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What's The Difference Between Atheism And Agnosticism ..

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    #32
    A_Lost_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭A_Lost_Man


    smacl wrote: »
    Just my opinion, but those who are anti-theist and anti-fundamentalist tend to take that position because they've suffered some form of abuse at the hands of organised religion. This can be as simple as having an unwanted belief system and anachronistic notion of morality foisted upon them and their family, or something altogether more serious.

    You actually get a lot of codified hatred in organised religion. Notions such as homosexuality, heresy, blasphemy and apostasy being punishable crimes are good examples of this. Many religious traditions are also deeply misogynistic which rightly draw a strong negative reaction in modern civilised society. Where religion gets ridiculed today where it wouldn't have been in the past is probably a reaction to this.

    I think fundamentalists tend to be more a source of ridicule than hatred by and large, unless of course they're trying to push their own oft times hateful ideology on others.
    Hatred will produce more hatred. In this age of technology some people for time pass do such things. For their amusement. They were never be a victim of organised religion. Organised religions are vanishing by the passage of time with their outdated punishment and will die soon but what is keeping them alive is same hatred.


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    #33
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    Hatred will produce more hatred. In this age of technology some people for time pass do such things. For their amusement. They were never be a victim of organised religion. Organised religions are vanishing by the passage of time with their outdated punishment and will die soon but what is keeping them alive is same hatred.

    What it the point that you're attempting to make there? Yes organised religion is in decline and yes it attracts a degree of contempt as it continues to exert undue and disproportionate influence on our society. I'm not sure from your post above whether English is your first language, but very many people of my generation in this country have experienced some level of abuse at the hands of the clergy first hand. As the number of vocations for priests, nuns and brothers has collapsed and they no longer represent a major part of the teach staff in most schools, this has diminished greatly but remains fresh in our memories.

    Just my opinion, but I very much doubt religion will ever die out in this country. Rather it will become a minority pursuit and its influence will fall proportionately. Contempt for religion will similarly disappear with a generation that have never had it foisted on them.


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    #34
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    Some atheists are anti-fundamentalists and anti-theists. They mind expressions of religion and get angry in the name of region and with this hate they become hater and feel enjoyment in hurting other people faiths and making fun of them. What is difference between such atheist and uneducated people.

    This used to happen here frequently, and the moderators allowed it and joined in on the foray.

    Winding people up then banning them or carding them.
    I think they knew what they were doing but when they all come at you from every direction you might as well give up.

    I'm not religious myself but I call a spade a spade.


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    #35
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    Some atheists are anti-fundamentalists and anti-theists. They mind expressions of religion and get angry in the name of region and with this hate they become hater and feel enjoyment in hurting other people faiths and making fun of them. What is difference between such atheist and uneducated people.

    This is a bit rich for somebody who is trying to claim the body's dumped by the catholic church in Tuam isn't a thing and the bodies are from the famine. Zero evidence supports your belief in this.

    You want to rebury the bodies and their stories all so you can protect your faith, utterly pathetic


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    #36
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nthclare wrote: »
    This used to happen here frequently, and the moderators allowed it and joined in on the foray.

    Winding people up then banning them or carding them.
    I think they knew what they were doing but when they all come at you from every direction you might as well give up.

    I'm not religious myself but I call a spade a spade.

    Mod note: Comments relating to the moderation of this forum are off topic for this thread. Such issues are welcome on the feedback forum here, ideally with links to examples. Thanks for your attention


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    #37
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    smacl wrote: »
    Mod note: Comments relating to the moderation of this forum are off topic for this thread. Such issues are welcome on the feedback forum here, ideally with links to examples. Thanks for your attention

    Ah I was only joking about that lol
    Having a bit of banter like :)


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    #38
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,089 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Doesn't that mean then that anyone who is not an atheist is an agnostic?

    Nobody, even the pope or the head man in the muslim religion, knows for a fact that there is a god. They may believe there is or have a faith that there is but there is no way that they can know that there is surely.

    :mad: I thought my above post would get loads of thanks and comments as it's so wise and insightful! Clearly I'm casting pearls to swine!


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    #39
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    What's The Difference Between Atheism And Agnosticism ..

    I don't know, and I don't care...

