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Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

24567…33

Comments

  • #32
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

    The end of season review was in June, there's been ongoing investigations into the club for months, Wray's initial statements were made back last March saying they were completely compliant. Since then there's been no actions made to date to release players or reduce the wage bill for this season. I think the redundancies part is only being brought into play now because they took so long to get on board and realise how deep they were.

    From what I've read of the regulations, it doesn't matter if a player doesn't play or not during the season. Unless they're injured, as long as they're available to play they count towards the cap. There's a credit given for players not available due to international windows also.


  • #33
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    awec wrote: »
    By offloading some players and having other players take salary cuts.

    Obviously they weren't able to offload enough players (this would be difficult for higher earners, as they'd need to find a club willing to pay them the same money, and obviously this is hard if you're trying to stay within a cap), and players haven't agreed to wage cuts.

    My point is the ruling came out during the season. So unless sarries were told pre season and ignored it then all their players were going to be counted this season by the time they were told they needed to offload players for this seasons budget. As was said earlier maybe the lads at the WC should’ve been cut


  • #34
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

    Theyre expected to obey the cap every season though, not just when caught.

    So its their own fault they went in to this season planning to cheat.

    Otherwise youre basically giving them this season for free to do what they want.


  • #35
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    My point is the ruling came out during the season. So unless sarries were told pre season and ignored it then all their players were going to be counted this season by the time they were told they needed to offload players for this seasons budget. As was said earlier maybe the lads at the WC should’ve been cut

    I think there's a few times in the year when they do a check on salaries. Even cutting player salaries mid season, or offloading players mid-season, could bring you under the cap for that season.

    If the wage bill was 10 million for example (made up number), Sarries would be expected to have spent ~5 million half way through the season. If they had spent 7, as long as they only spend 3 in the second half the'd be ok.

    I think.


  • #36
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Theyre expected to obey the cap every season though, not just when caught.

    So its their own fault they went in to this season planning to cheat.

    Absolutely. But the PRL should’ve just relegated them at the start instead of giving them an unattainable target 7 months down the line. Suppose they didn’t want an 11 team league or no risk to teams for performing badly


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  • #37
    RobbieRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    True ..... relegated, they will throw a lot at winning this years HC now.


  • #38
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    True ..... relegated, they will throw a lot at winning this years HC now.

    The players, coaches and back room staff will need to be motivated to do it. Highly doubt they could be if all of this is true. They'll be too busy worrying where they'll be playing their trade next season.


  • #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The big problem for me up to this point was they were clearly still over the cap as they hadn’t cut anyone. So they were using a squad they shouldn’t have to remain up in the premiership and causing another team to get relegated. That is unethical. I dearly hope they premiership gets ring fenced. This is what , their 5/6th season they’ve breached the cap, including the first time they were caught. They obviously don’t care for the rules and abiding by them so it’s bye bye for me.


  • #40
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    We are left to wonder if this will wind up being the death penalty for the club. Sponsors are going to run a mile.


  • #41
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    https://twitter.com/LauraScott__/status/1217964833653579776?s=19

    Looking quite likely now so....


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  • #42
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,978 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    We'll need another English team in the Pro14 for the derbies around Xmas time; maybe LI?

    (I may be jumping the gun a touch here...)


  • #43
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,329 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    molloyjh wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/LauraScott__/status/1217964833653579776?s=19

    Looking quite likely now so....

    Looks like it's been deleted.


  • #44
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,967 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    awec wrote: »
    I think there's a few times in the year when they do a check on salaries. Even cutting player salaries mid season, or offloading players mid-season, could bring you under the cap for that season.
    .

    The big problem for sarries doing this mid season is that most of not all other premiership clubs are running at full salary cap already, or can't afford to reach the salary cap in the first place.

    That means players can only be offloaded out of England, during the season, which is an incredibly hard thing to do.


  • #45
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,995 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »
    I think there's a few times in the year when they do a check on salaries. Even cutting player salaries mid season, or offloading players mid-season, could bring you under the cap for that season.

    If the wage bill was 10 million for example (made up number), Sarries would be expected to have spent ~5 million half way through the season. If they had spent 7, as long as they only spend 3 in the second half the'd be ok.

    I think.
    From what I'm reading, they were always going to be checked mid-season to ensure that they were going to end the season under the cap. But they clearly hadn't offloaded any players and there was no talk of pay cuts, so the other clubs would be pretty sure they weren't going to be compliant.

    The difficulty is that no Premiership club could really take on any players as they would all be up to cap anyway. So their only two options available would be to impose a pay cut or do what Bath has done with Jamie Roberts (also raises questions about Bath btw) and look overseas to get rid of players. Which is also difficult.

    THey're having a meeting with players in about half an hour, so looks like pay cuts will be discussed. Estimates say they could be as much as £1.3 million above the cap, so pay cuts will likely have to be high enough.


  • #46
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »
    Looks like it's been deleted.

    Yeah, they obviously got the wrong end of the stick. The tweet had said that relegation was confirmed and an article on it was to follow.


  • #47
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Surely when Daly joined it just demonstrate how little Saracens were really trying to reduce their wage bill?

    I know contracts were probably signed etc. But still galling to see if you are one of the other clubs.


