Undertaking

dil999 · 27-09-2017 7:08pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I can't believe this argument is still going ...

- Overtaking is passing another car (REGARDLESS of what lane you're in)

- The RTA states that you may ONLY overtake on the left in certain limited circumstances (which have been quoted above). Unless that other traffic is slow-moving (ie: stop-start in heavy congestion) you MAY NOT overtake on the left. You must change lanes and overtake the car on the right (assuming a third lane is available)

- Continuing on in the left lane is against the terms of the RTA and you can technically be prosecuted for it.

Certain posters may not agree with this law, but that's the way it is. The fact that there are drivers out there who seem unable to understand the above is frightening, but not surprising given the amounts of accidents caused by incorrect lane-changes daily.

You are not correct. The Legislation and the RTA is not clear. The definition of overtaking in the context of the legislation is not clear. The definition of 'slow' in the legislation is not clear. I have made a very detailed argument as to why this is the case.

Somebody answer me this question. What exact speed is slow as defined in this SI?

I think enough has has been said on this. But remember, the law is never black and white. And if anyone ever gets charged or prosecuted for driving within the speed limit on the left lane of a motorway, but faster than traffic in the right. Please start a thread. I will be waiting.

Henry Ford III · 27-09-2017 7:33pm

In this instance the vast majority would agree it's actually very clear.

For clarity though the offence isn't driving faster than a vehicle in the outside lane, it's passing/overtaking/undertaking a vehicle on your rhs.

FishOnABike · 27-09-2017 7:54pm

dil999 wrote: »

You are not correct. The Legislation and the RTA is not clear. The definition of overtaking in the context of the legislation is not clear.

It appears to be clear to almost everyone but yourself.

dil999 wrote: »

The definition of 'slow' in the legislation is not clear. I have made a very detailed argument as to why this is the case.

You may have made detailed arguments for your view but each has been soundly refuted by multiple posters. You have yet to respond to the counter arguments in posts #80, #88 and #89 which have repeatedly shown your arguments to be without foundation.

dil999 wrote: »

Somebody answer me this question. What exact speed is slow as defined in this SI?

The legislation doesn't specify an exact speed for 'slow', that's for the prosecuting garda and judge to decide. I think it would be decided on the reasonable person standard. Good luck trying to convince a judge that you travelling at 120kmh in lane one, overtaking the lane hogger in lane two who is travelling at 100kmh on a HQDC are 'slow moving traffic'.

dil999 wrote: »

I think enough has has been said on this. But remember, the law is never black and white. And if anyone ever gets charged or prosecuted for driving within the speed limit on the left lane of a motorway, but faster than traffic in the right. Please start a thread. I will be waiting.

Some aspects of the law are black and white e.g. overtake on the right except for the three exceptions provided for in law and by implication that overtaking does not, by necessity, have to involve any lane changing.

Other aspects are subject to the reasonable person test - e.g. what speed is slow and how far the next left turn needs to be if you overtake on the left having indicated your intention to turn left.

Isambard · 28-09-2017 8:52am

the overtaking/undertaking thing stems from people assuming that the opposite to "over" is "under". It is in some contexts, but not in this one. In this context the opposite to "Overtaking on the right" is "overtaking on the left".

Undertaking in another sense is sometimes the result of overtaking on the left and that's why, in general, it is not allowed.

LFCFan · 11-10-2017 8:55am

Pretty much every morning on the M1 the overtaking lane is completely clogged with cars doing less than 120Kph while the driving lane is completely empty. I enter the M1 and the driving lane is empty. I get up to 120Kph and reach the last car sitting in the overtaking lane. What do I do? Sit in the driving lane just behind the last car in the overtaking lane or pull in behind the last car in the overtaking lane and grow that line even more? The law may say you can't overtake on the left but in some cases the law is an ass and common sense should prevail.

