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Biochar and natural farming

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    I was listening to Dr Elaine Ingham the last day, she wasn't so complementary about biochar! But, one use she did see for it was as an aid to relieve compaction which I thought was interesting.

    There's such complexity to char and not that people don't really understand it.
    If you make it the wrong way it won't work.
    If leave tars and pac's on it it won't work.
    If you don't break open the pores you're not making the best char.
    If you don't mix it with manure it won't work.

    But if you get your head around those simple facts it's the greatest thing that the planet and soil has encountered.

    Mix it with your organic material and you won't look back. The soil will become better every year.

    Have a look at the biochar Facebook groups. Albert Bates and Dr Claudia Kammann.

    If you were in the locality I'd show you paddocks that received dairy washings with char in them. Tis good stuff!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭endainoz


    There's such complexity to char and not that people don't really understand it.
    If you make it the wrong way it won't work.
    If leave tars and pac's on it it won't work.
    If you don't break open the pores you're not making the best char.
    If you don't mix it with manure it won't work.

    But if you get your head around those simple facts it's the greatest thing that the planet and soil has encountered.

    Mix it with your organic material and you won't look back. The soil will become better every year.

    Have a look at the biochar Facebook groups. Albert Bates and Dr Claudia Kammann.

    If you were in the locality I'd show you paddocks that received dairy washings with char in them. Tis good stuff!

    I'm very interested in biochar and hope to make some batches in the new year. Just wondering about how to get it in the soil. Would it bo possible to have is so dry that it would go out on a wag tail spreader? Or would it be better being added to the tanks as an additive and being spread as slurry? Or would it be best added to dung as it goes out in a much spreader?

    Sorry for all the questions, but I really do think it's a great way to improve soil health.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    If you've slurry. Mix it with slurry.

    If you've dung. Mix it with dung.
    You could add it dry to the bedding. But I've no experience with it dry and you might be coughing up your lungs in years to come.

    It'll act the very same as dung spread in a field when added to slurry in that it lasts.
    The future of slurry applied should be black slurry.
    The problem you'll get is accessing enough material.

    But slurry is easiest as you have the equipment for spreading and it's being treated.

    There's another than me at this a lot longer than I even though I never met the man.
    It should be an absolute match with organics.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/can-this-home-produced-farm-product-cut-beef-emissions-by-up-to-20pc-39549824.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Anyway. Final piece of the jigsaw.

    Added to the tanks.

    20201203-143941.jpg

    A lot better than those piddly dead microbes on the market. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    There's such complexity to char and not that people don't really understand it.
    If you make it the wrong way it won't work.
    If leave tars and pac's on it it won't work.
    If you don't break open the pores you're not making the best char.
    If you don't mix it with manure it won't work.

    But if you get your head around those simple facts it's the greatest thing that the planet and soil has encountered.

    Mix it with your organic material and you won't look back. The soil will become better every year.

    Have a look at the biochar Facebook groups. Albert Bates and Dr Claudia Kammann.

    If you were in the locality I'd show you paddocks that received dairy washings with char in them. Tis good stuff!

    Is it possible and feasible to make biochar at a farm scale level? Like say for a 100 acre farm - what would it entail to make enough biochar to make a telling difference?

    How often would you need to "apply" it?

    Sorry novice questions but just starting on the basics


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,235 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    I've made batches of it, circa 200kg, broke it up and scattered it on the slats. The soaking up of nutrients, charging it, is vital.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Danzy wrote: »
    I've made batches of it, circa 200kg, broke it up and scattered it on the slats. The soaking up of nutrients, charging it, is vital.

    So did the urea in the tanks charge it or did you add something else into it before?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Panch18 wrote: »
    Is it possible and feasible to make biochar at a farm scale level? Like say for a 100 acre farm - what would it entail to make enough biochar to make a telling difference?

    How often would you need to "apply" it?

    Sorry novice questions but just starting on the basics
    Speaking for myself. I got a 1100 litre open kiln made that cost me €1300.
    I have euro brackets on it so I don't 'handle' the char. Just throw in the feedstock by hand when I've a burn going. It's handled then with the loader.

    My thinking would every year you've slurry. But the benefits should increase every year.

