Clusters of Social Housing in New Developments

Colonel Claptrap · 07-06-2020 10:25am #1

Interesting article in today's business post

https://www.businesspost.ie/residential/social-homes-separated-from-private-housing-in-new-apartment-developments-d77090a5

Killian Woods examines the architectural drawings of several upcoming developments and finds that part V social housing will be mostly grouped together, either on a single street, or a segregated block, distinctly separate from the private housing.

Some local authorities and approved housing bodies have requested that homes be clustered to cut back on maintenance costs.

Lorcan Sirr, housing lecturer at TU Dublin, said mixing social housing units with other units – so-called pepper potting – could lead to better social integration.

Rebecca Moynihan, a Labour Party senator based in Dublin South Central, said: “We’ve been constantly told in the city council that ‘pepper potting’ is the best practice. You don’t want to be able to identify social housing tenants as opposed to private tenants.”

What do you think? In my own estate part V housing is segregated to a street on it's own. This minimizes the number of private owners who live next door to a social house. Pepper potting would scatter the social housing throughout the estate with a lot of private owners living next door to social housing. Pros and cons to both.

Is segregation insidious or harmless?
Would people prefer clusters or pepper potting in their estate/apartment block?

awec · 07-06-2020 10:42am

I think it depends on the number of them, but I don’t think it’s insidious, I think the point was to avoid entirely social developments as this is where problems occur. Grouping social houses together within private developments isn’t really an issue.

In my own development the social houses are beside each other, and then back on to each other. They’re surrounded by private houses on all sides.

Idbatterim · 07-06-2020 10:44am

They should definitely be housed in same street or building etc. The near free rent , excellent locations now arent enough ? Absolutely out of the question, that anyone being robbed on a mortgage or rent. Should have to live with w high chance of their life being made a misery by tie rags living next door paying nothing. Obviously far worse if it's an apartment

[Deleted User] · 07-06-2020 10:46am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Should have to live with w high chance of their life being made a misery by tie rags living next door paying nothing

typical prejudiced view of Irish people.

anewme · 07-06-2020 10:52am

I think a lot depends on the numbers. I think we have only six social (not sure if they were sold as affordable) and they were scattered through the estate. Now, 12 years later, no one could tell you which houses they were.

jrosen · 07-06-2020 10:52am

I think we need to look back on developments that have had time to settle and see what has worked and follow/make changes accordingly.

Ive lived in 2 places. One the social was scattered. The other all on one road. I cant say either was better that the other because both seemed to work really well. However the social housing was less than 6 units in both as the developments were small. I would be of the opinion the the quantity is more important than the split of the actual houses.

I think the problems stem from poor management. People who buy generally dont want to live next to social housing because of what they have experienced or because they assume with social housing comes social issues.

Idbatterim · 07-06-2020 10:54am

bubblypop wrote: »

typical prejudiced view of Irish people.

I've first hand experience of it , do you?

Colonel Claptrap · 07-06-2020 11:09am

jrosen wrote: »

I would be of the opinion the the quantity is more important than the split of the actual houses.

The 10% part V requirement is an arbitrary number.

Does it make economic sense for councils to buy up 10% of houses with a €500k price tag in an affluent area? Or would that money be better spent buying 30% of houses in a more modest development?

70:30 private/social mix is certainly not a ghetto.

StupidLikeAFox · 07-06-2020 11:10am

If there is distinct segregation it potentially leads to an us Vs them mentality. They would automatically be referred to as "the social houses" and all the associated stigma that goes with it. Pepper potting leads to greater integration and is the best practice all round - there is some research out there by Cluid I think about this

TheSheriff · 07-06-2020 11:43am

My brother bought a new build and ended up with a social house next door - it absolutely ruined his life for over a year and a half. He eventually sold up after much stress, affecting his kids, his job, his marriage.

We viewed several new developments around Dublin and our first question as first time buyers was 'where are the social housing allocation going relative to available private properties".

Whilst it's admittedly quite selfish/narrow minded on our part, we had saved for a long time to afford a house in Dublin, there was no way we would be comfortable living next door to someone who got the same house for free. It would have undoubtedly made us bitter over time.

[Deleted User] · 07-06-2020 12:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I've first hand experience of it , do you?

Of neighbours? Yes of course I have.

jrosen · 07-06-2020 12:12pm

TheSheriff wrote: »

My brother bought a new build and ended up with a social house next door - it absolutely ruined his life for over a year and a half. He eventually sold up after much stress, affecting his kids, his job, his marriage.

We viewed several new developments around Dublin and our first question as first time buyers was 'where are the social housing allocation going relative to available private properties".

