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Government considering dedicated Transport Police

  • 26-10-2018 12:08am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,370 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    In IT tomorrow but pay walled for me.

    Fully support this. All i'll say though it's long past time.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    Dedicated transport police unit under consideration after violence on trains

    Conor Gallagher

    The Government is considering establishing a dedicated policing unit for public transport to address concerns of antisocial behaviour.

    Officials in the Department of Justice and the Department of Transport are examining ways of improving passenger experiences on public transport following recent increases in violence and public order incidents on trains.

    Gardaí dealt with 43 allegations of assault on trains last year, up from nine in 2016. In the first five months of this year there have been 26 assaults. Robberies have also increased from three last year to 10 in the first five months of this year.

    Passengers made 407 complaints to Irish Rail of antisocial behaviour last year, up from 246 the year before. Incidents of intimidation almost doubled to 117, while vandalism complaints more than tripled to 70.

    An Irish Rail spokeswoman said the situation appears to be worsening: “While the overwhelming majority of our 45.5 million annual journeys occur without incident, both employee reports and customer feedback do confirm that there has been an increase in the number of antisocial behaviour incidents over the past 18 months.”

    Several measures
    The company set out several measures it is taking to address the problem, including ensuring “a strong liaison and effective response to issues from the gardaí”.

    It said: “The structuring of these resources including the possibility of a dedicated Garda unit is being assessed we understand.”

    Irish Rail said: “The Department of Transport in the first instance is engaging with Department of Justice and gardaí on the issue in the wider context of public transport.”

    The Garda did not respond to questions about a potential transport unit but said it “regularly provides stakeholders, including transport providers, with Garda support”.

    The forthcoming Open City Operation in Dublin will see a Garda presence on certain late night services on Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Luas “to support public safety”, a spokesman said.

    A spokesman for the Department of Justice said it had received correspondence from the Minister for Transport which was under consideration. “It has been sent to An Garda Síochána for their views, given that the allocation of all Garda resources, including the manner in which Garda personnel are deployed, is solely a decision for the Garda Commissioner and his management team,” he said.

    Irish Rail and Transdev, which operates the Luas, contract private security companies to provide security on-board and at stations. It is understood Irish Rail spends more than €3 million a year on security costs.

    Potential option
    One potential option for a dedicated unit is the creation of a specialist unit within An Garda Síochána, similar to the traffic corp but on a smaller scale. It would have the power to deal with incidents on board as well as other transport-related offences such as the theft of rail equipment and ticket fraud.

    An alternative is the establishment of a separate police force similar to the Airport Police operating in Dublin and Cork. These specialist officers have full police powers within the State’s airports but not outside them. Similar forces are deployed on public transport in the UK, France and US.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,291 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    For the number of officers that would actually be on the ground at a given time, I think the cost of setting up a new force would be totally disproportionate. They'd have to have new offices, board of directors, new logo, IT manager, IT systems, HR manager etc. etc. Far better to set up a transport corps within AGS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    It's about time


  • Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    coylemj wrote: »
    For the number of officers that would actually be on the ground at a given time, I think the cost of setting up a new force would be totally disproportionate. They'd have to have new offices, board of directors, new logo, IT manager, IT systems, HR manager etc. etc. Far better to set up a transport corps within AGS.
    The issue is that there is one already, but it doesn't get priority from Garda management.


    A traffic police would have a narrower set of training and responsibilities than AGS staff. It would also be possible to pay them less:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    We already have Roads Policing or Traffic Corps that do not police Roads/Traffic. What's going to be different this time?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    45 million journeys annually, with 400 complaints of antisocial behaviour?

    TBH, it doesn't seem to warrant a dedicated police unit. How about Irish Rail just take responsibility themselves and increase security on trains??


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    The RPU(Formerly traffic corps) are not reserved for traffic. If you're the Galway Chief Super and you have 100 Gardai with 20 in traffic, if you're stretched you pull the traffic back to other duties. Traffic HQ in Dublin Castle can't do squat.