    (oh wait no, thats not the way that joke goes)


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    #40
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    :mad: I thought my above post would get loads of thanks and comments as it's so wise and insightful! Clearly I'm casting pearls to swine!

    lol locals only...

    They only pat each other on the back and share validation :)


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    #41
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,299 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm confused. i thought it was just a statement of the obvious?


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    #42
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    someone take out that chart again, so we can have a go at debunking it, again...

    Agnostics, from my understanding, believe that it can't be known whether there is a god or not.
    Theists believe there is a god / gods. Atheists believe there isn't / don't believe there is a god


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    #43
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nthclare wrote: »
    lol locals only...

    They only pat each other on the back and share validation :)

    Mod warning: You've already been asked to keep on topic and leave any posts that are critical of the forum to the feedback thread. Please do not post on this thread again until such time as you can manage that.


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    #44
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    someone take out that chart again, so we can have a go at debunking it, again...

    Agnostics, from my understanding, believe that it can't be known whether there is a god or not.
    Theists believe there is a god / gods. Atheists believe there isn't / don't believe there is a god

    But I suppose the best way to debate about whether there's a god or not is get to basics.

    The Atheists seem to go for the jugular and suggest that people believe in the Abrahamic God, sky fairy if you wish.

    They have an image of people believing in this bearded guy who's able to hear,see and feel your thoughts..
    a bit like santas robin.

    I'm not Abrahamic myself, I'm pagan and it's a whole different ball game being a pagan.

    There's no spaciific belief system, we're more like agnostics than atheistical in our ways.


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    #45
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    nthclare wrote: »
    But I suppose the best way to debate about whether there's a god or not is get to basics.

    The Atheists seem to go for the jugular and suggest that people believe in the Abrahamic God, sky fairy if you wish.

    They have an image of people believing in this bearded guy who's able to hear,see and feel your thoughts..
    a bit like santas robin.

    I'm not Abrahamic myself, I'm pagan and it's a whole different ball game being a pagan.

    There's no spaciific belief system, we're more like agnostics than atheistical in our ways.

    I don't believe all atheist assume everyone follows a Abrahamic god. There are after all thousands of gods, all as "real" as each other.

    Personally I play the odds, if somebody in Ireland says they are religious then odds are they are christian (this is after all statistically likely).

    But one persons bearded cloud god is another person's fairytale and not all christians view god the same.
    Outside of Ireland its anyone's game but again statistically odds are they are likely christian or islamic in belief purely based on a numbers game, there are of course other beliefs but they make up the smaller numbers.

    Generally through conversation people will drop enough things that you can figure out what faith they follow....if the conversation in anyway involves religion/faith.

    But I've met people who are Wiccan, protestant etc. I have no problem with their beliefs, for example if somebody finds that believing stones are gods I don't care, if it gets them through life without being a dick then thats a plus. My issue comes when they attempt to use their belief to restrict what I can or cannot do purely based on their faith.


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    #46
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    nthclare wrote: »
    But I suppose the best way to debate about whether there's a god or not is get to basics.

    The Atheists seem to go for the jugular and suggest that people believe in the Abrahamic God, sky fairy if you wish.

    They have an image of people believing in this bearded guy who's able to hear,see and feel your thoughts..
    a bit like santas robin.

    I'm not Abrahamic myself, I'm pagan and it's a whole different ball game being a pagan.

    There's no spaciific belief system, we're more like agnostics than atheistical in our ways.

    I think you'll find Atheists also don't believe Vishnu, Kali, The Dagda, The Morrigán, Thor, Odin, Apollo, Diane, Cernunnos, Zeus, Venus, Nanook, Torngasoak, Barnumbirr, Altjira, Wangmu Niangniang, Nüwa, etc etc exist.


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    #47
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,299 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the one thing that atheists *do* believe is that the children are our future; teach them well and let them lead the way. show them all the beauty they possess inside.


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    #48
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I think you'll find Atheists also don't believe Vishnu, Kali, The Dagda, The Morrigán, Thor, Odin, Apollo, Diane, Cernunnos, Zeus, Venus, Nanook, Torngasoak, Barnumbirr, Altjira, Wangmu Niangniang, Nüwa, etc etc exist.

