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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    I agree. That's a bad practise. Ireland has very little experience in providing a good service to public transport passengers. While relatively new buses and relatively polite drivers are great, a standard of providing information to the passengers is pretty low. The biggest issue prior TFI (I actually should say NTA) was that each operator provided info the way they imagined is best which meant no standard. This is still an issue, hopefully, TFI will fix this in time (it's going very slow, though).

    I would name them as "102..." or "All 102". Alternatively, school routes shouldn't be advertised on the bus stop signs at all - this information should be available on the separate TFI school bus routes' page and available through relevant schools only.

    why, does the presence of that route information on bus stop signs confuse you? those buses stop there. the signs should show that information. that is what the signs are for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    I would name them as "102..." or "All 102". Alternatively, school routes shouldn't be advertised on the bus stop signs at all - this information should be available on the separate TFI school bus routes' page and available through relevant schools only.

    This is a terrible solution for an extremely minor problem that barely needs fixing.

    If it confuses too many people, just reserve a range of numbers specifically for school services.

    But it won't confuse people, it's a non-problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    why, does the presence of that route information on bus stop signs confuse you? those buses stop there. the signs should show that information. that is what the signs are for.
    Ok, I should step back and ask if anyone or only pupils can use these school bus routes? Apologies, I'm not familiar with school routes. I know in some areas they aren't public and only schools know about them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    MJohnston wrote: »
    This is a terrible solution for an extremely minor problem that barely needs fixing.

    If it confuses too many people, just reserve a range of numbers specifically for school services.

    But it won't confuse people, it's a non-problem.
    One of the BusConnects points was to reduce confusion, hence a simplified numbering based on spine letter and grouped routes in to one particular spine.

    Too many bus route numbers in a bus stop isn't good. Need to group routes or transform a bus stop to a bus hub in this case.

    If your solution is to drop/ignore some info in order to understand it or make it useful, then the info originally is being provided in a bad format/structure/standard.

    For such a small city as Dublin, information about public transport isn't well provided, is messy, not well structured. There still are things to improve. The problem is Irish people not seeing a problem and need of standardisation. I think it's still that Irish rural mentality talking there (blind in front of an issue due to lack of knowledge or experience). Look at other large European cities with many routes - they manage to be better organised than messy Irish public transport. Before BusConnects Dublin didn't even have a public transport routes map for all Dublin...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    Too many bus route numbers in a bus stop isn't good. Need to group routes or transform a bus stop to a bus hub in this case.

    But why is it not good? You can't simply state that as fact, because it doesn't really stand up imo.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    I agree. That's a bad practise. Ireland has very little experience in providing a good service to public transport passengers. While relatively new buses and relatively polite drivers are great, a standard of providing information to the passengers is pretty low. The biggest issue prior TFI (I actually should say NTA) was that each operator provided info the way they imagined is best which meant no standard. This is still an issue, hopefully, TFI will fix this in time (it's going very slow, though).

    I would name them as "102..." or "All 102". Alternatively, school routes shouldn't be advertised on the bus stop signs at all - this information should be available on the separate TFI school bus routes' page and available through relevant schools only.
    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    One of the BusConnects points was to reduce confusion, hence a simplified numbering based on spine letter and grouped routes in to one particular spine.

    Too many bus route numbers in a bus stop isn't good. Need to group routes or transform a bus stop to a bus hub in this case.

    If your solution is to drop/ignore some info in order to understand it or make it useful, then the info originally is being provided in a bad format/structure/standard.


    For such a small city as Dublin, information about public transport isn't well provided, is messy, not well structured. There still are things to improve. The problem is Irish people not seeing a problem and need of standardisation. I think it's still that Irish rural mentality talking there (blind in front of an issue due to lack of knowledge or experience). Look at other large European cities with many routes - they manage to be better organised than messy Irish public transport. Before BusConnects Dublin didn't even have a public transport routes map for all Dublin...

    It was you that proposed the solution of dropping some information and I agree that it is a terrible one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    It was you that proposed the solution of dropping some information and I agree that it is a terrible one.
    If school buses aren't public (only pupils allowed on bus), they shouldn't be advertised on the public bus stops - drop information. That's to reduce information noise and reduce confusion.

    However, if these school bus routes are for public, just scheduled for a few times a day and with a slight route change from the main 102, better would be to advertise as "All 102" or "102..." on a bus stop sign, if all 102 stop there. Also, strange solution is to use a small, not capital letter.

    A bus timetable under the bus stop sign is where exact bus numbers could be provided as timetables are for exact information purposes. While a bus stop sign has to be for a clear and quick information purpose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,226 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's actually more like transport in India/Morocco/Egypt than the rest of Europe i.e. you can look up the local websites but the information is not clear, website might not work, timetable could be from years ago, there's no maps, route doesn't exist any more, fares are a complete mystery or they cost whatever the driver decides on the day, it's closed today etc.

