Opinions on a hand?(includes hand history)

califano · 29-09-2005 11:35pm #1

Your opinions on the hand please including:

Q: What do you think i should have done?
Q: What did i do?

$25 NL - 9 Seats 4786726-60 Holdem No Limit 200/400
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Hand Start.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 4 : rounders123 has $6,060
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 7 : cazarez007 has $8,850
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 9 : deadprez has $3,090
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : cazarez007 is the dealer.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : deadprez posted small blind.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : rounders123 posted big blind.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Game [60] started with 3 players.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 4 : rounders123 has 8h Th
[Sep 29 21:45:46] : cazarez007 called 400
[Sep 29 21:45:47] : deadprez folded.
[Sep 29 21:45:49] : rounders123 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:49] : Dealing flop.
[Sep 29 21:45:49] : Board cards [Ah 5d 9s]
[Sep 29 21:45:51] : rounders123 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:52] : cazarez007 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:53] : Dealing turn.
[Sep 29 21:45:53] : Board cards [Ah 5d 9s Tc]
[Sep 29 21:45:53] : Stakes: 200/400 Current level: 6 Next level in: 4 min.
[Sep 29 21:45:55] : rounders123 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:57] : cazarez007 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:57] : Dealing river.
[Sep 29 21:45:57] : Board cards [Ah 5d 9s Tc 8c]
[Sep 29 21:46:01] : rounders123 bet 800
[Sep 29 21:46:04] : cazarez007 called 800 and raised 7,650 and is All-in

cazarez007 playing pretty well so far. mostly winning pots without showing, rarely overbetting like this and occasionally checking down to win a pot. i ask the above questions because its a situation i often come across in similar circumstances with varying results.

Lafortezza · 29-09-2005 11:42pm

I think it's a fold, too many 2 pair hands beat you, maybe he was slowplaying from the flop and maybe the 8 filled a straight for him. You haven't invested too much in the pot and unless you know Villain is capable of bluffs like this then I'd fold.

I'd say you called and Villain showed down something like J7o.

NickyOD · 30-09-2005 12:03am

Looks a lot like he is just trying to snap off a weak bet thinking no one can call him. From your description of him I thnk he has absolutely nothing. Unfortunely you can't call him because its possible the other guy just made the nut straight or has the ignorant end or something else that beats your 2 pair.

Tyr · 30-09-2005 12:04am

think so to. If he did slow play it from the flopp he wouldent go all in whit 2 pair when a str8 possible comes out and u bet on it he would probebly call. Or it was a bluff but alot of hands made a str8 at that table. But he called so would put him on conectors like 67suited or QJoff. AA is a possibilty to. he hoped for a raise preeflopp dident get it, flopped highest sett so he could just check and hope u were trying to bluff.

Ste05 · 30-09-2005 12:28am

This is a tricky one - I think I'd have to fold too, you just have no info, he either has you hammered or it's a stone cold bluff. You're still in healthy state to win the tournament if you fold, so maybe discretion is the better part of valour and all that.....

I don't know what else you could have done here either, couldn't really bet on the turn to find out where you stand with that A there, think you have to fold and and move on... Could anyone see their way to a little probe bet on this turn???

I have a feeling he has a bare A, and is a bit tilty after playing it badly, but could easily have JQ too, not sure why he did this huge bet though, I'm sure he doesn't put you down as a calling station fish and there's no value in this bet with a made hand,

oh my head hurts thinking about this play, very very odd the more I think about it????
What did you do??

Tyr · 30-09-2005 12:56am

i realy think he had AA or mayby AK. Preeflopp call whit the river bet feals like he wanted to trap u preeflopp. and whit that A on the flopp he couldent bet if he wanted more chips of you. and a bit panic on the river

padraig_f · 30-09-2005 2:09am

I'd be tempted to call this. Two-pair seems kind of unlikely to me - being last to act, I thought he'd surely have bet his hand before the river.