    I'm impressed with your knowledge of the different god's, obviously you're interested in the subject.

    It's fascinating to say the least.
    There's a lot of them that's for sure.

    Maybe it's just different cultures and traditions, at the time they didn't understand the universe,and still people are coming up with theoretical physics and mathematics to explain the big bang etc
    In essence we're microscopic in comparison to the whole scheme of things, my theory is there wasn't a big bang and were flowing and meandering through a cosmic river of sorts.

    Life is beautiful if you can appreciate it and not get caught up in religious dogma and live a life of perpetual Abrahamic guilt and anxiety, forever in sin, born with sin and on your death bed seeking forgiveness.

    From where I'm standing it's so sad that millions of people lived their life in fear, waking up in fear, going to sleep in fear constantly taking inventory of their thoughts, feelings, desires and needs.

    As a bisexual man, I lived that fear and sadness until I decided to seek help from a therapist and deprogram myself from the whole Christian way of thinking.
    It was costly and time-consuming, but after around 18 sessions of an hour at a time talking with an old wise woman who's American and not affiliated with any religion etc
    Through task's and facing my fears around the guilt and anxiety of an ending of my existence here on earth to be tossed into a pit of fire for all eternity just for being a bisexual and having unclean thoughts was horrific.

    I find it sad that there's millions of people who probably feel the way I did and living a painful existence, and most will hold onto that guilt until the day they die.

    I sometimes like banter and now and again I through in a haymaker into a thread, and people get wound up and I don't stay on topic,my bad my apologies to fellow atheists.

    If one's an agnostic, atheist or religious and are able to accept others without being overly judgemental they're doing ok.


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    #49
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    nthclare wrote: »
    But I suppose the best way to debate about whether there's a god or not is get to basics.

    The Atheists seem to go for the jugular and suggest that people believe in the Abrahamic God, sky fairy if you wish.

    What do you mean by the "basics"?
    Many of the discussions on this forum do hover around the Abrahamic God, but that's because it's an Irish forum and so most posters (both atheist and theist) experience with gods and religion is centered around the Abrahamic God. There have still been plenty of threads and discussions about the general idea of a god or gods though.


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    #50
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    What do you mean by the "basics"?
    Many of the discussions on this forum do hover around the Abrahamic God, but that's because it's an Irish forum and so most posters (both atheist and theist) experience with gods and religion is centered around the Abrahamic God. There have still been plenty of threads and discussions about the general idea of a god or gods though.

    Actually your post make's sense, I often have to explain that I'm slightly dyslexic and put in the wrong word's or get mixed up.

    I mean if one's debating whether there's a God or not, first ask them what's their interpretation of a personal God ?

    Some people think philosophical, others think metaphysical, some are more into the sky god thing.


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    #51
    Kamu
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Kamu


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    That things could travel faster than light (look up quantum entanglement)

    Anyway...

    I suppose the question depends on what your definition of "god" is. If its the version the religious texts speak about then yes, I know that does not exist.

    But "god" could be defined as a being who created the universe we live in. That is a "god" I dont think we can rule out. When you read enough material about AI, simulated worlds etc. you realize that someday a human could theoretically create a universe teeming with AI minds. To those AI minds, the human who created them and their world would fill many of the requirements to be defined as a god. Remember that the human being in that scenario would have godlike abilities at least as far as the AI minds would be concerned. A simple change of source code and that universes gravitational constant could be changed for example. Pulling the plug on the simulation and they all die etc.

    Are we living in a simulated iniverse and therefore have a creator of some sort? I dont know, probably not. But I cant rule it out.

    Will someone ever create a simulated universe with coscious inhabitants? Many great thinkers of today beleive it is likley.

    Sorry, just as an aside, look at the article
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/41968-quantum-entanglement-faster-than-light.html

    Quantum entanglement cannot actually communicate faster then light.


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    #52
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,269 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the one thing that atheists *do* believe is that the children are our future; teach them well and let them lead the way. show them all the beauty they possess inside.

    Indeed, which gives them a sense of pride.


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    #53
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the one thing that atheists *do* believe is that the children are our future; teach them well and let them lead the way. show them all the beauty they possess inside.

