Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

19899101103104403

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    MJohnston wrote: »
    There's a couple of those they should lose as they're in vital areas, but very much doubt that it's anything other than baseless rumours.

    they shouldn't lose them. if they are in vital areas, then it's because the areas are vital for the depots hence they were built there and not elsewhere.
    Is Coyningham road depot really the best use of inner city land??

    yes . a depot still exists there for a reason. shunting depots elsewhere likely means more dead running and extra cost.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Here's my conclusion... by the time the dust settles this plan will be either abandoned, or reworked so much that it'll be completely ineffective and/or actually make things worse!

    and who's to blame for that then?, the idiots who only care about themselves and moan to their local idiot representatives who go on further uninformed rants, thats who.

    The whole thing should just be implemented without any public consultation and after 6 months then seek feedback about it, you might actually get something relevant then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,576 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    and who's to blame for that then?, the idiots who only care about themselves and moan to their local idiot representatives who go on further uninformed rants, thats who.

    The whole thing should just be implemented without any public consultation and after 6 months then seek feedback about it, you might actually get something relevant then.

    Ah yes.. anyone who has an issue or concern with this is an "idiot" who's moaning, uninformed or ranting.

    And it's PRECISELY because of THAT attitude that this whole thing will fail!

    Now.. think about that, and then ask who's REALLY to blame?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    and who's to blame for that then?, the idiots who only care about themselves and moan to their local idiot representatives who go on further uninformed rants, thats who.

    The whole thing should just be implemented without any public consultation and after 6 months then seek feedback about it, you might actually get something relevant then.

    That's incorrect anyway, or at least partly. Blame would also lie with the creators of the plan. They should have stayed in the room after coming up with it and handed it over to another team for the roll out. One that knows what they're doing in relation to that aspect of it.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Please everyone remember not to feed the trolls and also try and be civil to each other, there are a wide range of views on this topic, please try and make your point without having a dig at each other.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    and who's to blame for that then?, the idiots who only care about themselves and moan to their local idiot representatives who go on further uninformed rants, thats who.

    The whole thing should just be implemented without any public consultation and after 6 months then seek feedback about it, you might actually get something relevant then.

    That’s not fair. There are people genuinely concerned about losing their bus service. In some cases there is no need for fear as their service is simply changing slightly and that really needs explaining. However, for some parts of the city people are losing their service, and connections, if any, will not be so straightforward. It is only fair these people be allowed to express their opinions. That’s what the consultation period is for. It is totally understandable that an elderly resident in Swords cares more about her local route than she does about a new spine in Stillorgan. That doesn’t make her an idiot.

    I think the carry on of the NBRU is disappointing and is not helping anybody. This is the biggest change to the bus network in generations, naturally some people will be worried, others enthusiastic, that’s how these things go. Personally, as a transport enthusiast I am quite excited about Bus Connects, but I have serious concerns about capacity, frequency and connectivity in some areas. But this is the consultation period to raise all issues and it is absolutely right to have these discussions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Patww79 wrote: »
    That's incorrect anyway, or at least partly. Blame would also lie with the creators of the plan. They should have stayed in the room after coming up with it and handed it over to another team for the roll out. One that knows what they're doing in relation to that aspect of it.

    But that team would have the weakness of the fact that they wouldn't be the experts on the plan they would only be the experts of marketing the plan. Surely the group of people who make a plan would know the most about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,576 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But that team would have the weakness of the fact that they wouldn't be the experts on the plan they would only be the experts of marketing the plan. Surely the group of people who make a plan would know the most about it.

    Yes, but those aren't always the best people to sell it to others. They're too very different roles.

    It's the same reason that software devs come up with the goods, but the sales guys put it out there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Yes, but those aren't always the best people to sell it to others. They're too very different roles.

    It's the same reason that software devs come up with the goods, but the sales guys put it out there.

    True but that's sort of comparing apples and oranges. If people are concerned about various different issues about the plan then they would be best informed and reassured by the people who made the plan and not some expensive pr person who doesn't fully understand the project.

    I'm also not convinced that such personnel would be able to prevent bad press in the media. Remember it suits the media give bad press more than it does to give good press (unless paid to do so).


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,576 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    True but that's sort of comparing apples and oranges. If people are concerned about various different issues about the plan then they would be best informed and reassured by the people who made the plan and not some expensive pr person who doesn't fully understand the project.

