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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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Comments

  • #3062
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    site_owner wrote: »
    The howth interconnects 290/291 is going to use a non existent road and drop people 1km from clongriffin dart station.

    Even when the road exists (2025?) A drop off on on one side of clongriffin station is no fun. It's second only to howth junction in fortress like layout
    A slight re-routing fixes this. It would also give a better frequency on Grange Road.

    457575.png
    cherryghost wrote: »
    Chapelizod looks like its been degraded too
    https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1230/appendix-a1-30-minute-isochrones.pdf
    Chapelizod has a lot more service than it's population justifies.


  • #3063
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    More misinformation being spread this time by Councillor Chris Andrews suggesting that Sandymount will have no buses even though it will have the C1 which has the same frequency as the 1 and the S4 which has a better frequency than the 18.

    https://kfmradio.com/news/05082018-1129/listen-concerns-raised-over-dublin-bus-shake


  • #3064
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭KD345


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    More misinformation being spread this time by Councillor Chris Andrews suggesting that Sandymount will have no buses even though it will have the C1 which has the same frequency as the 1 and the S4 which has a better frequency than the 18.

    https://kfmradio.com/news/05082018-1129/listen-concerns-raised-over-dublin-bus-shake

    The C1 will not serve Sandymount Village, it will remain on the coast road. There will be no bus serving Sandymount Road.

    The S2 replaces the 18 through Sandymout - the S4 will not serve the area, operating to UCD instead.


  • #3065
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    KD345 wrote: »
    The C1 will not serve Sandymount Village, it will remain on the coast road. There will be no bus serving Sandymount Road.

    The S2 replaces the 18 through Sandymout - the S4 will not serve the area, operating to UCD instead.

    Even still the distance from the village to the coast road is less than 400m so the general area is still very much covered. DART station isin't far either. Always thought the approach roads around Sandymount Village were very tight for buses so it's probably better they didn't serve it.


  • #3066
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭KD345


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Even still the distance from the village to the coast road is less than 400m so the general area is still very much covered. DART station isin't far either. Always thought the approach roads around Sandymount Village were very tight for buses so it's probably better they didn't serve it.

    It would seem the residents disagree, the bus through the village is used for Tesco, local shops etc. The inbound stop close to Sandymount Green is incredibly busy.

    I don't see the need to re-route the new C1 bus - if by using the coast road meant it serving more homes I could understand, but it doesn't. It just makes everyone in Sandymount walk further.

    Hopefully it'll be a small issue to resolve.


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  • #3067
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    KD345 wrote: »
    It would seem the residents disagree, the bus through the village is used for Tesco, local shops etc. The inbound stop close to Sandymount Green is incredibly busy.

    I don't see the need to re-route the new C1 bus - if by using the coast road meant it serving more homes I could understand, but it doesn't. It just makes everyone in Sandymount walk further.

    Hopefully it'll be a small issue to resolve.

    God bless the residents...and their merchants.

    The Incredibly Busy inbound Bus-Stop is rarely,if ever clear of Vans,Vars and pther accoutrements,and usually ends up with the Busdriver having to compromise every rule of safety and commonsense in order to allow anybody on or off...it was particularly impressive when the 1,2 and 3 routes were operated by AD class single deck vehicles....;)

    However,I would imagine that the Roadshow for the area will result in no change at all...particularly for those locals who utilise the Bus Stops as their own personal parking spots ...:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #3068
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭KD345


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    God bless the residents...and their merchants.

    The Incredibly Busy inbound Bus-Stop is rarely,if ever clear of Vans,Vars and pther accoutrements,and usually ends up with the Busdriver having to compromise every rule of safety and commonsense in order to allow anybody on or off...it was particularly impressive when the 1,2 and 3 routes were operated by AD class single deck vehicles....;)

    However,I would imagine that the Roadshow for the area will result in no change at all...particularly for those locals who utilise the Bus Stops as their own personal parking spots ...:)

    But sure, they're only popping into Spar for a few messages - what harm? :roll eyes:

    I agree, there can be a great display of skill pulling into that stop.


  • #3069
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    There are already bus stops on the N4 which is 80km and bus stops on the 80km section of the N11 South of Foxrock Church so I don't see what's wrong with putting bus stops on the Chapelizod Bypass as long as there was footbridges or underpasses.

    What's wrong Chapelizod Hill Road or Kylemore Hill?

    The bus stops on the N4 are in sensible places. Where you're talking about sticking bus stops for the people of Chapelizod is madness.

