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Cromwell in Ireland

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Comments

  • #152
    cherrypicker555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭cherrypicker555


    MarchDub wrote: »
    There is a long list of reputable Irish historians who have pulled apart O'Reilly's work and revealed the serious flaws in his thesis. The most recent was historian Ciaran Brady of Trinity College on a radio programme on RTE last September in which he and O'Reilly faced off each other. O'Reilly clearly had nothing to answer with when challenged.



    The same Irish historians who teach Cromwell massacred an Irish army at Drogheda and Wexford, taught their history by priests.:rolleyes:


  • #153
    Shutuplaura
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Shutuplaura


    cherrypicker555 wrote: »
    Exile to the new world had been going on since James Ist and was not unique to Ireland, infact senting political prisoners there was more progressive then executing all of them.

    As for Clonmel, yes its defenders were Irish but fled before Cromwells army took the town.

    I dont dispute Cromwells forces would have killed most of them, but we were discussing the false held belief he massacred mostly Irish Catholics and soldiers in Drogheda and Wexford.

    Is that a widely held belief? I doubt anyone who has thought about it at all wouldn't think so. Given that towns in ireland had very strict rules about allowing Irish inside the walls, its hardly a revelation that English decended catholics were slaughtered as well as gaelic Irish.

    So let me get this straight, you are claiming Ollie was a humanitarian because he shipped policial prisoners to Barbados as slaves/indentured servants rather than killing them??? How odd. And its even more bizarre when you consider that they were normally political prisoners because they opposed the confiscation of their land by the English Parliment - to pay for their war against their (and unfortunately irelands) king.

    The Irish soldiers in Clonmel fled when the Mayor decided to seek terms. The town was approaching the end of its ability to withstand the roundheads. They had inflicted the worst setback of Cromwells military career. Not a dishonourable action considering they were heavily outnumbered.


  • #154
    Shutuplaura
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Shutuplaura


    cherrypicker555 wrote: »
    Do you dispute the fact Cromwell offered generous surrender terms at both Drogheda and Wexford ?
    Oliver Cromwell wrote:
    Sir, having brought the army of the Parliament of England before this place, to reduce it to obedience, I thought fit to summon you to deliver the same into my hands to their use. If this be refused, you will have no cause to blame me. I expect your answer and remain your servant,

    You have very bizzarre notions of generosity. It sounds more like a serious threat to me. But then you think enslavement and transportation to a disease ridden hole is lenient.


  • #155
    cherrypicker555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭cherrypicker555


    Shutuplaura wrote: »
    You have very bizzarre notions of generosity. It sounds more like a serious threat to me. But then you think enslavement and transportation to a disease ridden hole is lenient.




    Why not post the full quote ? The surrender terms were generous.

    "Cromwell's final letter to Sinnott on 11th October 1649 read as follows - it unequivocally expresses willingness to give terms:
    "Sir, I have had the patience to persuse your propositions; to which I might have returned an answer with some disdain. But to be short I shall give the soldiers and non-commissioned officers quarter for life and leave to go to their several habitations......and as for the inhabitants, I shall engage myself that no violence shall be offered to their goods, and that I shall protect their town from plunder".
    While negotiations were still proceeding, however, Stafford, the English Royalist captain of Wexford Castle (part of the town's defences), surrendered the castle, for reasons that have never been determined. The troops of the New Model Army, on their own initiative, immediately assaulted the walls of the town, causing the Confederate troops to flee in panic from their positions. The Parliamentarians pursued them into the streets of Wexford killing many of town's defenders. Several hundred, including David Sinnot the town governor, were shot or drowned as they tried to cross the river Slaney.


  • #156
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    cherrypicker555 wrote: »
    The same Irish historians who teach Cromwell massacred an Irish army at Drogheda and Wexford, taught their history by priests.:rolleyes:

    For God's sake - that really is the dumbest thing I have read here so far. Have you no idea about original sources and primary research? Jeez... what do you think a "historian" is? Someone who has read a few books and attended lectures....???