  • #48
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Yeah, they obviously got the wrong end of the stick. The tweet had said that relegation was confirmed and an article on it was to follow.

    157VGsN_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

    Someone posted a screenshot of the tweet, I'd imagine they were told to whip it down immediately if it hasn't been officially confirmed by prl yet.


  • #49
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    crisco10 wrote: »
    Surely when Daly joined it just demonstrate how little Saracens were really trying to reduce their wage bill?

    I know contracts were probably signed etc. But still galling to see if you are one of the other clubs.

    That signing was announced this time last year. Before any of this had started.


  • #50
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    If they do get relegated - and even if its not automatic - surely morale is only going one way, what would this mean for the likes of Vunipola (x2), Itoje, George, Daly and Farrell? Can other premiership clubs even afford them? Would they go on loan even, a la Mark Wilson (of course provided Sarries make a lot of cuts elsewhere)?


  • #51
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭crisco10


    stephen_n wrote: »
    That signing was announced this time last year. Before any of this had started.

    I know, (hence my "contracts were signed"), but the optics of it toward all the other clubs are still terrible. At the exact moment they are required to be reducing their bill, they have a World Cup Final starter making their debut.

    There seems to be a lot of discretion in PRL, and this would not have helped.


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  • #52
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭crisco10


    jr86 wrote: »
    If they do get relegated - and even if its not automatic - surely morale is only going one way, what would this mean for the likes of Vunipola (x2), Itoje, George, Daly and Farrell? Can other premiership clubs even afford them? Would they go on loan even, a la Mark Wilson (of course provided Sarries make a lot of cuts elsewhere)?

    Given a lot of them are young, and will be in next world cup cycle, would a sabbatical ala Carter, McCaw at this stage actually be the worst thing for them? Assuming they can get sorted for 20/21 season obviously.


  • #53
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Problem is if they get relegated they surely can’t survive all the debt they have. Wray’s pockets might be deep, but not that deep. It could possibly mean the end of the club, which would be very sad for all the staff and supporters.


  • #54
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    crisco10 wrote: »
    Given a lot of them are young, and will be in next world cup cycle, would a sabbatical ala Carter, McCaw at this stage actually be the worst thing for them? Assuming they can get sorted for 20/21 season obviously.

    Yeah that's the thing, all are in their 20s now, george is 30 this year, but still have a lot to offer England - and should be well in contention for the next world cup as you say

    Ok, maybe George and Daly are interchangeable and affordable but the Vunipolas, Itoje and Farrell are world class players who will command a huge salary and the England national side simply cannot lose them


  • #55
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    stephen_n wrote: »
    That signing was announced this time last year. Before any of this had started.

    It wasn't just this year though that they were over. So they were willing to go over again.

    Feck them.


  • #56
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,995 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Problem is if they get relegated they surely can’t survive all the debt they have. Wray’s pockets might be deep, but not that deep. It could possibly mean the end of the club, which would be very sad for all the staff and supporters.
    Wray has reportedly written off a £45 million debt from the club. That's pretty deep as pockets go!

    Another option for them is to impose an immediate pay cut on player's salaries, but with an undertaking to make it up in the following season when they can let players go as contracts come to an end. It would mean that they'd be going into next season with some of their cap eaten up and therefore in a worse position than any other club in the premiership. Which would seem fair.


  • #57
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Problem is if they get relegated they surely can’t survive all the debt they have. Wray’s pockets might be deep, but not that deep. It could possibly mean the end of the club, which would be very sad for all the staff and supporters.

    Several sponsors will back out for sure you'd think.

    I know Sky Sports show championship games but there can't be a whole lot of tv money in that for them.

    At this stage they probably are nearly better off shelving the league (I cannot see a way out of relegation) and throwing their whole lot at Europe.

    European rugby next season and it might just save them - for now


  • #58
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    The likes of Marmion and Earls - who I believed were linked with them - must be breathing huge sighs of relief right now.

    the grass ain't always greener!


  • #59
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,995 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    jr86 wrote: »
    Several sponsors will back out for sure you'd think.

    I know Sky Sports show championship games but there can't be a whole lot of tv money in that for them.

    At this stage they probably are nearly better off shelving the league (I cannot see a way out of relegation) and throwing their whole lot at Europe.

    European rugby next season and it might just save them - for now
    The league is their bread and butter. Relegation would finish them as a club. They need to jettison players and cut salaries any way they can to stay up. Otherwise it's likely they could be completely wiped out. Europe is meaningless in terms of income.


  • #60
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    jr86 wrote: »
    Several sponsors will back out for sure you'd think.

    I know Sky Sports show championship games but there can't be a whole lot of tv money in that for them.

    At this stage they probably are nearly better off shelving the league (I cannot see a way out of relegation) and throwing their whole lot at Europe.

    European rugby next season and it might just save them - for now


    Would they be allowed to play in Europe from the Championship? I also doubt that even playing in Europe would make up for the loss of Prem money, so they'd still be asset stripped of players in the summer.


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  • #61
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Would they be allowed to play in Europe from the Championship? I also doubt that even playing in Europe would make up for the loss of Prem money, so they'd still be asset stripped of players in the summer.

    The winners get a spot irrespective of league situation.


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