The rivered straight is the only thing I can see him having that beats you. But I'm just thinking about what he thinks you have. It's been checked down to the river and then you fire at it, he probably puts you on either a single pair or a bluff. So I would've thought with a straight, he'd be looking to get paid off a bit more.

It's not like you've raised pre-flop and may be married to your hand, he can expect to be called here very rarely, which makes me suspect he doesn't have it.

Tyr · 30-09-2005 4:37am

padraig_f wrote:

I'd be tempted to call this. Two-pair seems kind of unlikely to me - being last to act, I thought he'd surely have bet his hand before the river.

The rivered straight is the only thing I can see him having that beats you. But I'm just thinking about what he thinks you have. It's been checked down to the river and then you fire at it, he probably puts you on either a single pair or a bluff. So I would've thought with a straight, he'd be looking to get paid off a bit more.

It's not like you've raised pre-flop and may be married to your hand, he can expect to be called here very rarely, which makes me suspect he doesn't have it.

I agree whit you but not many people puts 5640 chips on stake to win 1600 chips (only 400 is your own) when you have absolutly no idee what the other player have. + if got cught he would be the lowstack if he did the wrong desition.
He got no info becouse of the BB and no bets to the river. So i think its hard to belive he did a stonecold bluff whit all possible hands out there. 3 hands would make a str8 for example.

ntlbell · 30-09-2005 5:57am

I can't understand the all-in here apart from scare tactics, surley if he has made the hand he would re-raise but make it cheap enough for you to call, I agree with nicky I think he's nothing here and I call.

I think you should call and go on to take it down

I think you did call, he showed air, and you took it down

Culchie · 30-09-2005 9:30am

I think I would have raised pre-flop to try and define villians hand first of all.

If he called, I'd have another stab it with the scare card Ace that fell on the flop.

I think he had 6 7 and all the free cards let him fill his straight.

You called

califano · 30-09-2005 10:22am

Sep 29 21:46:09] : rounders123 called 4,860 and is All-in
[Sep 29 21:46:10] : Showdown!
[Sep 29 21:46:12] : Seat 7 : cazarez007 has Td 9h
[Sep 29 21:46:12] : cazarez007 has Two Pair: 10s and 9s
[Sep 29 21:46:12] : rounders123 has Two Pair: 10s and 8s
[Sep 29 21:46:12] : cazarez007 wins 12,320 with Two Pair: 10s and 9s

the below thoughts were actually the reasons why i called. thing is even though i called and lost i still dont know if this is a bad call or what?. i just thought it was a strange bet by him seeing as i didnt show any great strenght and ruled out the str8 as players usually want to get a customer to call if theyve made one and theyre not usually going to get a call with an all in bet.

Padraig f: I'd be tempted to call this. Two-pair seems kind of unlikely to me - being last to act, I thought he'd surely have bet his hand before the river.

Nicky: Looks a lot like he is just trying to snap off a weak bet thinking no one can call him.

Ste05: I have a feeling he has a bare A, and is a bit tilty after playing it badly.

Ntlbell: I can't understand the all-in here apart from scare tactics, surley if he has made the hand he would re-raise but make it cheap enough for you to call.

Culchie · 30-09-2005 10:28am

So the pre-flop raise and bet (if necessary) would have sealed the deal then

Hectorjelly · 30-09-2005 10:29am

Culchie wrote:

I think I would have raised pre-flop to try and define villians hand first of all.
QUOTE]

Your kidding right?

As for the hand Id fold unless I thought that his actions signified a bluff, he could well have limped with AA or JQ or be overplaying a rivered 2 pair; all of which beat you. Your hand can only beat a bluff because one pair isnt going to go all in on the river

Culchie · 30-09-2005 10:35am

No, I'm not kidding.

3 players left, one limps into me in the big blind, I would have raised here to try and steal the pot and/or get some idea what sort of hand villian has.