    If you were to do this correctly any transit corps would need to be ring fenced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,812 ✭✭✭daheff


    fantastic.

    stick them on the red luas line for a couple of months and drive the scum off it.

    sick of seeing them just not pay and luas people afraid to do anything except have them leave the luas and on the other side put the full legal force against any reasonably respectable person who forgot to pay or lost a ticket.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,812 ✭✭✭daheff


    Pelvis wrote: »
    45 million journeys annually, with 400 complaints of antisocial behaviour?


    4000 complaints is because people don't see anything happening even if they do complain. I'd wager if you spent a full 40 hour working week on the Luas Red line
    you'd see 400 incidents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,811 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Not much point in introducing a new enforcement arm if the justice system isn't reformed. All we'll have is the transport police not reacting to incidents because they will run into the same problems that the Gardaì and private security currently have to face.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Well it is positive news. Let's not denigrate it before it has even been established.

    I am a bit wary though, given that enforcement of traffic laws is abysmal. But we live in hope. At least they will have powers of arrest which current security personnel don't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    daheff wrote: »
    you'd see 400 incidents.

    Possibly, and how many security personnel would you see? Shouldn't the private companies at least make an effort to tackle the problem first?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    Its a god thing but if its part of AGS they need more resources, not to stretch their current resources even more. As others have said, our road traffic laws aren't enforced because there simply isn't enough Gardai out there to do it. The force needs a substantial increase in budget and numbers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,567 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    superg wrote: »
    Its a god thing but if its part of AGS they need more resources, not to stretch their current resources even more. As others have said, our road traffic laws aren't enforced because there simply isn't enough Gardai out there to do it. The force needs a substantial increase in budget and numbers.

    I don't buy this.. the problem with AGS is the culture in the force.

    Many Gardai just can't be bothered with doing their jobs and you see this every day and in dealings with them. That's just the day-to-day apathy.. I'm not going to even get into some of the behavior revealed in the whistleblower saga.

    Unless that changes, it won't matter how many of them there are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    daheff wrote: »
    stick them on the red luas line for a couple of months and drive the scum off it.
    IMO, give the LUAS security people more leeway on how to deal with the anti-social yobs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    To be honest I don't see it working as they can't cope or enforce most other laws as it is.

    What about all the issues on buses.

    There is no back up whats ever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭newspower


    There should be some sort of transport Police. In most European countries there is security on nearly every single train and it results in very little trouble. Yet we dont have a huge Transport set up here and we still cant police it. Disgraceful that people cannot go on public transport without worrying about what may happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    I don't buy this.. the problem with AGS is the culture in the force.

    Many Gardai just can't be bothered with doing their jobs and you see this every day and in dealings with them. That's just the day-to-day apathy.. I'm not going to even get into some of the behavior revealed in the whistleblower saga.

    Unless that changes, it won't matter how many of them there are.

    There is a definite issue with the culture in the force but that does not detract from the fact that these lads and ladies are paid a pittance for what they do and there isn't anywhere near enough of them. We should have ringfenced road traffic division and a transport police, not drawn from the current numbers on the force.

    They pick and choose what they are interested in pursuing because there isn't enough of them to pursue everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    At least they will have powers of arrest which current security personnel don't.

    Actually, they do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    JayRoc wrote: »
    Actually, they do.

    Not quite

    Private security hired in, no power

    Authorised officer of the company appointed as a revenue protection official has a warrant card and can detain subject to the provisions of the Transport Acts


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    Not quite

    Private security hired in, no power

    Authorised officer of the company appointed as a revenue protection official has a warrant card and can detain subject to the provisions of the Transport Acts

    Private Security personnel have the power of arrest. Haven't you ever seen a security guard arrest a shoplifter?

    They have the same right to arrest someone that you and I and every non-garda has. Which is substantial and usually sufficient.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    . At least they will have powers of arrest which current security personnel don't.

    I think I actually misunderstood your post, I think you were saying the gardai have additional powers of arrest to what the security have? If so apologies for correcting something you didn't say!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,157 ✭✭✭Tow


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Many Gardai just can't be bothered with doing their jobs and you see this every day and in dealings with them. That's just the day-to-day apathy..