    Do you realise the sort of gradients that we're dealing with here at Kylemore Road?

    There is literally no point to their addition, never mind the engineering that such construction would require.

    Have you ever been to the underpass there at the junction with the Old Lucan Road?


  • #3070
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    KD345 wrote: »
    It would seem the residents disagree, the bus through the village is used for Tesco, local shops etc. The inbound stop close to Sandymount Green is incredibly busy.

    I don't see the need to re-route the new C1 bus - if by using the coast road meant it serving more homes I could understand, but it doesn't. It just makes everyone in Sandymount walk further.

    Hopefully it'll be a small issue to resolve.

    It would shave some time of the journey by not going into the village lots of parked cars which causes delays as buses have to slow down. Could be scope for a bus lane along by Sean Moore Park as the road could be widened without cutting into front gardens.

    Look at Stillorgan Village for example the stops used to be busy there but people now go out onto the n11 to catch a 46a or a 145 not much issues there and Stillorgan Village used to get greater loads than Sandymount.


  • #3071
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    The bus stops on the N4 are in sensible places. Where you're talking about sticking bus stops for the people of Chapelizod is madness.

    Do you realise the sort of gradients that we're dealing with here at Kylemore Road?

    There is literally no point to their addition, never mind the engineering that such construction would require.

    Have you ever been to the underpass there at the junction with the Old Lucan Road?

    Yeah but perhaps you could do it by building Luas style steps up to the bus stops and build wheelchair lifts up kind of similar to a pedestrian flyover. Yes it's not ideal but if the alternative is sending buses through the village it could be a compromise.


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  • #3072
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Yeah but perhaps you could do it by building Luas style steps up to the bus stops and build wheelchair lifts up kind of similar to a pedestrian flyover. Yes it's not ideal but if the alternative is sending buses through the village it could be a compromise.

    That's space cadet stuff. You definitely have no idea what the area requires or the topography of the place.

    You do realise there's a whole swathe of life to be served after the village from the Mullingar House to Island Bridge Gate and on to the Croppy Acre.

    Chapelizod etc need a service, the argument going on here is that a. it doesn't need as much as it has now and b. that the Maynooth/Celbrodge buses shouldn't be the services that serve it.


  • #3073
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Can anyone clarify if its the case that under the plan the network changes will come first and the infrastructure later? If so could this not turn quickly into a mess if there is no improvement in bus lanes to go with it? It seems to me that journeys could actually get longer without the infrastrucutre present, not on all routes but the situation at Blanch SC for instance would get worse if its used as a hub but buses get held up in traffic to get into it.


  • #3074
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Can anyone clarify if its the case that under the plan the network changes will come first and the infrastructure later? If so could this not turn quickly into a mess if there is no improvement in bus lanes to go with it? It seems to me that journeys could actually get longer without the infrastrucutre present, not on all routes but the situation at Blanch SC for instance would get worse if its used as a hub but buses get held up in traffic to get into it.

    Yes, basically.

    I understand the plan is to do work at Blanch in advance.

    Overall, the issue is that progress needs to be made quickly. We can’t wait for everything to be finished before anything is changed.

    Extra buses are being added at the moment to a network that doesn’t really ‘work’ and as a result we aren’t getting much value for them.


  • #3075
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Talking to Dublin Bus, they said evasion is at about 1%. I don't know if that fully takes over-riding into account. When they did the massive crack down, evasion fell to about 0.5%

    Thought: people using the existing routes 33, 65, 84, etc. will have to change bus and tag-on / pay a second time. Over-riders won't like that.
    bk wrote: »
    I don't know how they stop people tagging-off early and not getting off, I assume the drivers just keep an eye on it.
    Well, one thing is that the read validator wouldn't work when the doors are closed / bus is moving.

    Only allow tag off at rear validator to reduce the number of people using the front door.

    Problem: The new ticketing system due within 2 years, but there will still be lots of buses with no rear door.


  • #3076
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Victor wrote: »
    Talking to Dublin Bus, they said evasion is at about 1%. I don't know if that fully takes over-riding into account. When they did the massive crack down, evasion fell to about 0.5%.

    Just because Dublin Bus don't see the evasion that goes on across the network it doesn't mean that it does not happen on a wider scale. You never see the inspectors at unsocial hours, in bad areas or at weekends or on certain routes and those cheating the system know this.