What's wrong with that play?

califano · 30-09-2005 10:37am

Culchie wrote:

So the pre-flop raise and bet (if necessary) would have sealed the deal then

definately not. he was dealer so no blinds on him. he chose to call 400 so i know he had a better starting hand than me already because of this. i was just happy to see a flop. wouldnt have shook him off on the flop either because he had made a pair and he rightly would not have believed i had a ace otherwise i would have raised pre flop if i had.

Culchie · 30-09-2005 10:42am

rounders123 wrote:

definately not. he was dealer so no blinds on him. he chose to call 400 so i know he had a better starting hand than me .

He doesn't know that though, people like to limp to see cheap flops as well as slow playing aces, I would have tried to steal.

rounders123 wrote:

wouldnt have shook him off on the flop either because he had made a pair and he rightly would not have believed i had a ace otherwise i would have raised pre flop if i had.

Understandable. The pre-flop raise was needed to try and then represent the ace.

NickyOD · 30-09-2005 10:45am

Culchie wrote:

No, I'm not kidding.

3 players left, one limps into me in the big blind, I would have raised here to try and steal the pot and/or get some idea what sort of hand villian has.

What's wrong with that play?

What's wrong is you're assuming that you won't get called. I come across this problem with passive players all the time. Limpng with hands they should be open raising with. I would be more afraid of the SB calling the raise than the Button since he could decide not to raise because of his position. 8T is a hand you want to see a 3 handed flop with cheaply.

califano · 30-09-2005 10:48am

Culchie wrote:

The pre-flop raise was needed to try and then represent the ace.

thats ballsy alright but a dangerous business to be raising limpers with trash in your BB. if he called a pre-flop raise what then, it obliges me to make continuation bets and i hate being obliged to make continuation bets.

Culchie · 30-09-2005 10:49am

NickyOD wrote:

What's wrong is you're assuming that you won't get called. I come across this problem with passive players all the time. Limpng with hands they should be open raising with. I would be more afraid of the SB calling the raise than the Button since he could decide not to raise because of his position. 8T is a hand you want to see a 3 handed flop with cheaply.

Of course I don't want to get called, I'm trying to steal.... as you do. Small Blind had folded.
I've a better chance of winning the pot with a steal than playing 8 T.

Iago · 30-09-2005 11:08am

rounders123 wrote:

thats ballsy alright but a dangerous business to be raising limpers with trash in your BB. if he called a pre-flop raise what then, it obliges me to make continuation bets and i hate being obliged to make continuation bets.

Just keep throwing money at the pot, he'll go away eventually

NickyOD · 30-09-2005 11:10am

Culchie wrote:

Of course I don't want to get called, I'm trying to steal.... as you do. Small Blind had folded.
I've a better chance of winning the pot with a steal than playing 8 T.

It's not about increasing your chances of winning the pot but which play will make you more chips in the long run. You'll get called behind your raise here too often to make it worthwhile. If you're going to raise at all then you should just go all in preflop because you've only got 15 BBs, but I don't like that play. All too often you get called by a passive player who rarely raises preflop.

Culchie · 30-09-2005 11:12am

Iago wrote:

Just keep throwing money at the pot, he'll go away eventually

Hmmm, this is getting interesting.

So.... no such thing as a steal when one limper into me in the BB who on the balance of probabilities probably has a mediocre hand rather than a great hand, and then if I do get called, and an Ace flops, no continuation bet representing an Ace to follow through on the steal/bluff move.

Obviously I'm a complete maniac.

Iago · 30-09-2005 11:20am

There's nothing wrong with steal attempts or continuation bets at the right time.

3 handed in an STT when the small stack has folded and the big stack has limped from the button isn't the time to be raising on a steal. He could be slowplaying a huge hand, or holding a marginal hand that 3-handed he's willing to take a chance on.