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  • #157
    Shutuplaura
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Shutuplaura


    cherrypicker555 wrote: »
    Why not post the full quote ? The surrender terms were generous.

    "Cromwell's final letter to Sinnott on 11th October 1649 read as follows - it unequivocally expresses willingness to give terms:
    "Sir, I have had the patience to persuse your propositions; to which I might have returned an answer with some disdain. But to be short I shall give the soldiers and non-commissioned officers quarter for life and leave to go to their several habitations......and as for the inhabitants, I shall engage myself that no violence shall be offered to their goods, and that I shall protect their town from plunder".
    While negotiations were still proceeding, however, Stafford, the English Royalist captain of Wexford Castle (part of the town's defences), surrendered the castle, for reasons that have never been determined. The troops of the New Model Army, on their own initiative, immediately assaulted the walls of the town, causing the Confederate troops to flee in panic from their positions. The Parliamentarians pursued them into the streets of Wexford killing many of town's defenders. Several hundred, including David Sinnot the town governor, were shot or drowned as they tried to cross the river Slaney.

    Different siege - I quoted Drogheda. Do you think he used the same note for both to save paper or something? And as you go on to show, his promises of protection in Wexford amounted to SFA when he couldn't control his army.


  • #158
    cherrypicker555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭cherrypicker555


    Shutuplaura wrote: »
    Different siege - I quoted Drogheda. Do you think he used the same note for both to save paper or something? And as you go on to show, his promises of protection in Wexford amounted to SFA when he couldn't control his army.


    At Drogheda the English royalist commander refused to even discuss surrender terms.

    Drogheda:
    On Monday 10th September Cromwell had a letter delivered to the governor, the English Royalist, Sir Arthur Aston which read:
    Sir, having brought the army of the Parliament of England before this place, to reduce it to obedience, I thought fit to summon you to deliver the same into my hands to their use. If this be refused, you will have no cause to blame me. I expect your answer and remain your servant,
    —O. Cromwell
    The contemporary laws of war were clear that if surrender was refused and a garrison was taken by an assault, then the lives of its defenders would be forfeit, as Cromwell's letter strongly implies.
    Aston refused to surrender so Cromwell opened the bombardment, his cannon battered two large breaches in the town's medieval walls from long range and on the 11 September 1649, Cromwell ordered the assault.


    Just to add, at Wexford Cromwells surrender terms were rejected.


  • #159
    cherrypicker555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭cherrypicker555


    MarchDub wrote: »
    For God's sake - that really is the dumbest thing I have read here so far. Have you no idea about original sources and primary research? Jeez... what do you think a "historian" is? Someone who has read a few books and attended lectures....???

    Is that the best you can do.

    Im still waiting for the evidence to back up the myth that Cromwell slaughtered Irish Catholics in Ireland en mass :rolleyes:


  • #160
    Shutuplaura
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Shutuplaura


    cherrypicker555 wrote: »
    At Drogheda the English royalist commander refused to even discuss surrender terms.

    Drogheda:
    On Monday 10th September Cromwell had a letter delivered to the governor, the English Royalist, Sir Arthur Aston which read:
    Sir, having brought the army of the Parliament of England before this place, to reduce it to obedience, I thought fit to summon you to deliver the same into my hands to their use. If this be refused, you will have no cause to blame me. I expect your answer and remain your servant,
    —O. Cromwell
    The contemporary laws of war were clear that if surrender was refused and a garrison was taken by an assault, then the lives of its defenders would be forfeit, as Cromwell's letter strongly implies.
    Aston refused to surrender so Cromwell opened the bombardment, his cannon battered two large breaches in the town's medieval walls from long range and on the 11 September 1649, Cromwell ordered the assault.


    Just to add, at Wexford Cromwells surrender terms were rejected.

    Yeah whatever, generous guy, hope I get someone like him in the secret santa this year.


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