    Quantities. I've seen a benefit of that 1100 litre burn in 10,000 gallons of dairy wash/slurry over not.
    They say a bit in your hand has the surface area of a football field. And that surface area traps the nitrogen and phosphorus.
    So if you've my example, multiply my 10,000 gallons by how many you'd have.

    I am getting another kiln made by the same manufacturer with a lid this time but their price has increased a bit more.
    If you've a kiln for a loader or forklift the only cost after will be your time provided you've the feedstock.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Speaking for myself. I got a 1100 litre open kiln made that cost me €1300.
    I have euro brackets on it so I don't 'handle' the char. Just throw in the feedstock by hand when I've a burn going. It's handled then with the loader.

    My thinking would every year you've slurry. But the benefits should increase every year.

    Quantities. I've seen a benefit of that 1100 litre burn in 10,000 gallons of dairy wash/slurry over not.
    They say a bit in your hand has the surface area of a football field. And that surface area traps the nitrogen and phosphorus.
    So if you've my example, multiply my 10,000 gallons by how many you'd have.

    I am getting another kiln made by the same manufacturer with a lid this time but their price has increased a bit more.
    If you've a kiln for a loader or forklift the only cost after will be your time provided you've the feedstock.

    Interesting stuff

    Have you photo's of your kiln? Good idea to have it on the loader


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Speaking for myself. I got a 1100 litre open kiln made that cost me €1300.
    I have euro brackets on it so I don't 'handle' the char. Just throw in the feedstock by hand when I've a burn going. It's handled then with the loader.

    My thinking would every year you've slurry. But the benefits should increase every year.

    Quantities. I've seen a benefit of that 1100 litre burn in 10,000 gallons of dairy wash/slurry over not.
    They say a bit in your hand has the surface area of a football field. And that surface area traps the nitrogen and phosphorus.
    So if you've my example, multiply my 10,000 gallons by how many you'd have.

    I am getting another kiln made by the same manufacturer with a lid this time but their price has increased a bit more.
    If you've a kiln for a loader or forklift the only cost after will be your time provided you've the feedstock.

    Also more importantly roughly how much feedstock are you talking about to make the 1100 litres?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Panch18 wrote: »
    Interesting stuff

    Have you photo's of your kiln? Good idea to have it on the loader

    20200411-163536.jpg

    20200411-150613.jpg

    20200123-124527.jpg

    Next one I'm getting made will just be longer with same capacity to take a pallet board without cutting. And a lid just to try dry char.

    Here's a study I read a while ago of a Swedish farm using a German biochar burner for drying corn and heating the house and using the char on the farm.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652620349179


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Panch18 wrote: »
    Also more importantly roughly how much feedstock are you talking about to make the 1100 litres?

    The boards of eight fert pallets does a half kiln. So I reckon 16 would fill it. I don't use the middle boards with nails.
    A quarter bale of an 8 x 4 x 3 of miscanthus filled it. When I had access to miscanthus.
    Don't use timber with any preservative or chemicals on them. The fert pallet would be fine as it's clean timber.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭Gillespy


    A smaller skip like those tipping ones made for forklifts would be a good base to start. Right shape just need a small few tweaks. Find a nice one second hand and you have a cheap entry into it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Gillespy wrote: »
    A smaller skip like those tipping ones made for forklifts would be a good base to start. Right shape just need a small few tweaks. Find a nice one second hand and you have a cheap entry into it.

    I was thinking the same thing a few weeks ago. It just needs a flat top.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    For a smaller burner and very cheap I got a beer keg, cut the top off it. Ya fill it with timber. Put it upside down in a barrel. Drill air holes in the side of the barrel about 2 inches from the bottom and fill with scrap wood. Light at the top and itll burn down


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,452 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    ganmo wrote: »
    For a smaller burner and very cheap I got a beer keg, cut the top off it. Ya fill it with timber. Put it upside down in a barrel. Drill air holes in the side of the barrel about 2 inches from the bottom and fill with scrap wood. Light at the top and itll burn down

    Have you photos?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Have you photos?