    Basically you need a local person in the know to ask if you want to travel by PT. An opportunity for a local kid to make a few dinar/rupees in exchange for a good steer. I'm surprised DB drivers don't take you to their uncle's shop instead, but that's the only difference I suppose between DB and their third world counterparts.

    I don't blame people being fearful of bus connects because to date, local knowledge was the ONLY way to navigate the system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    If school buses aren't public (only pupils allowed on bus), they shouldn't be advertised on the public bus stops - drop information. That's to reduce information noise and reduce confusion.

    However, if these school bus routes are for public, just scheduled for a few times a day and with a slight route change from the main 102, better would be to advertise as "All 102" or "102..." on a bus stop sign, if all 102 stop there. Also, strange solution is to use a small, not capital letter.

    A bus timetable under the bus stop sign is where exact bus numbers could be provided as timetables are for exact information purposes. While a bus stop sign has to be for a clear and quick information purpose.

    To clear up a question you had earlier — they are not private school buses. They are public routes, with extra frequency at school open/closing times to accommodate pupils.

    I'm also not sure you're correct on the lower-casing thing, I think that was just the poster here.

    I'd personally like to see a photo of the bus stop in question before presuming that it's badly designed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    MJohnston wrote: »
    To clear up a question you had earlier — they are not private school buses. They are public routes, with extra frequency at school open/closing times to accommodate pupils.

    I'm also not sure you're correct on the lower-casing thing, I think that was just the poster here.

    I'd personally like to see a photo of the bus stop in question before presuming that it's badly designed.
    Photo would help a lot and thanks for clarifying! Now about a different number (102p for example) vs 102 - does that mean that 102p route is slightly different than the main 102 route? What is the reason for the letter in this case?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    Photo would help a lot and thanks for clarifying! Now about a different number (102p for example) vs 102 - does that mean that 102p route is slightly different than the main 102 route? What is the reason for the letter in this case?

    The 102p is a variation of the 102 route, aka slightly different routing in parts - the same as with other routes in dublin (i.e. 7 and 7a)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    p_haugh wrote: »
    The 102p is a variation of the 102 route, aka slightly different routing in parts - the same as with other routes in dublin (i.e. 7 and 7a)
    With BusConnects we will have 98 instead of both 7 and 7A. So it will be tidy.

    I would take another example rather - 83 and 83A. When a variated route isn't very frequent, than currently DB shows them under one main route (timetable for 83A is integrated into 83 on their website), but when a variated route is frequent, they show as two separate routes even though they are still working together (25A vs 25B or 38 vs 38A).

    Funny, but routes such as 40, 40D, 40E share same number, but they are actually very different routes. Just 40 and 40D take same roads closer to city centre, but that's a common sense as there aren't unlimited options of the main direct roads. I think it's just because the numbering and routing system is so old in Dublin, that when Dublin spread and grow, Dublin Bus didn't really pay attention to a proper numbering. 40D in the beginning was more like a peak hours route with a long branch off the 40...

    What I mean - I like that with BusConnects there is an attempt to define what is a separate route (radial), separate but working together with other routes (radial spine) and what's local, peak time and express only. The first letter will define a type of route (all spines go to city centre, local are locals, peak stops in all stops and expresso will skip some stops, while regular radials won't have a spine as they will be city centre focused, but indirect and less frequent, also their timetables will be independent from other routes).

    120p structurally drops from the above list. So far it's fine. With BusConnects it will become an L81. I will be interested to see how it will be numbered for 120p departures though. Would look weird, but I have to admit, numbering as L81 and all its variantions with a capital letter in the end (L81P) would be a better option rather than picking a new number just for a few departures a day for just a variated route. Again, I wouldn't write all of these variated routes on the bus stop sign - should look like "All L81" or "L81/L81P" (if there are more L81 variantions but only these two stops in this bus stop while the other don't go this road or go but don't stop here).

    Timetables. Again, if there's a letter in the end, these departures should be integrated in the timetable of the main route - L81. If a variated route becomes frequent - it's time to renumber it or even make a radial, no more local, route.

    It's all about a neat, well structured and logical routing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Bear in mind, these extra school-time services were brought in as a temporary measure to help ease congestion on existing routes due to covid restrictions - meaning they may not be a permanent feature in a years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Citrus_8 wrote: »
    With BusConnects we will have 98 instead of both 7 and 7A. So it will be tidy.

    I would take another example rather - 83 and 83A. When a variated route isn't very frequent, than currently DB shows them under one main route (timetable for 83A is integrated into 83 on their website), but when a variated route is frequent, they show as two separate routes even though they are still working together (25A vs 25B or 38 vs 38A).

    Funny, but routes such as 40, 40D, 40E share same number, but they are actually very different routes. Just 40 and 40D take same roads closer to city centre, but that's a common sense as there aren't unlimited options of the main direct roads. I think it's just because the numbering and routing system is so old in Dublin, that when Dublin spread and grow, Dublin Bus didn't really pay attention to a proper numbering. 40D in the beginning was more like a peak hours route with a long branch off the 40...

