Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Oh I certainly can.
I know.
If a religion claimed its religion gave it the right to over rule the law of the land you enforce the law.
No we are typing. My answers are very clear. This is a discussion. I haven’t arrived with any ready made solutions. I’m reading what others write and contributing. It’s a pity you collapse back into personalized jibes when your emotions get the better of you.

Evidently we do not always put the law of the land ahead of religious beliefs, Ireland is prime example of that but we could also look at some of the LGBT teachings in the UK and how they have been rejected to see that this isn't always possible

Again retreating back into the emotions jibes in order to shut down others while not actually answering anything or asking anything. I assume you only want "reasonable" people to agree with you.

mrjoneill wrote: »

And what is the trend in Ireland? Going back 20yrs ago murder was very rare, and even 10yrs ago it was also relatively rare. Its not today. There is a murder every day or second day in Ireland. There has been an outpouring of school bullying reportings in recent weeks and school totally failing to deal with the issues as a lot of the time the bullying is online which the school has not the capacity to police. Drugs have become common in schools and most children get their first introduction to drugs in schools. Gangs are becoming more a problem in our schools mimicking the same as US schools. More and more schools are coming under state control, becoming secular loosing their religious controls as happened in the US. More and more the question is being asked in Ireland what is the role of teachers, is it educators or is it policing the classroom and schools and the internet in regards it student population.

Are you sure about murder being rare? is it just that we have become more aware of it and the media like in America is focusing on it allot more?

Bullying is definitely not a new thing, as someone who was bullied back in the day and the school system doing nothing about it is nothing new.

How do you know that drugs are common in schools? and or gangs? North Dublin is not the whole country and even at that we have always had a general drugs problem in Ireland. I remember some of the vigilante marchs in the early 90's over heroin ect.

Could it be the case rather than mimicking or adopting American policies we are actually causing it by the lack of general policing and enforcement of crimes for people under the age of 18?

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I can only answer for what my approach is.
Any reasonable person will see that you resorted to the jibes about O Muldoon etc when you lost control of your emotions. Accusing me of what you are guilty of doing is obvious, weak and enough to tell me that communication with you is pointless.

Again you answer nothing and look to discredit by saying the other person has lost control over their emotions.

What worse is your over simplification and support for a click bait article without actually wanting to tease it out just essentially posting items that confirm your own bias. Especially when it relates to a topic as serious as the Ana Kriegel case.

Indeed i cannot communicate with you because your not actually saying anything.

Calhoun wrote: »

Evidently we do not always put the law of the land ahead of religious beliefs, Ireland is prime example of that but we could also look at some of the LGBT teachings in the UK and how they have been rejected to see that this isn't always possible

Again retreating back into the emotions jibes in order to shut down others while not actually answering anything or asking anything. I assume you only want "reasonable" people to agree with you.






Are you sure about murder being rare? is it just that we have become more aware of it and the media like in America is focusing on it allot more?

Bullying is definitely not a new thing, as someone who was bullied back in the day and the school system doing nothing about it is nothing new.

How do you know that drugs are common in schools? and or gangs? North Dublin is not the whole country and even at that we have always had a general drugs problem in Ireland. I remember some of the vigilante marchs in the early 90's over heroin ect.

Could it be the case rather than mimicking or adopting American policies we are actually causing it by the lack of general policing and enforcement of crimes for people under the age of 18?

The stats would tell us murder has become much more common. we were always aware of murder prob even more conscious in the past its was so rare


Bullying prob has been with us since time began, but we are now more focused on it as a specific prob. Its dealing with it in the school with the advent of the internet has made it much more insidious and difficult to police. What happens in the school property should be easily policed by the school but what happens online is a very different matter. As I stated earlier a school of recent had to deal with most of the class of girls being maliciously put on a "sex-cruising" site with their names and faces with fake explicit sex pictures. This is not the easiest matter for the school to police as it did not happen in the school property but it has direct effect on the school.


As for drugs they are out of control. Every party and I mean every party with teenagers has an element of drugs invol. Its no longer the case of a booze up but a booze and drugs up. More and more parties are private house parties. The local pub serves as small part of this as compared to the past. This was a trend which I saw first in the US. We are right up there now with that. Drugs are being dealt in schools just like they are being dealt in pubs and clubs. Never before has drugs being so proliferate.

Drugs was a largely Dublin prob its now an national one. More and more pharmacies doing methadone treatments is symptomatic of this.



As for mimicking US standards or lack of them I believe for schools it has become such a wider and more difficult areas for to police. Its back to what is the role of teachers, is it educators or as police

tuxy wrote: »

No, when Goodwin was originally sentenced the judge decided to postpone the decision on if it should be a life sentence for one decade.
In this case the judge made no such provision that I am aware of.
The sentence Boy A received is life. The sentence is not up for review in 12 years the term of imprisonment is.

