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Dublin Directories

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    I have seen that type of notice before and often wondered how many replies might have been received!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    A general enquiry if I may...

    Does anyone know if Thom's have a recent street directory for Waterford similar to what's currently available for Dublin?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Shane, you seem to have been inundated with requests for Thom’s searches.

    Any chance of checking one for me? I have been told that Lord Pembroke gave a ‘grant of land’ to my GG Granddad & another man to build houses in Barrow Street (opposite Google now) in the 1840’s. 10 houses I think. My GG Grandad got 4 to keep as did the other man & the Lord kept two. My GG Grandad was Patrick Dodd, possibly he got 2, 5, 9 & 10. Would Thom’s narrow down the timescale as to when these houses were built? And who was the other man? Any help would be great.

    As an aside, Patrick Dodd, in his 70’s married my GG Granny Elizabeth Meroe (from my India Connection thread), she was listed as ‘Minor’ on the marriage cert.

    Thanks, J


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Hermy wrote: »
    A general enquiry if I may...

    Does anyone know if Thom's have a recent street directory for Waterford similar to what's currently available for Dublin?

    most recent one I have is 1943/44 - a listing by trades for towns and cities.

    inc. Waterford city, Dungarvan, Tramore, Lismore etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    nikonuser wrote: »
    ....I have been told that Lord Pembroke gave a ‘grant of land’ to my GG Granddad & another man to build houses in Barrow Street (opposite Google now) in the 1840’s. 10 houses I think. My GG Grandad got 4 to keep as did the other man & the Lord kept two. My GG Grandad was Patrick Dodd, possibly he got 2, 5, 9 & 10. Would Thom’s narrow down the timescale as to when these houses were built? And who was the other man? .....

    Thom's started publishing in 1844 - first one I have is 1848. Will check that and later editions for possible details..

    The Street listing from Pettigrew and Oulton's Directory (pub. from 1834 up to the late ~1840s) of 1840 and 1834 includes Barrow Street, but only shows a lime kiln and ship-builder.

    Directory listings would generally show occupant or business owner, rather than landlord or owner.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Shane, I have been told that it was mid-1840's when the houses that are presently there were built. I know he rented out 3 of the 4 houses. He was a 'fitter' in some of the documentation I have and his son worked at ship building in the late 1800's early 1900's so maybe you have uncovered another avenue for me. Any more clues would be great. Cheers, J


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The extra houses start to appear between 1842 and 1845 (P & O), and numbers appear in the 1847 edition (P & O), and these appear to be tidied up by 1848 (Thom) :

    1842

    2 & 3 Messer. Hasting & Carter Dock floor mill and stores
    Austin Ward, lime kiln
    Robert Morton, river pilot

    1845

    2 & 3 Messer. Hasting & Carter Dock floor mill and stores
    Austin Ward, lime kiln
    Mr. Thomas Fisher
    Robert Morton, river pilot
    Mr. Martin Morris
    John Mann, engineer
    Peter Byrne, carpenter

    1847

    1 Robert Morton, river pilot
    2 Mr. George Saunders
    Austin Ward, lime works
    Hasting & Carter Dock floor mill and stores
    1 Peter Byrne, carpenter
    2 vacant
    3 Mr. Martin Morris
    4 Mr. Henry Bates
    5 Mr. Patrick Dodd
    6 Mr. John Byrne

    1848

    1 Peter Byrne, carpenter
    2 Mr. John Dunne
    3 Mr. Martin Morris
    4 Mr. Henry Bates, printer
    5 Mr. Patrick Dodd
    6 Mrs. Byrne
    7 & 8 Hasting & Carter, oatmeal & flor millers, & F. Docks
    9 Austin Ward, lime kiln
    ... here Kingstown Railway intersects....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Griffith's Valuation for this area is dated 1854 (pub. 16 Feb 1854) and it shows the following as immediate lessors of property on Barrow St. at that time - Henry Courtney, Mrs. Morton, Austin Ward, Grand Canal Company and Hastings & Carter. (St. Mark c.p. and Barrow Street comes under Co. Dublin on AskAboutIreland)


    edit : Patrick Dodd also appears at No. 5 in the 1850 and 1852 listings. The 1858 edition lists 1 to 6 as simply 'cottages' with no names, along with three businesses - two mills & a limeworks


  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Shane, thanks for that.
    It would appear that the story of my GG Granddad & another man building Barrow St may not add up so. I do know that he did eventually own 4 houses there: 2, 5, 9 & 10 and while he lived in no 5 he rented out the others to lodgers. That is the reason he met my GG Granny (Eliz Meroe), she worked for him looking after the lodgers (they marries in 1882). The development of Barrow St as listed in your quoted directories is at odds with family lore. Not unusual.

    Any suggestions on how to further the story?

    Again thanks, J


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Valuation Office is the place to follow this up with Cancelled Land Books. These are the Re-Valuations that continued on after Griffith's up to the 20thC - 1970s for some areas. They include they same sort of details as the primary Valuation and record changes to occupier and immediate lessor or owner with overstriking and different coloured ink, generally soon after they occur.. They also note significant changes to buildings. There are separate books for each Electoral district and a new volume about every 10 or 15 years. Within the books they are usually divided by civil parish and then townland or street.

    You can see examples of revaluation Books on the PRONI site


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  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Shane, again many thanks. I will follow up as you suggest, cheers, J


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    nikonuser wrote: »
    Shane, you seem to have been inundated with requests for Thom’s searches.

    Any chance of checking one for me?

    Practice every day has made
    Shanew perfect in his trade
    He gives wisdom day and night
    Turning darkness into light!