Dravokivich · 11-10-2017 11:50am

LFCFan wrote: »

Pretty much every morning on the M1 the overtaking lane is completely clogged with cars doing less than 120Kph while the driving lane is completely empty. I enter the M1 and the driving lane is empty. I get up to 120Kph and reach the last car sitting in the overtaking lane. What do I do? Sit in the driving lane just behind the last car in the overtaking lane or pull in behind the last car in the overtaking lane and grow that line even more? The law may say you can't overtake on the left but in some cases the law is an ass and common sense should prevail.

You sit behind them in the driving lane and wait. Rushing up the driving lane may prevent someone the opportunity to switch back in, who didn't have the visibility to check it was clear to beforehand.

LFCFan · 11-10-2017 12:18pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

LFCFan wrote: »

Pretty much every morning on the M1 the overtaking lane is completely clogged with cars doing less than 120Kph while the driving lane is completely empty. I enter the M1 and the driving lane is empty. I get up to 120Kph and reach the last car sitting in the overtaking lane. What do I do? Sit in the driving lane just behind the last car in the overtaking lane or pull in behind the last car in the overtaking lane and grow that line even more? The law may say you can't overtake on the left but in some cases the law is an ass and common sense should prevail.

You sit behind them in the driving lane and wait. Rushing up the driving lane may prevent someone the opportunity to switch back in, who didn't have the visibility to check it was clear to beforehand.

Visibility to check? What's the difference between checking your left hand mirror compared to checking your right hand mirror? Are you saying drivers are fine moving to the left without indicating or checking it's clear? Motorway driving in this country is pathetic. You end up with a situation where you have a completely empty driving lane but a clogged overtaking lane and have to sit behind it all with nothing in front of you. I try to drive in the correct lane as much as possible but it's beyond frustrating. Just some of the stuff that you see on a daily basis:

You have drivers entering the motorway with a long merge lane still ahead of them but insist on pulling out in front of you without warning.
You have drivers entering the motorway with nothing in front of them in the driving lane but proceed straight to the middle lane and stay there for the duration
Drivers who insist on staying in the overtaking lane for the duration despite faster moving traffic behind them and nothing in the driving lane to overtake.
Drivers who actually flash you when you are moving in and out of lanes to overtake as normal while they remain in the wrong lane
Drivers who don't indicate when changing lanes
Drivers who wait till the last opportunity to move from the outside lane to get across to their exit and slow down to make the manoeuvre, creating a phantom jam.
Drivers who will toddle along in the overtaking lane, overtaking nothing with a huge gap in front of them and if they even get a sniff that someone is going to move in to the space in front of them they speed up to close the gap.
Drivers who have a line of traffic behind them, obviously trying to get past and despite flashing etc they refuse and then when the drivers have to undertake to get past the driver starts flashing them.

AlekSmart · 11-10-2017 12:22pm

LFCFan wrote: »

Pretty much every morning on the M1 the overtaking lane is completely clogged with cars doing less than 120Kph while the driving lane is completely empty. I enter the M1 and the driving lane is empty. I get up to 120Kph and reach the last car sitting in the overtaking lane. What do I do? Sit in the driving lane just behind the last car in the overtaking lane or pull in behind the last car in the overtaking lane and grow that line even more? The law may say you can't overtake on the left but in some cases the law is an ass and common sense should prevail.

I'd suggest that "Common Sense" is prevailing all over the Country in respect of this stuff.

You correctly identify the basic issue as being the speed at which the relative lanes are moving.

A driver is expected to drive up to the posted speed-limit on any given road,should the conditions safely allow for it.
On an RSA Driving Test for example,failure to make progress can,and does,contribute to Test faliures.

As dil999 asks earlier in thread,neither the SI nor the greater RTA offers a definition on what the "Slower Speed" actually is.
In the absence of that definition,a reasonable person might suggest that a driver in the unobstructed inner driving lane is fully entitled,once the conditions allow,to proceed at the posted Speed Limit.
Exercising that entitlement,once safely performed,in no way interferes with the progress of the middle lane driver who chooses to travel at a lower speed than the posted limit.
The conflict can & does occur,when drivers who fail to read the road ahead ( usually middle lane adherents themselves) suddenly come up to the rear bumper of Mid Lane Man,and make a sudden dart in to the left to perform the undertake...This is the manouvere which mostly causes the grief we see all too often.
If,however Mid-Lane Man is travelling at the posted speed limit,then you sit tight,whether it's off side or near side as an overtake will then definitely break the law.