    I'm also not convinced that such personnel would be able to prevent bad press in the media. Remember it suits the media give bad press more than it does to give good press (unless paid to do so).

    But that's why you keep the devs around to provide pre-sales support.. answer the tech questions, explain the code - but under the oversight of those who know how to put it over the line and translate for the buyers.

    This shouldn't be one or the other.. it should be a coordinated effort - but right now it's a case of the customers complaining or angry (justifiably or otherwise) and the devs getting defensive and annoyed because their efforts are being attacked and in turn making the mess even worse.

    This plan is missing the sales element... badly! And it's that which will bring it down if not addressed soon.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    People keep saying that the PR is missing from this, but that aspect has just begun with the public information sessions as we saw in Charlestown today. This will have been the plan all along.

    Perhaps it was also part of the plan to let the initial consultation simmer for a couple of weeks, gather some feedback and then use that to better prepare people at the info sessions.

    Even if not, the idea that this plan is just being allowed to sink at the feet of the NBRU is not accurate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Pseudorandom


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Pat is right.. the roll out has been a complete disaster. No-one outside those who designed it, or enthusiasts cares about the "bigger picture" or that this is "best practise" elsewhere. They care about how it will affect THEM.

    I agree there's a PR problem here. People are perfectly allowed to be selfish & it's totally ok to protest if the service in your area is reduced. Problem is really you're only hearing from those people, it hasn't really been sold yet to the people whose service will improve.

    For me it looks like an improvement, it adds a direct link to Heuston from the kimmage area without noticeably getting rid of anything (except maybe the frequency of buses down terenure road west)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I agree there's a PR problem here. People are perfectly allowed to be selfish & it's totally ok to protest if the service in your area is reduced. Problem is really you're only hearing from those people, it hasn't really been sold yet to the people whose service will improve.

    Jarrett has been on record a number of times saying if you do the plan get in touch with the NTA through the public consultation and survey as if you stay silent the plan may not go ahead. In recent weeks I have noticed ads about the plan going up at bus shelters across Dublin with slogans such as "25% more services".

    Remember as Martin Luther King said "In the end we will not remember the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends" and that could be the key to the success or failure of this project.


  • Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Pseudorandom


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Jarrett has been on record a number of times saying if you do the plan get in touch with the NTA through the public consultation and survey as if you stay silent the plan may not go ahead. In recent weeks I have noticed ads about the plan going up at bus shelters across Dublin with slogans such as "25% more services".

    Remember as Martin Luther King said "In the end we will not remember the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends" and that could be the key to the success or failure of this project.

    I've already done the survey because I totally agree that people who like it need to say they like it. But you're always going to be more motivated to fill in a survey if it affects you negatively tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I've already done the survey because I totally agree that people who like it need to say they like it. But you're always going to be more motivated to fill in a survey if it affects you negatively tbh.

    Not neessecarily look at the original bus connects survey most people reacted positively to questions like would you mind changing buses etc.

    A question I would have is even if the survey and public consultation receives a negative response could the project still be overthrown due to lobbying and political campaigning?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    There's a lot of presumption here that this plan has to win over the general public, but does it? I mean, the network re-design has purposefully been kept separate from any infrastructure investment required, so I'm not entirely sure that it needs to win public support, and potentially not even political support.

    I'm sure they will take useful feedback on board though, whether they have to or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    KD345 wrote: »
    That doesn’t make her an idiot.
    .

    I never said it did, but harping on about it without bothering to read the actual (official) documentation released is what would.
    People who do not bother to read the report and understand it should not be given the time of day, nothing more than rumour or scaremongering comes out in that case. Claiming ignorance is not an excuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    If the report was easy to read for a non transport enthusiast then I'd agree, but it's a shambles the way it has been introduced. Multiple pdf's instead of an app or interactive website showing the proposed changes, in 2018 is unacceptable and asking for the problems that are happening now. If you fail to provide easy to decipher documentation then you have to forfeit that argument.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    On the subject of political posturing.
    https://twitter.com/bridsmithTD/status/1025111915427782656?s=19

    How is it money grabbing? Because more people will use public transport? Surely that's a good thing?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It's a monet grab apparently - the NTA are going to steal art


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Whatever about any other issues I have that I've mentioned, this money grabbing angle is an absolute joke. I'd love to hear how they put that one across.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Whatever about any other issues I have that I've mentioned, this money grabbing angle is an absolute joke. I'd love to hear how they put that one across.