    (Apologies to Sidelius and Mr. Flower!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Rather than inundating Shane W with requests for data from Thom's and other directories, it should be remembered that a virtually full set of Thom's directories are on the open shelves of Dublin City Library and Archive, 138-144 Pearse Street, Dublin 2.
    Those who have not used this superb resource, just need the usual two forms of ID to register and access the collection.

    To my mind, Thom's directories are the most underused source for local and family history for Dublin and also other areas. Depending on the period, Dublin city was only reached on page 1349 or 1375. Before that are lists relating to every local authority, poor law union and professionals, clergy etc in Ireland, lists of aristocrats, army and navy officers, privy councillors etc throughout the UK. I even found an ancestor working in a colonial position, complete with his salary in rupees, you could see his pay increase each year.

    For many, this will seem like useless information, but you never know when some of it may become relevant. It was the internet of it's day.

    Thom's directory started about 1844, there was a short overlap with Pettigrew & Oulton. Before this, there was Wilson's directory, published as part of the treble almanac. Some are pre 1800. Of course this was more basic, lists of different trades etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    hardly inundated - anyway the searches are always interesting..... find something new or learn about an unfamiliar part of Dublin each time

    feel free to keep the requests coming...

    As far as I know Pettigrew & Oulton 1834 was the first with a street listing, before that directories like Watson / Wilson / Treble include only alphabetic lists for merchants and traders. I've created a virtual street listing for Watson 1783 directory - e.g. Grafton St.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Hermy wrote: »
    A general enquiry if I may...

    Does anyone know if Thom's have a recent street directory for Waterford similar to what's currently available for Dublin?
    shanew wrote: »
    most recent one I have is 1943/44 - a listing by trades for towns and cities.

    inc. Waterford city, Dungarvan, Tramore, Lismore etc

    I just remembered I have a 1961 Thom's Part 3, which is the one that covers Towns and cities outside Dublin - including a trades listing for Waterford city etc


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    shanew wrote: »
    I just remembered I have a 1961 Thom's Part 3, which is the one that covers Towns and cities outside Dublin - including a trades listing for Waterford city etc

    I was actually looking for something much more recent and directory enquiries were able to help in the long run. Thanks anyway.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Hermy wrote: »
    I was actually looking for something much more recent and directory enquiries were able to help in the long run. Thanks anyway.

    my use of the term 'recent' is probably a bit skewed ...

    btw in case anyone hasn't seen a Thom's up close, there are two relatively complete versions, including the additional sections mentioned by Tabbey on Google books - see 1850 and 1852. These are OCR'd so in addition to browsing the images some searching is allowed..

    There are also several Treble Almanacs and at least one Pettigrew & Oulton on Google Books.


  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Shane,
    Many thanks for the links. they are huge books, a wealth of reading & well worth a search for names & places we recognise.
    Cheers, J


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Shane

    I'm wondering how long Richard Reeves Smyth and his wife Alice (nee Pelly) remained in Lucan after the census if you get a chance to check.

    Thanks

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Hermy wrote: »
    ..I'm wondering how long Richard Reeves Smyth and his wife Alice (nee Pelly) remained in Lucan after the census if you get a chance to check...

    He appears in listings with an address of Griffin Lodge, Lucan up to 1918, but is not listed in any from 1919 onward


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  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Shane, I looked at the 2 links for Thom's Directories on Google Books you posted. I quickly found what you previously said re my request on Barrow St and my G G Granddad, Patrick Dodd. He is listed in no.5 in both 1850 & 1852. I am still under the impression that he owned 2, 5, 9 & 10 if he didn't appear to be involved in the original building of them. As he is listed for no.5 does that mean that he owned it? Could he have owned 2, 9 & 10 as well, though here are other names for these houses in Thom's for these years?
    J


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    nikonuser wrote: »
    ...Patrick Dodd....listed in no.5 in both 1850 & 1852. I am still under the impression that he owned 2, 5, 9 & 10 if he didn't appear to be involved in the original building of them. As he is listed for no.5 does that mean that he owned it? Could he have owned 2, 9 & 10 as well, though here are other names for these houses in Thom's for these years?
    J

    Thom's lists the householder or business owner - so no way to tell from that if a particular person owned a particular property or not. Griffith's shows the immediate lessors in 1854, these would be the owners or intermediates at that time - no mention of your Patrick then. Maybe he acted as an agent for one the the owners or intermediates, and collected the rent on their behalf. The valuation books should show if he took over the properties at a later stage..


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    shanew wrote: »
    He appears in listings with an address of Griffin Lodge, Lucan up to 1918, but is not listed in any from 1919 onward

    Interesting house - just not finding deaths for Richard or Alice in the usual places.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭nikonuser


    Cheers for that Shane, J


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Hermy wrote: »
    ....just not finding deaths for Richard or Alice in the usual places.

    I had a look earlier also, and spotted nothing obvious - thought the distinctive name might stand out. He appears in the directory listings after 1914 under R - as in 'Reeves, R. Smyth' (format - surname, firstnames), although the census form suggest Reeves is his middle name, and Smith his surname.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    It does chop and change between various iterations.
    His mother was Reeves and father was Smyth.
    He was baptised Richard Reeves Mary Assumpta Smyth.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Alice died 21 May 1962
    Richard died 10 May 1966


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    You're spoiling me KF!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    You're welcome! Richard stars in a few articles: fined £20 for no insurance; involved in a dispute about inheritance tax; dispute about the Theatre Royal taking light from his premises.... interesting chap.

    Richard died in Portobello Nursing home according to a legal ad looking for his creditors.

    Here's the marriage announcement:


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    KildareFan wrote: »
    You're welcome! Richard stars in a few articles: fined £20 for no insurance; involved in a dispute about inheritance tax; dispute about the Theatre Royal taking light from his premises.... interesting chap.

    Tis great when people fall foul of the law - such wonderful paper trails they leave behind!:)

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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