    What I mean - I like that with BusConnects there is an attempt to define what is a separate route (radial), separate but working together with other routes (radial spine) and what's local, peak time and express only. The first letter will define a type of route (all spines go to city centre, local are locals, peak stops in all stops and expresso will skip some stops, while regular radials won't have a spine as they will be city centre focused, but indirect and less frequent, also their timetables will be independent from other routes).

    120p structurally drops from the above list. So far it's fine. With BusConnects it will become an L81. I will be interested to see how it will be numbered for 120p departures though. Would look weird, but I have to admit, numbering as L81 and all its variantions with a capital letter in the end (L81P) would be a better option rather than picking a new number just for a few departures a day for just a variated route. Again, I wouldn't write all of these variated routes on the bus stop sign - should look like "All L81" or "L81/L81P" (if there are more L81 variantions but only these two stops in this bus stop while the other don't go this road or go but don't stop here).

    Timetables. Again, if there's a letter in the end, these departures should be integrated in the timetable of the main route - L81. If a variated route becomes frequent - it's time to renumber it or even make a radial, no more local, route.

    It's all about a neat, well structured and logical routing.

    This is the sort of nonsense that mainly affects only geeks at computer screens and OCD sufferers who need everything they see to be ordered.

    The travelling public do not care one iota that they use the 46A but there is no 46, the numbering system being messy and one that has evolved rather than designed on a map by a crayonista is a non-issue in the real world for users as long as good information about what routes go where is provided.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    This is the sort of nonsense that mainly affects only geeks at computer screens and OCD sufferers who need everything they see to be ordered.

    The travelling public do not care one iota that they use the 46A but there is no 46, the numbering system being messy and one that has evolved rather than designed on a map by a crayonista is a non-issue in the real world for users as long as good information about what routes go where is provided.
    You probably think like this because you have never seen a well organised and represented public transport. It has to be clear for visitors. If it isn't - then it's not well organised. But I understand, most Irish people are disorganised and bad with attention to details, but full of pride and excuses.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1410561427656617984

    Looks very interesting and a far better solution than what we have now at places like Blanchardstown SC for example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    devnull wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1410561427656617984

    Looks very interesting and a far better solution than what we have now at places like Blanchardstown SC for example.

    Great idea..Love the colour of the buses in the drawings :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭noelfirl


    devnull wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1410561427656617984

    Looks very interesting and a far better solution than what we have now at places like Blanchardstown SC for example.

    It's really brilliant if these are going to go to construction earlier than the corridors - a proper gamechanger in terms of encouraging people towards the concept of interchanging.

    There's a dose of them here in London (admittedly, a few of which are more 'one covered stop masquerading as a station', including my local one), the more advanced ones are nigh on as important as major rail hubs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Toilets?????


  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭ITV2


    empty bottle or coffee cup with NTA branding :-):)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    ITV2 wrote: »
    empty bottle or coffee cup with NTA branding :-):)

    Unfortunately that's how it's had to be for all my time, with no facilities available many many occasions I wouldn't make it anywhere else to go but obviously if we had access at terminus or even some point on the route that would be a huge relief.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭Midnight_EG


    Unfortunately that's how it's had to be for all my time, with no facilities available many many occasions I wouldn't make it anywhere else to go but obviously if we had access at terminus or even some point on the route that would be a huge relief.

    Nothing worse than trying to cram a number 2 into a bottle :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,282 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The 32X is now based in Harristown after the H-Spine was launched on Sunday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    Seeing a lot of conductors at bus stops along the Howth Road this last week (or what looks like conductors, been so long since I saw one previously). Is this part of BusConnects also, or maybe just part of the implementation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭john boye


    Seeing a lot of conductors at bus stops along the Howth Road this last week (or what looks like conductors, been so long since I saw one previously). Is this part of BusConnects also, or maybe just part of the implementation.

    They're hardly conductors, most of them have been gone for years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Seeing a lot of conductors at bus stops along the Howth Road this last week (or what looks like conductors, been so long since I saw one previously). Is this part of BusConnects also, or maybe just part of the implementation.

    These are just a load of people hired to inform people how to use a bus like before just that the number changed to a H...


  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    Seeing a lot of conductors at bus stops along the Howth Road this last week (or what looks like conductors, been so long since I saw one previously). Is this part of BusConnects also, or maybe just part of the implementation.

    They are stance inspectors there is 2 of them on abbey street.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    ax586 wrote: »
    They are stance inspectors there is 2 of them on abbey street.

    There would be a few chief inspector there also, paid an absolute fortune too....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Just seen on Facebook that the 6 now displays "Howth Station via Shielmartin", a much more accurate display than before. I would assume similar changes have been done to the other H-spine routes.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    p_haugh wrote: »
    Just seen on Facebook that the 6 now displays "Howth Station via Shielmartin", a much more accurate display than before. I would assume similar changes have been done to the other H-spine routes.

    Was was the new 6 not called the H something..? seems silly to go away from numbers to add a new number route.


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