surrounding area, I don't see powerhosing being used as a clean up method for any other testing facilities anywhere either.
    I just see a ship as being constrained, inaccessible, even with a gangway and full of services, openings and fixtures making appropriate cleaning more difficult.
    There are plenty of things ships and crews could be used for but I'm not seeing as a testing centre being an optimal choice. That appears to be the decision though so we'll see how it works


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    #91
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,811 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Alkers wrote: »
    It's very hard to powerhose an area like that with out potentially contaminating yourself or the surrounding area, I don't see powerhosing being used as a clean up method for any other testing facilities anywhere either.
    I just see a ship as being constrained, inaccessible, even with a gangway and full of services, openings and fixtures making appropriate cleaning more difficult.
    There are plenty of things ships and crews could be used for but I'm not seeing as a testing centre being an optimal choice. That appears to be the decision though so we'll see how it works

    https://amp.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/naval-service-vessels-deployed-to-act-as-support-bases-for-onshore-covid-19-test-centres-39056330.html

    This seems to suggest the ships are there in a support role for shoreside test sites, which seems a much more logical scenario


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