    The simple fact is the revenue protection regime across Dublin Bus is very poor. The fact I've been checked about half a dozen times in the last 10 years on what must be a few thousand trips says it all really. The odds of getting caught are so low that to many it is worth their while in taking the risk.

    The only kind of fare evasion that has reduced is that of student travel since now you need Student Leap and Free Travel Passes because they are now issued on a Smartcard even if some of the paper ones are still in circulation.

    The approach of Dublin Bus and Irish Rail appears to be if you do not see it then it did not happen, when in reality a lot more is happening and they do not see it because they have a bad revenue protection regime, although Irish Rail manage to be worse still.


  • #3077
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    Just because Dublin Bus don't see the evasion that goes on across the network it doesn't mean that it does not happen on a wider scale. You never see the inspectors at unsocial hours, in bad areas or at weekends or on certain routes and those cheating the system know this.

    The simple fact is the revenue protection regime across Dublin Bus is very poor. The fact I've been checked about half a dozen times in the last 10 years on what must be a few thousand trips says it all really. The odds of getting caught are so low that to many it is worth their while in taking the risk.

    The only kind of fare evasion that has reduced is that of student travel since now you need Student Leap and Free Travel Passes because they are now issued on a Smartcard even if some of the paper ones are still in circulation.

    The approach of Dublin Bus and Irish Rail appears to be if you do not see it then it did not happen, when in reality a lot more is happening and they do not see it because they have a bad revenue protection regime, although Irish Rail manage to be worse still.

    I've only seen inspectors on buses get in and around the city centre. I have never seen any further out than Donnybrook depot. If you get on a route which doesn't go into the city centre the chances are of getting your ticket inspected are virtually zero, it will be interesting to see Go-Ahead's approach to revenue protection as the routes which they got are all in the suburbs which don't have any ticket inspectors or at least I've never seen.

    I think many adults are using a Child Leap card as I see many people getting on buses with a 5-16 Child Leap card but are clearly older than 16.


  • #3078
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Over-riding and distraction based non scanning of tickets on the right hand validator are still the most common things I see.

    Part of the tender scoring for the routes Go-Ahead got was based on revenue protection.


  • #3079
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Yes, basically.

    I understand the plan is to do work at Blanch in advance.

    Overall, the issue is that progress needs to be made quickly. We can’t wait for everything to be finished before anything is changed.

    Extra buses are being added at the moment to a network that doesn’t really ‘work’ and as a result we aren’t getting much value for them.

    Thanks for clarifying. I realise that progress needs to be made quickly but it seems to be like a potential own goal to implement network changes when the infrastructure is not there to support it. For example the south west corridor- if Busconnects network changes implement the spine and spider system then people are going to have to change bus, fair enough. But without improvements in journey times brought about by the CPO of front gardens then surely journey times are in danger of increasing here rather than decreasing?

    To me this seems like an own goal and one that could scupper the entire plan. We already have local politicians in full blown opposition to Busconnects and if journey times increase upon implementation of the new network then there is going to be a loud chorus of I told you so from these politicians. If that happens then there will be calls to scrap the entire scheme and go back to the current network.

    Busconnects has already been a PR disaster but hopefully the public consultations will turn that around. But longer journeys for people without the infrastructure built is going to turn people against the idea altogether IMO. Not saying that is right, just that I can see it happening and egged on by rabble rousing politicians very quickly the public could turn against this altogether.


  • #3080
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    But without improvements in journey times brought about by the CPO of front gardens then surely journey times are in danger of increasing here rather than decreasing?

    Without infrastructure improvements travel times will definitely increase. Without the interchange facilities people's first impressions of changing bus is going to be negative.

    Successful delivery of this project will involve doing a lot of things right.


  • #3081
    Tarabuses
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Tarabuses


    sharper wrote: »
    Without infrastructure improvements travel times will definitely increase. Without the interchange facilities people's first impressions of changing bus is going to be negative.

    Successful delivery of this project will involve doing a lot of things right.

    Infrastructure improvement is the most crucial aspect of implementation, the key to Bus Connects' success. If this cannot be launched without delivering the promised reliability and ease of interchange then it would be better if it was deferred. The backlash will be much greater than that which occurred when the Luas cross city had its initial problems.