    The pics I have arent great. I'll take more over the weekend.
    The lid and chimney help draw in air from the bottom


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    Everytime i look at this thread my head feels like it is going to explode. Ye are all like mad scientists / alchemists.

    Say my name, can you recommend a good article that explains this in simple terms for the Dublin thicko here ?

    I was reading an article over in the vegan forum ( don't ask ) from Gary kk on soil and the damage a new study has found on how artificial fertiliser basically destroys the soil ( i think gawddoginit posted something similar in another thread some time ago ).

    The new study says that adding carbon is the best way to go, so I'm wondering would this be the magic biochar sprinkled on cow manure ? Dont have access to slurry locally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    How soil builds carbon is from exudates.
    What this means is the roots of plants exude a substance.
    This substance is sucrose? or sugar.
    They exude sugar because they need the help of bateria and fungi to access food.
    The bacteria and fungi feed on the sugar and in return break down and make available all the elements in the soil in a way that the roots can digest them.

    Think of the soil and bacteria and fungi as your stomach. The bacteria and fungi break down the food and make it available to your gut linings. The roots in the soil are the gut linings.

    The bacteria and fungi are born, fed, live and die. It's their dead bodies and the crap and piss from living that is the soil carbon.

    When you apply artificial fertilizer (nitrogen) it's a salt based solution. This makes plants work harder to access nutrients and these nutrients are usually only from the farm management. It switches off/or slows down the relationship with the bacteria and fungi and thus no sugars are being fed back to bacteria and fungi as the plant is getting fed by the bag. Less bacteria and fungi mean less carbon is made in the soil.

    Bacteria and fungi are also damaged by tilling the soil, having sunlight on soil, no plant cover, fungicides, herbicides and pesticides. All these mean less carbon is made and stored in soil.

    Biochar is carbon dioxide taken in by plants, turned into carbon in the living plant to support the plant structure, that plant then is cooked at a high temperature to leave that carbon in a very pure form that bacteria and fungi are unable to eat and digest.
    Instead they take up residence inside the pores of the biochar where they form colonies in the char and themselves are not subject to the normal kill or be killed life in normal soil. The biochar increases the biodiversity of bacteria and fungi. Carbon then forms around the char in the soil from this extra bacteria and fungi living in the char from those that do venture out.

    Extra carbon in soil means more nitrogen and phosphorus is captured by the carbon and not leached down and off.
    But too much carbon is not the be all and end all either and plants don't do well if there's an abundance of carbon. Plants are fine in warm countries with an abundance of carbon as the respiration of soil leaves behind sodium that makes the plant work that bit harder to access nutrients. If you're in a country with a lot of soil carbon, a lot of rainfall, cold conditions with not much evaporation, your plant won't do well.

    As you can see it's all a balancing act.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    OK really appreciate the time and effort posting that man. I think I've got the idea. So the occasional short drought is not a bad thing say in the likes of grassland ? As I know with irrigation salnization can be an issue.

    So my next question is if I was to reseed a field with native grass types would I get away without having to spread fertiliser on it every year ? I know the local farmer beside me has meadows going back probably hundreds of years and he never applies fertiliser to them. But he does not have big stocking rates. Was thinking of spreading manure and add the biochar to it if this little partnership comes off im working on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    NcdJd wrote: »
    OK really appreciate the time and effort posting that man. I think I've got the idea. So the occasional short drought is not a bad thing say in the likes of grassland ? As I know with irrigation salnization can be an issue.

    So my next question is if I was to reseed a field with native grass types would I get away without having to spread fertiliser on it every year ? I know the local farmer beside me has meadows going back probably hundreds of years and he never applies fertiliser to them. But he does not have big stocking rates. Was thinking of spreading manure and add the biochar to it if this little partnership comes off im working on.

    The occasional short drought is ok in grassland if they've good carbon amounts built up. That grassland will power away growing.
    It's the grassland that hasn't got the same carbon built up as the other and is applying artificial nitrogen freely that'll have the double whammy of not having the carbon and having increased sodium content in the soil that'll shut down the plant from growing.

    My plant above in the thread in 100% biochar/carbon was treated with sea minerals. That carbon won't degrade like a natural carbon in soil but it behaves in the same way as the sodium was needed to grow a plant (well) in it.