Whilst it's admittedly quite selfish/narrow minded on our part, we had saved for a long time to afford a house in Dublin, there was no way we would be comfortable living next door to someone who got the same house for free. It would have undoubtedly made us bitter over time.

I would imagine your not alone.

Elessar · 07-06-2020 12:29pm

TheSheriff wrote: »

My brother bought a new build and ended up with a social house next door - it absolutely ruined his life for over a year and a half. He eventually sold up after much stress, affecting his kids, his job, his marriage.

We viewed several new developments around Dublin and our first question as first time buyers was 'where are the social housing allocation going relative to available private properties".

Whilst it's admittedly quite selfish/narrow minded on our part, we had saved for a long time to afford a house in Dublin, there was no way we would be comfortable living next door to someone who got the same house for free. It would have undoubtedly made us bitter over time.

You're absolutely right to want to know. But unfortunately it is becoming harder as at least one new development in north Dublin will 'pepper pot' social housing around the estate but the developer will not disclose where they are to private buyers. I guess it's an agreement with the local council.

Elessar · 07-06-2020 12:37pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Interesting article in today's business post

https://www.businesspost.ie/residential/social-homes-separated-from-private-housing-in-new-apartment-developments-d77090a5

Killian Woods examines the architectural drawings of several upcoming developments and finds that part V social housing will be mostly grouped together, either on a single street, or a segregated block, distinctly separate from the private housing.

Some local authorities and approved housing bodies have requested that homes be clustered to cut back on maintenance costs.

Lorcan Sirr, housing lecturer at TU Dublin, said mixing social housing units with other units – so-called pepper potting – could lead to better social integration.

Rebecca Moynihan, a Labour Party senator based in Dublin South Central, said: “We’ve been constantly told in the city council that ‘pepper potting’ is the best practice. You don’t want to be able to identify social housing tenants as opposed to private tenants.”

What do you think? In my own estate part V housing is segregated to a street on it's own. This minimizes the number of private owners who live next door to a social house. Pepper potting would scatter the social housing throughout the estate with a lot of private owners living next door to social housing. Pros and cons to both.

Is segregation insidious or harmless?
Would people prefer clusters or pepper potting in their estate/apartment block?

Segregation is the way to go at least from a maintenance perspective. The council will look after those homes and for apartments if the council needed to do work on the systems or infrastructure they might have to get permission or buy-in from other private owners if they were in the same building and that could cause headaches. Having all social apartments in one block solves all that.

salmocab · 07-06-2020 12:42pm

Elessar wrote: »

Segregation is the way to go at least from a maintenance perspective. The council will look after those homes and for apartments if the council needed to do work on the systems or infrastructure they might have to get permission or buy-in from other private owners if they were in the same building and that could cause headaches. Having all social apartments in one block solves all that.

Not sure having all the apartments together really solves that, the common areas are the property of then management company set up by the owners of the estate, the council wouldn’t have any real need to do work in common areas they would just need access to apartments if they need to fix things which they would have anyway.

Experience_day · 07-06-2020 1:15pm

Had two colleagues in 2 jobs from different walks of life have absolutely miserable experiences with it. Like absolute misery.

senordingdong · 07-06-2020 1:21pm

Segregation is the obvious way to go but the sensible thing would be to use another, more palatable word.

Bits_n_Bobs · 07-06-2020 1:26pm

senordingdong wrote: »

Segregation is the obvious way to go but the sensible thing would be to use another, more palatable word.

Apartheid?

Hubertj · 07-06-2020 2:00pm

I think the problem with pepper potting would be dealing with problem tenants. Councils don’t deal with them - as in kick them out if they cause trouble. This can be a big problem for other residents - social housing or private. If this was addressed I think people would have a different view.

senordingdong · 07-06-2020 2:06pm

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Apartheid?

No more palatable.
Like...focused or concentrated allocations.

[Deleted User] · 07-06-2020 3:18pm

Hubertj wrote: »

I think the problem with pepper potting would be dealing with problem tenants. Councils don’t deal with them - as in kick them out if they cause trouble. This can be a big problem for other residents - social housing or private. If this was addressed I think people would have a different view.

Councils have an anti social section dealing with complaints about tenants. They do indeed kick people out, eventually. Of course, they still have to house them, so they are moved.
Try to get rid of problem neighbours who own their home.......

ShaShaBear · 07-06-2020 3:27pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Councils have an anti social section dealing with complaints about tenants. They do indeed kick people out, eventually. Of course, they still have to house them, so they are moved.
Try to get rid of problem neighbours who own their home.......