If an A or a K lands and he's called a preflop raise, can you justify a continuation bet? Particularly when doing that would commit a significant part of your stack between the preflop raise and the extra bet. I just don't think you have the scenario here where that will work, or at least you don't have it often enough to justify doing it everytime.

My earlier comment was a throwaway btw, I'm a firm believer in continuation bets if you have a read on the player. Some times I genuinely believe that if I just keep betting he'll fold eventually, it's been more profitable than you would think

Ste05 · 30-09-2005 11:26am

I'll chime in here with Culchie too, as has been said here many times (by Nicky in particular), you're playing your opponent and not your fantastic holding here, Would you fold it to a min raise here ???? He's limped in on the Button, it's down to 3 players, do you really think he has AA?? you're defending your BB from this guy limping in the future, lay down a marker so he knows not to bother trying to limp, fold or raise... no limping!!! Then see what happens, just my 0.2c - I just hate limping......

EDIT:
Even though the short stack has folded here you still need to take the lead at this point in the tournament IMHO, if you get called decide after the flop what you're going to do and use the history of the table to see if a Cont. bet will work...
The other big stack will be as wary of you are you are of him.....

Culchie · 30-09-2005 11:34am

Iago wrote:

There's nothing wrong with steal attempts or continuation bets at the right time.

3 handed in an STT when the small stack has folded and the big stack has limped from the button isn't the time to be raising on a steal. He could be slowplaying a huge hand, or holding a marginal hand that 3-handed he's willing to take a chance on.

If an A or a K lands and he's called a preflop raise, can you justify a continuation bet? Particularly when doing that would commit a significant part of your stack between the preflop raise and the extra bet. I just don't think you have the scenario here where that will work, or at least you don't have it often enough to justify doing it everytime.

My earlier comment was a throwaway btw, I'm a firm believer in continuation bets if you have a read on the player. Some times I genuinely believe that if I just keep betting he'll fold eventually, it's been more profitable than you would think

For me, it's a perfect opportunity for steal attempt. However I take your point on board as well. I suppose I should back up why I'm stealing here.

1. Personally if I am on the button, and it's 3 handed, and I've a strong hand, then I'm raising (hence my read that villan has mediocre hand)

2. Limpers sometimes have extremely strong hands, but generally from early position at full tables, and are expecting raises behind them. Limpers more often than not want to see cheap flops (as this guy did), another reason why I'm trying to steal here.

3. The Ace on the flop is perfect for the follow on bet. If Limper had Ace on the button, would he not have raised? I did raise pre-flop, so surely it at least looks like that limpers 9 10 is beaten now (from his point of view)

Sure if my continuation bet was called, I'm beat and I've lost chips, but I'm not going to lose 4860 chips either as the previous action has help defined the situation.

Maybe a bluffing thread would be a good idea?

califano · 30-09-2005 11:44am

still who wants to get clever with the biggest stack yet especially as deadprez only has $3,090. usually at this stage of the game 3 handed a limper on the button will call a raise unless its substantial. theres just no need to tangle with the large stack unnecessarily with raises like this without a bit of a hand.

NickyOD · 30-09-2005 11:47am

rounders123 wrote:

still who wants to get clever with the biggest stack yet especially as deadprez only has $3,090. usually at this stage of the game 3 handed a limper on the button will call a raise unless its substantial. theres just no need to tangle with the large stack unnecessarily with raises like this without a bit of a hand.

so what happened

Iago · 30-09-2005 11:51am

There is an argument to be made for stealing, I just think that with the relative stack sizes and the stage the STT is at, you'll get better opportunities to steal or have a go at a hand than this...

1. If you're on the button, chip leader and it's 3 handed then you're in early position. Why raise here when nobody is going to call? How many sets of blinds would you have to win to make this more profitable then limping and letting one or the blinds hit top or middle pair and make a semi-bluff where you can take all of their chips? Sure you run the risk of them outdrawing you, but I think the benefits outweigh the risk.