    Much of this stems from the judicial system/lack of prison places etc. Same with any worker who regularly sees their hard work going to waste.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    A non payer stopped my train the other year security wouldn't remove him no Garda available to deal with but they waited on the Garda. Who never came. Whole line blocked for an hour or more.

    Passed about 20 Garda and cars all hanging around an eviction not 5 mins away after I left the train.

    Something needed to change. Its got to lunacy levels out there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    
    
    JayRoc wrote: »
    Private Security personnel have the power of arrest. Haven't you ever seen a security guard arrest a shoplifter?

    They have the same right to arrest someone that you and I and every non-garda has. Which is substantial and usually sufficient.

    Power to detain and power to arrest are two different things


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,654 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    An account of both high profile incidents in Portmarnock and Clongriffin and apparently the most troublesome routes are Dublin-Sligo and Dublin-Cork, according to staff.

    Sligo is not a surprise, wonder if the census figures for one or two towns on the route explain who causes the most trouble!

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/i-thought-i-was-going-to-die-that-night-violence-on-irish-rail-1.3675372


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    JayRoc wrote: »
    Private Security personnel have the power of arrest. Haven't you ever seen a security guard arrest a shoplifter?

    They have the same right to arrest someone that you and I and every non-garda has. Which is substantial and usually sufficient.

    Every person in the state has a power of arrest (often called a citizens arrest), but it is not unqualified, to carry out such lawfully the person being arrested must be suspected of committing what is known an "arrestable offence", despite it's confusing name this does not mean any offence which you can ordinarily be arrested for, rather an arrestable offence is one which carries a potential 5 year + sentence, as most offences under the Transport Act and CIE/LUAS bye-laws are not arrestable offences then pricate security staff have no power of arrest. CIE/LUAS staff however do have such powers of arrest as per statute. Transdev and TII were exploring the possibility of appointing private security as "authorised persons" to afford them the powers of arrest, must follow up on that.

    A cirizens arrest is a very risky move to make if you do not know the law, if you attempt to do so on someone who has not committed or is suspected of committing an arrestable offence then you could be in very serious trouble for making an unlawful arrest, false imprisonment or depriving some of their constitutional rights.

    Security staff can lawfully arrest someone for shop lifting because it's an arrestable offence, however try arresting someone for suspected drink driving for example and you are in trouble as it isn't an arrestable offence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    
    
    Power to detain and power to arrest are two different things

    Not really, a power to arrest is a power to lawfully detain, further detention after arrest is the iasue and once you make a lawful arrest you can detain someone as long as needed to hand them over to Gardaí.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    GM228 wrote: »
    Every person in the state has a power of arrest (often called a citizens arrest), but it is not unqualified, to carry out such lawfully the person being arrested must be suspected of committing what is known an "arrestable offence", despite it's confusing name this does not mean any offence which you can ordinarily be arrested for, rather an arrestable offence is one which carries a potential 5 year + sentence, as most offences under the Transport Act and CIE/LUAS bye-laws are not arrestable offences then pricate security staff have no power of arrest. CIE/LUAS staff however do have such powers of arrest as per statute. Transdev and TII were exploring the possibility of appointing private security as "authorised persons" to afford them the powers of arrest, must follow up on that.

    A cirizens arrest is a very risky move to make if you do not know the law v if you attempt to do so on someone who has not committed or is suspected of committing an arrestable offence then you could be in very serious trouble for making an unlawful arrest, false imprisonment or depriving some of their constitutional rights.

    Security staff can lawfully arrest someone for shop lifting because it's an arrestable offence, however try arresting someone for suspected drink driving for example and you are in trouble as it isn't an arrestable offence.


    I worked in the private security industry for ten years , I am aware of all of the above believe me! But I was making the point that private security do have the power to arrest people. We all do. It's a common misconception.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    There was a stabbing on board a Northern line service last night.

    https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/live-irish-rail-passengers-terrified-15351234

    Reporting is inaccurate. It was not a DART.


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