    Biochar with animal manure. Yes.

    But don't forget you need a eye on making money too. Not just for the sake of doing it. But it's ok if it's a hobby too.
    It's the partnership is making me think you see a business when it might not be.

    There's some farmers getting away with no fert applied with these new multi species swards but I've only seen them (online) for the first year and they looked to have had black good carbon soils to start off with anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    The occasional short drought is ok in grassland if they've good carbon amounts built up. That grassland will power away growing.
    It's the grassland that hasn't got the same carbon built up as the other and is applying artificial nitrogen freely that'll have the double whammy of not having the carbon and having increased sodium content in the soil that'll shut down the plant from growing.

    My plant above in the thread in 100% biochar/carbon was treated with sea minerals. That carbon won't degrade like a natural carbon in soil but it behaves in the same way as the sodium was needed to grow a plant (well) in it.

    Biochar with animal manure. Yes.

    But don't forget you need a eye on making money too. Not just for the sake of doing it. But it's ok if it's a hobby too.
    It's the partnership is making me think you see a business when it might not be.

    There's some farmers getting away with no fert applied with these new multi species swards but I've only seen them (online) for the first year and they looked to have had black good carbon soils to start off with anyway.

    Thanks man that's great information. It's more of a supply type thing on my behalf. Have briefly looked at costs and price selling and seems like a good margin. Start up costs ALOT lower than veg.I'll have a market on this unlike the veg end of things. Final nail in the coffin on that came last week when a long time established spud grower told me he has 200 acres of spuds sitting in his sheds as the spud wholesalers have decided to take the cheaper UK ****e and he's in an awful way over it. So I'll try something else :) won't go into details yet as only in the preliminary stages at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Actually this popped up on my feed.

    It's samples of soil and one engineered soil made from biochar that were sent up to the international space station to see how they perform up there.

    https://www.prweb.com/releases/history_in_the_making_bio365_soil_being_tested_on_the_international_space_station/prweb17589275.htm

    Might interest ncdjd and a few others. Link to the bio365 company is in the link.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Water John was wondering about my hot tub!!?

    20201214-112644.jpg

    Lid an all for the simmering option.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Probably should update the progress on the JMS applications.

    Grass is looking good from it.

    Top two pics received it first. Bottom two about three days later. It's a positive anyway.

    20201220-125245.jpg

    20201220-125348.jpg

    20201220-130424.jpg

    20201220-130450.jpg

    15 acres in total got an application.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Probably should update the progress on the JMS applications.

    Grass is looking good from it.

    Top two pics received it first. Bottom two about three days later. It's a positive anyway.

    20201220-125245.jpg

    20201220-125348.jpg

    20201220-130424.jpg

    20201220-130450.jpg

    15 acres in total got an application.
    Did you leave any areas as a comparison?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Did you leave any areas as a comparison?

    I have fields beside those for comparison.
    But they'd all their own variables.
    There's a field beside the bottom two pics which got seaweed + molasses in October and gran lime which is good too and grazed earlier but it looks like the jms ground has caught up with it. That gran lime ground will get straight jms.
    Then there's a bit across a laneway that got fym which is not too bad but lacking colour. So it'll get jms plus seaweed.

    Then I've fields beside the top two which were grazed in the last few weeks. But they're tough sods anyway.

    To me the jms has made the ground a bit more free draining than before and the tracks from spraying in the unfavourable conditions for traveling but perfect for jms have largely disappeared.

    If I can jig around a bit with housing for brewing and depending on weather I hope to cover the farm with it ..based on this little trial.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    A well researched presentation by Stephen McCormack of the Irish Bioenergy Association on an introduction to Biochar and Biochar in Ireland.

    https://youtu.be/k_0ubDhUU2I


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Finishing up on one of the paddocks in the jms anaerobic biota trial.

    It's a few days since they were out last.

    What surprised me was the growth in those few flooding wet days. Jms seems to like floods..

    20210225-113227.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,039 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    There's two pages in this week's Irish Country Living section of the Farmers Journal devoted to two Limerick farmers, Kevin Wallace and Thomas Stack who use Korean Natural Farming methods for anyone interested.


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