    It's Brid Smith, what do you expect? No doubt she has or will be claiming that bus connects is all about privatisation and they're just packaging up routes to sell to the highest bidder in the future. The private sector is inherently bad in her eyes. I quite literally hate what these people promote and stand for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Uriel. wrote: »
    It's Brid Smith, what do you expect? No doubt she has or will be claiming that bus connects is all about privatisation and they're just packaging up routes to sell to the highest bidder in the future. The private sector is inherently bad in her eyes. I quite literally hate what these people promote and stand for.

    And the worst part, which is kind of in line about what I've been saying, loads of people will lap this up. "The government wants to take all your money" is the one thing guaranteed to get ears pricked up.
    I'm not saying the NTA should go to the bottom of the barrel also, but there is definitely a better way to combat rubbish like this that the way it's been handled so far.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,248 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    L1011 wrote: »
    It's a monet grab apparently - the NTA are going to steal art

    Also it’s only one hand they want off the buses the other is fine apparently


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I have no idea, but if you have a specific comparison journey you'd like, I'd certainly be happy to help!

    Thank you

    Currently I can get the 33d into town at 7.20 in the morning from Donabate Village. I am in the City Centre by 08.00.

    What would the likely journey time be under the new system?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    So I've read back and squabbling on Twitter and elsewhere continues unabated I see.

    Pat is right.. the roll out has been a complete disaster. No-one outside those who designed it, or enthusiasts cares about the "bigger picture" or that this is "best practise" elsewhere. They care about how it will affect THEM.

    As the quote goes... "if you're explaining, you're losing!" and that certainly seems to be what Jarret-the-Wunderkind and the NTA are spending a lot of time doing here.

    Here's my conclusion... by the time the dust settles this plan will be either abandoned, or reworked so much that it'll be completely ineffective and/or actually make things worse!

    Unlikely. That €2bn will be spent it aint going back into the coffers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    devnull wrote: »
    On the subject of political posturing.
    https://twitter.com/bridsmithTD/status/1025111915427782656?s=19

    How is it money grabbing? Because more people will use public transport? Surely that's a good thing?

    PBPAAA politicians, shock horror, their livelyhood depends on poor people being ill-informed. I'm amazed the shinners haven't declared Jihad yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    If the report was easy to read for a non transport enthusiast then I'd agree, but it's a shambles the way it has been introduced. Multiple pdf's instead of an app or interactive website showing the proposed changes, in 2018 is unacceptable and asking for the problems that are happening now. If you fail to provide easy to decipher documentation then you have to forfeit that argument.

    the twitter generation :rolleyes:
    design a bull**** app for me so i don't have to put the effort of a bit of reading in...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    http://www.powderhounds.com/site/DefaultSite/filesystem/images/Europe/Austria/Innsbruck/gettingthere/innsbruckpublictransportmap.jpg

    When I lived in Innsbruck, Austria they had a system of lettered spine routes that branched off into the suburbs, but instead of calling each bus the 'A1' or 'A2', they were just called A and the name of the destination was different for each branch. This avoided people who aren't good at reading maps thinking that the lettered spine and alpha-numeric branch meant a change of bus.
    The City also has 3 regular tram lines and 1 heritage tram line
    The City is also the centre of a 3 line electrified commuter rail network, with each line operating trains every 15 mins, meaning a 5 minute frequency service on the shared sections.
    There spines were also operated as 24 hour routes, operating ever half hour between midnight and 5, 7 days a week.
    Changes of bus-tram-train are of course free, and have been since the days of the Hapsburg Empire.

    For context Innsbruck is about the same size in geography and population as Limerick. It's also less densely populated than Limerick with many 'suburbs' being a smattering of detatched houses that are often hidden in clouds on an overcast day. Also it probably has much less of a nightlife than Limerick and can be quite dead at night time during the week.

    All this is possible in Dublin, a city 10 times the size of Innsbruck but the Anglosphere has an aversion to spending money on public transport because private consumption is more important.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Jarrett has been on record a number of times saying if you do the plan get in touch with the NTA through the public consultation and survey as if you stay silent the plan may not go ahead.
    Anyone have the link to the survey? Seems a good task for a Friday afternoon


Advertisement