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  • #3082
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Can anyone clarify if its the case that under the plan the network changes will come first and the infrastructure later? If so could this not turn quickly into a mess if there is no improvement in bus lanes to go with it? It seems to me that journeys could actually get longer without the infrastrucutre present, not on all routes but the situation at Blanch SC for instance would get worse if its used as a hub but buses get held up in traffic to get into it.
    The bulk of the infrastructure will not be ready by the time bus connects route changes happen. However there will be changes to road layout and many streets will be closed to cars

    For example well have:
    Pedestrianised college green
    Car ban on George's st and bachelors walk
    One way system in rathmines terenure and stoneybatter
    Bus and access only on old cabra road and Prussia st
    There'll also be some provisional upgrades completed on the suburban hubs at the shopping centres by then

    Not perfect but much better than current set up


  • #3083
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The bulk of the infrastructure will not be ready by the time bus connects route changes happen. However there will be changes to road layout and many streets will be closed to cars

    For example well have:
    Pedestrianised college green
    Car ban on George's st and bachelors walk
    One way system in rathmines terenure and stoneybatter
    Bus and access only on old cabra road and Prussia st
    There'll also be some provisional upgrades completed on the suburban hubs at the shopping centres by then

    Not perfect but much better than current set up

    Are there any timelines in the plan when we could expect to see the above delivered and how do they compare vis a vis planned introduction of the network changes?

    As you say not perfect but I would be more concerned about a public backlash of seeing their journey times increase while we are waiting on the infrastructure. We have already had a sh1t storm from people who think they are losing their bus service but thankfully they are having it explained to them that they are not. But if people were to see their bus journeys increase by 10-15 minutes because of having to change and there is no significant improvements to infrastructure to counter-act connection waiting times then this plan could possibly be doomed to failure. Like say if people on the south west corridor currently have an hours journey and that goes up to 1hr 15 mins then they will take little comfort in the NTA planning to CPO gardens which could get messy with legal challenges. If that happens then you are immediately going to have local politicians screaming to go back to the old network. And as we know in Ireland those who shout the loudest are those who get listened to.

    I dont know what the thinking is here but surely launching such large scale changes in the network before infrastructure is built is putting the cart before the horse?


  • #3084
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I don't think that bus journey times will increase as a result of bus connects. The vast majority of people who have a direct bus currently will actually still have a direct bus after bus connects. And some routes will have instant benefits. For example the current blanch buses are always held up at old cabra road, stoneybatter and the North quays. All three of those pinch points will be removed before any infrastructure is delivered.

    The only additional delays forseeably will arise from poor connections. But overall I'd say the majority will be very pleased. Unlike luas where no traffic management plan was completed by DCC and only an unsatisfactory infrequent luas service was offered resulting in everyone being dissatisfied


  • #3085
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Qrt


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The bulk of the infrastructure will not be ready by the time bus connects route changes happen. However there will be changes to road layout and many streets will be closed to cars

    For example well have:
    Pedestrianised college green
    Car ban on George's st and bachelors walk
    One way system in rathmines terenure and stoneybatter
    Bus and access only on old cabra road and Prussia st
    There'll also be some provisional upgrades completed on the suburban hubs at the shopping centres by then

    Not perfect but much better than current set up

    Is this all in the busconnects report?


  • #3086
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Where Can You Reach with Busconnects Tool
    http://interactive.map.busconnects.ie/

    Area specific brochures here now too:
    https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-local-area-brochures/


  • #3087
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Interactive map: http://interactive.map.busconnects.ie/

    Other documents have been re-presented, with area-specific brochures. https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/


  • #3088
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The area specific docs are much easier to follow. They're just regurgitating what's already in the main doc, but I'd have no problem showing that to my parents, pretty confident that they'd understand it. Sometimes too much info together can be counterproductive.



    The interactive map is also pretty good, but the colours really need some work, it's like they're trying to hide the areas that you can't get to.


  • #3089
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Qrt wrote: »
    Is this all in the busconnects report?

    Not in report but that's how it's shaping up. The suburban hubs won't work as is, the liffey valley one would actually be physically impossible.

    CG plaza will likely go ahead before the end of this year and that will automatically mean parliament st becoming 2 way bus only and a much larger volume of buses on the quays requiring a double bus lane.


  • #3090
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,239 ✭✭✭markpb


    Victor wrote: »
    Interactive map: http://interactive.map.busconnects.ie/

    Maybe it's just me but Safari on iPhone *really* doesn't like whatever is on that page! Repeated page load, page resets because of multiple errors and then it crashed Safari completely.


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  • #3091
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I guess it's not mobile friendly as i cant use it at all with android. will have a look at it tomorrow


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