Looking at the judgment that was not stated. What it seemed to me the trail judge put the onus back on the convicted killers that the final sentence will be on the reforming that they did which was to be periodically reviewed concluding with the determined period.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I can only answer for what my approach is.
Any reasonable person will see that you resorted to the jibes about O Muldoon etc when you lost control of your emotions. Accusing me of what you are guilty of doing is obvious, weak and enough to tell me that communication with you is pointless.

Ok. What is your approach? I would love to read it.
Specifically in regards to male on female violence but also in regards to violence in society in general.

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

If it makes you feel any better, most children who commit terrible crimes have themselves been abused

mrjoneill wrote: »

And what is the trend in Ireland? Going back 20yrs ago murder was very rare, and even 10yrs ago it was also relatively rare. Its not today. There is a murder every day or second day in Ireland.

not true. The murder rate in Ireland is 0.9 per 100,000, incredibly low by international standards. It was actually worse 10 years ago - 2007 was the peak, 1.8.
In the 90s it was usually greater than 1, so higher than nowadays.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-11th-lowest-homicide-rate-in-europe-un-report-1.3956453
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ireland/homicide-rate

tuxy wrote: »

So are you saying the Judge in this case said the same?

I don't state anything but repeating what is reported the trial judge's stated.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Statistics have more to say: some 70%+ of homicide victims world wide are male. Some 96% of perpetrators are make. What I like about Muldoon’s article is she calls a spade a spade. Ana was murdered because she was a girl. Only a fool could state otherwise. There was more to it certainly but ignoring her gender is just ridiculous.

Where Muldoon goes with it what has rattled cages; she refuses to accept that it’s simply a case of saying these two are extraordinary exceptions and that there’s a bigger problem. You can say 10 women a year isn’t a big problem: well that’s a point of view if a tad dismissive of 10 lives. You can look at the 19,000 cases of domestic violence as another sign of the bigger problem. Alternatively others here have pointed out the unique nature of the case in the age of the perpetrators: that too is a theoretical framing but one which ignores gender. Why ignore it. As an amusement to myself and a trigger to others I might say that an intersectional interpretation has something to be said for it.

We are all looking for solutions. Addressing male violence to females is needed. Why aren’t more males violent toward women and men? Is there a cultural message we pick up and others don’t? What messages do males pick up about violence and it’s uses? These are important questions. It’s not easy to ask them. Turn off the outrage that someone dared ask.

You appear to be understating the number significantly. Remarkably this understatement is roughly equal to the number of domestic violence cases where women are the perpetrators, which given more than 40% of DV palls into this category, is a very substantial number. Remarkable that, don’t know how you slipped up on that way.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The "my approach" comment was in regard to religion versus law of the land.

I've said repeatedly that I don't know what the solution is to this and I'm simply contributing to a thread on the a very horrific case and example of it. Forums like this lend themselves to "magic bullet" thinking for solutions. Like a lot of complex societal issues it will probably need a complex and ongoing response. All a forum like this can do is begin to turn the thing over and see the dimensions of it. It upsets some people to hear things that they feel is unfair or unproven or offends them or whatever but the thing has to be looked at. The Womens Aid website is well worth looking at.

What I can see is that we need to look at violence in society toward women as part of a broader continuum of attitudes to women: get the vote later, employment limitations, lower pay, should be at home etc etc.

And we can all see that violence in society is mainly male on male and I quoted stats about that earlier. That raises the question is violence against women just part of a broader question of violence?

I don't know what the answer is or if there is an answer.

I don't think that physical violence towards women has anything to do with attitudes to voting, employment, pay etc. I don't think it really has anything to do with being sexist or misogynistic. I think in most cases it is about bullies knowing that they can physically dominate their victim because men are physically stronger than women (in general). And something in their heads makes them feel better about themselves by beating someone.

You agree that most of the violence in society (murder and assault) is male on male, so shouldn't that be prioritised? Why should the murder/assault of women get so much attention if the number of victims is significantly lower than the number of male victims? Have we just decided as a society that violence committed by one man on another is acceptable or normal?

tritium wrote: »

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens?

Statistically a man is vastly more likely to be murdered, or indeed to die in a variety of other violent ways. Surely there’s greater social gain on policies that reduce the death rate there? Or indeed make no gender distinction?

In terms of violence where the parties are in a relationship, women have a similar propensity to engage in domestic violence. Again surely the greater social gain would be to focus on dealing with perpetrators and victims of both genders?

You attitude frankly shows a devaluing of the lives and well being of men and boys that is sadly all too in line with certain media outlets and their rather blatant approach to identity politics

You are not actually suggesting that as many men are murdered by their female partners or ex partners as women are by male partners/exes? Are you?

I'd really like to see the evidence for that.