My friend (socially-housed) has been lodging near weekly complaints for the past 3 years with both the gardaí and her council (neighbour is also socially-housed) as the neighbours have poisoned her dog, threatened bodily harm on her and both her children, vandalised her home and garden, and they themselves have been raided for drug dealing and possession twice in the past month alone. All evidence has been submitted in written format, video format and voice recording format. All ignored to date. Said friend has even begged for a transfer but was refused as there were no suitable places available and she is adequately housed.

Problem council/social housing tenants are a problem for everyone. And a lot of people assume that all county councils operate like they do in Dublin (which is simply not the case).

Graham · 07-06-2020 3:37pm

Mod Note

ok folks, before this turns into yet another social housing bashing session.

The question is;

clusters of social housing

or

spread around a development (pepper potting)

senordingdong · 07-06-2020 3:47pm

I can only see peppered spread being better if they are spread very, very thin.
But as pointed out, this created more work for the body that holds responsibility for them

Caranica · 07-06-2020 3:55pm

I live in a large development in D15 made up of independent clusters, all cul de sacs with their own management companies. A few years ago Fingal ditched their own social housing policy and purchased an entire cluster. I'm lucky that my cluster is well away from there as the neighbouring clusters have had lots of issues. Because of that all the residents are being tarred with the same brush. There's maybe 100 homes there. A few bad eggs are ruining it for everyone

surrender monkey · 08-06-2020 1:39pm

ShaShaBear wrote: »

My friend (socially-housed) has been lodging near weekly complaints for the past 3 years with both the gardaí and her council (neighbour is also socially-housed) as the neighbours have poisoned her dog, threatened bodily harm on her and both her children, vandalised her home and garden, and they themselves have been raided for drug dealing and possession twice in the past month alone. All evidence has been submitted in written format, video format and voice recording format. All ignored to date. Said friend has even begged for a transfer but was refused as there were no suitable places available and she is adequately housed.

Problem council/social housing tenants are a problem for everyone. And a lot of people assume that all county councils operate like they do in Dublin (which is simply not the case).

Tell your friend to engage a solicitor to write to the Council on her behalf that will make them pay attention to her.

RedXIV · 08-06-2020 1:50pm

We've started looking at houses in new developments, is there a way to discover this sort of information? I've no qualms about living next to someone who can't afford a house and is given one, as long as they don't make my life miserable

Cuddlesworth · 08-06-2020 2:37pm

RedXIV wrote: »

We've started looking at houses in new developments, is there a way to discover this sort of information? I've no qualms about living next to someone who can't afford a house and is given one, as long as they don't make my life miserable

No, the developers won't tell you now as the value of the adjacent properties would drop significantly.

ShaShaBear · 08-06-2020 3:49pm

surrender monkey wrote: »

Tell your friend to engage a solicitor to write to the Council on her behalf that will make them pay attention to her.

That is the path she is currently on, hopefully it gains notice.

On the actual topic, we currently rent in a cluster of houses that were originally all social waaay back in the 1930s. Most of the residents here now own their homes, some inherited them off parents but there are still a few that are still rented via the council. On one side of us is a council house with a part-time worker in the local nursing home. Never so much as a peep, always says hello and she's kept post safe for us and we have gotten shopping for her and given the odd lift to work when the weather was bad as she doesn't have a car.
On our other side, we have a narcissistic, perverted, paranoid and obnoxious older man who owns his home. He drinks heavily, has cameras pointed every which way, will literally watch them for when we are outside with our kids and mysteriously appear and has accused us of breaking gardening equipment out of spite (never mind having never borrowed a thing off him as we were warned). He's also been known to poison a dog or two in the area if the barking/behaviour annoys him, so we have to be extra-cautious. Next to him is another social house that had a family of settled travellers who were absolutely lovely. They often sent over leftover birthday cake, asked permission to park outside our gate when they had family over and gave us a dog bed and some toys after their own dog passed away from old age. Ironically, only have trouble from the neighbour who isn't renting from the council. Because of that, I don't think segregated social housing is the way to go. I was raised in a social housing estate, as a child only maybe two houses were purchased from the council and out of the entire cluster of maybe 150 houses, there were two families to avoid. There are many families in social housing who have regular jobs, polite and well-mannered children who don't cause trouble and who volunteer locally - they just can't, for a multitude of reasons, get granted a mortgage.

Now, in saying all of that - I have noticed that the more heavily-populated the area, the more "trouble tenants" seem to pop up. But it only takes 1 menace in a group of 10 houses to make life miserable for the other 9.

Colonel Claptrap · 08-06-2020 5:05pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

No, the developers won't tell you now as the value of the adjacent properties would drop significantly.

Developer told me when I asked.

Cuddlesworth · 08-06-2020 5:10pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Developer told me when I asked.

From what I have heard recently, the smart ones have learned not to.

Clusters of Social Housing in New Developments

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