Being in charge of a 1 tonne+ chunk of mechanical and electrical mass,travelling at speeds of up to 120 KpH imposes (or should impose) a certain sense of realization that one needs to pay a tad more attention to your constantly changing surroundings.

A quick spin along any of our HQDC or M way network,will raise enough doubts as to the abilities of many drivers to cope with the differing requirements of such driving.

In the meantime,the obvious lack of any effective,pro-active Traffic Policing,will continue to facilitate ignorance,and further embolden aggressive drivers to do what they do best.

Dravokivich · 11-10-2017 12:58pm

LFCFan wrote: »

Visibility to check? What's the difference between checking your left hand mirror compared to checking your right hand mirror?

I'm not familiar with the section of road you are talking about, but there are a few roads where the view behind is obscure because you are either ascending or descending or going around a bend. So would not be able to see or gauge what's in the other lane.

That's all I was on about.

Dravokivich · 11-10-2017 1:19pm

LFCFan wrote: »

You have drivers entering the motorway with a long merge lane still ahead of them but insist on pulling out in front of you without warning.

You have drivers entering the motorway with nothing in front of them in the driving lane but proceed straight to the middle lane and stay there for the duration

Drivers who insist on staying in the overtaking lane for the duration despite faster moving traffic behind them and nothing in the driving lane to overtake.

Drivers who actually flash you when you are moving in and out of lanes to overtake as normal while they remain in the wrong lane

Drivers who don't indicate when changing lanes

Drivers who wait till the last opportunity to move from the outside lane to get across to their exit and slow down to make the manoeuvre, creating a phantom jam.

Drivers who will toddle along in the overtaking lane, overtaking nothing with a huge gap in front of them and if they even get a sniff that someone is going to move in to the space in front of them they speed up to close the gap.

Drivers who have a line of traffic behind them, obviously trying to get past and despite flashing etc they refuse and then when the drivers have to undertake to get past the driver starts flashing them.

1 - These are people who aren't doing proper observation as opposed to their view being obscured.
2 - So lane hoggers then as per the thread. I'm not sure why you are pointing that in a response to my comment. But still you either overtake via a 3rd Lane if available and safe to do so, or hold back in the driving lane.
3 - No different to point 2 other than when they got there.
4 - So they shouldn't be flashing? I'd agree with that. But otherwise you are still repeating point 2.
5 - eh... yeah that's a problem... but I keep enough clearance to not have to react to it.
6 - Yeah that's also wrong. And is also a symptom of poor road design (reference going from M50 south bound to Monastery Road, via Red Cow, you've to cross 4 lanes within 200 metres. I always suggest using Ballymount exit as a turnback. also, visibility in the rear view mirrors here are regularly obscured. I'm surpirsed there aren't more accidents on that side of it)
7 - That's poor awareness of what they are doing. Chances are they are unaware of their speed as well thinking they were going faster than they were. But why is that in response to my comment about holding back beside a queue of people in the over taking lane? This couldn't be why the tail of it is there.
8 - So back to a variant of point 4 above. No one should be flashing each other. And one's frustration behind someone hogging the over taking lane while the driving lane is clear is not justification for undertaking them. Nor is an action born of frustration "Common Sense."

Henry Ford III · 11-10-2017 3:44pm

It's "slow" not "slower". That has been interpreted elsewhere (not admittedly in legislation) as "congested or stop/start" conditions.

tedpan · 11-10-2017 11:10pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LroUAwOKgsE

A lot of lane hogging over the past month. None of them would have moved for anyone.

Undertaking

Comments