2. See above, although say he has a marginal hand like A2-6o and doesn't want to risk raising just in case there is a big hand behind him, or again thinks that by limping you'll never put him on an A. You raise, and now as chip leader he has a decision, are you stealing or on a genuine hand? 3 handed a "genuine" hand could be as bad as QJ, does he want to re-raise and force a decision or flat call and hope you don't have an A? Personally I wouldn't want to force this thought process with a hand like T8s

3. It does look like T9 is beaten, but instead of taking this hand in isolation look at a huge number of hands in this position and rethink what he might have preflop. Then look at the new situation, you're proposing a raise preflop If he has called a preflop raise as your suggesting, do you think you're ahead here, or running into trouble?

You're right about not losing all your chips, but I would argue that the chips shouldn't have been lost here either. You don't need to risk all your chips as was done in this hand against the chip leader who has to have you beat unless he's completely bluffing. why would he bluff from this position when he has no need to?

That's just my thought process and I'm sure there's a better way of thinking but that's where I would be with this hand.

Culchie · 30-09-2005 11:52am

rounders123 wrote:

still who wants to get clever with the biggest stack yet especially as deadprez only has $3,090. usually at this stage of the game 3 handed a limper on the button will call a raise unless its substantial. theres just no need to tangle with the large stack unnecessarily with raises like this without a bit of a hand.

He's probably thinking the same thing sitting there with his 9 10

Different Strokes for Different Folks I guess.

califano · 30-09-2005 12:36pm

Culchie wrote:

He's probably thinking the same thing sitting there with his 9 10

Different Strokes for Different Folks I guess.

ah yeah i see your points and take them on board and all. of course yes he could be limping in cheaply with a poor holding hoping to hit as we all do. ive tried raising before in the BB with one limper of course and they have folded,called and raised so its interesting but im always kicking myself when they call or raise. so generally if i get this sort of hand in the BB and there is a limper i assume he has a better hand than me as he doesnt have to commit his chips and i do so im happy to see a cheap flop.

winbotter · 18-06-2015 3:09am

califano wrote: »

Your opinions on the hand please including:

Q: What do you think i should have done?
Q: What did i do?

$25 NL - 9 Seats 4786726-60 Holdem No Limit 200/400
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Hand Start.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 4 : rounders123 has $6,060
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 7 : cazarez007 has $8,850
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 9 : deadprez has $3,090
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : cazarez007 is the dealer.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : deadprez posted small blind.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : rounders123 posted big blind.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Game [60] started with 3 players.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Sep 29 21:45:39] : Seat 4 : rounders123 has 8h Th
[Sep 29 21:45:46] : cazarez007 called 400
[Sep 29 21:45:47] : deadprez folded.
[Sep 29 21:45:49] : rounders123 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:49] : Dealing flop.
[Sep 29 21:45:49] : Board cards [Ah 5d 9s]
[Sep 29 21:45:51] : rounders123 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:52] : cazarez007 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:53] : Dealing turn.
[Sep 29 21:45:53] : Board cards [Ah 5d 9s Tc]
[Sep 29 21:45:53] : Stakes: 200/400 Current level: 6 Next level in: 4 min.
[Sep 29 21:45:55] : rounders123 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:57] : cazarez007 checked.
[Sep 29 21:45:57] : Dealing river.
[Sep 29 21:45:57] : Board cards [Ah 5d 9s Tc 8c]
[Sep 29 21:46:01] : rounders123 bet 800
[Sep 29 21:46:04] : cazarez007 called 800 and raised 7,650 and is All-in

cazarez007 playing pretty well so far. mostly winning pots without showing, rarely overbetting like this and occasionally checking down to win a pot. i ask the above questions because its a situation i often come across in similar circumstances with varying results.

Do you know your players? Did you get hand histories from sites like hhsmithy.com or hhdealer.com?

Just wondering. Thanks. Good luck!!

Opinions on a hand?(includes hand history)

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