    Not sure you can say what atheists *do* believe in tbh. Cynically you could say that Catholics are also very invested in children being the future, though I daresay their vision of the future might differ from yours or mine.


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    #54
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,299 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think you need to not walk in anyone's shadow.


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    #55
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    smacl wrote: »
    Not sure you can say what atheists *do* believe in tbh. Cynically you could say that Catholics are also very invested in children being the future, though I daresay their vision of the future might differ from yours or mine.

    Well considering the past, I wonder what way we'd be now without religion ?


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    #56
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nthclare wrote: »
    Well considering the past, I wonder what way we'd be now without religion ?

    Who can say? Playing "what if" with past events can be very entertaining but really amounts to little more than speculative fantasy. Given the majority of societies have developed religion in some form or another over the course if their history I'd guess if we didn't have our current majority religion we'd have a different one. Societies that allow open criticism of religion are quite a new thing, but we still succumb to fake news and are bombarded with bullshít of one kind or another from those in power who want to stay in power. Personally I'm of the opinion that critical thinking should be part of the core curriculum at this point from primary school on, in much the same way as mindfulness is starting to be taught.


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    #57
    A_Lost_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭A_Lost_Man


    What is way of morality among atheist and agnostic. I mean if an atheist's mind start miss firing neurons what is a way to convince him that you lost track. Like there are atheists who in the hate of religion go to much wild they forget what they are doing is actually wrong. They are infact hurting people but think they are doing good like hitler.


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    #58
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    What is way of morality among atheist and agnostic. I mean if an atheist's mind start miss firing neurons what is a way to convince him that you lost track. Like there are atheists who in the hate of religion go to much wild they forget what they are doing is actually wrong. They are infact hurting people but think they are doing good like hitler.

    As opposed to religious people who commit atrocities because other people don't agree with their interpretation of god?

    I give you - just within Europe -
    The Albigensian Crusade.
    The Witchcraft 'Trials'
    The Inquisition.
    St Bartholomew's Day Massacre.

    How do you convince them they have lost track?


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    #59
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,870 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    What is way of morality among atheist and agnostic. I mean if an atheist's mind start miss firing neurons what is a way to convince him that you lost track. Like there are atheists who in the hate of religion go to much wild they forget what they are doing is actually wrong. They are infact hurting people but think they are doing good like hitler.

    Hitler was a theist and believed his actions to be divinely inspired. Obviously that is a very dangerous idea.

    If I go off the deep end I'm just a lone nut, a convinced theist going off the deep end has doctrines and beliefs which others share to some extent and he/she may be able to convince fellow believers to join their cause and quote scripture to that effect.

    The Abrahamic religious texts all contain exhortations to kill those of different or no belief.

    How do you convince an unhinged theist that they've gone off track, when they're convinced that god himself is talking to him and telling him to kill catholics/protestants/jews/prostitutes/gays/muslims/atheists?

    Atheists don't share a morality the same way as they don't share anything except non-belief in any gods - but most would subscribe to a greater or lesser extent to a humanistic view which basically amounts to don't be a dick.

    There are plenty of theists who have shot up / blown up church congregations, I'm not aware of any atheists who have done so but please enlighten me if you can.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #60
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,870 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    Well considering the past, I wonder what way we'd be now without religion ?

    Well, in Ireland, we'd have fewer raped kids for a start - and no kids who grew up in miserable institutions simply because they were "illegitimate".

    Without the religious divide, the Ulster plantation would have ended up like the earlier ones - "more Irish than the Irish themselves"* - and we would have a peaceful all-island republic with a higher standard of living than either jurisdiction on this island does now.

    That's one of the things that p1sses me off the most about religion, tbh - when the divisions it causes become political divisions.



    * Before Banna corrects me, yes I know that phrase refers to the Normans :)

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #61
    Fourier
    Registered Users Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Kamu wrote: »
    Sorry, just as an aside, look at the article
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/41968-quantum-entanglement-faster-than-light.html

    Quantum entanglement cannot actually communicate faster then light.
    Yes, basically entangled things are correlated. Like two coins that always land the same way up. You can't use this to send information since the outcome of each coin flip is random. So if heads is 0 and tails is 1, you just get a random sequence 001000011...

    It can be used to create a shared password though, since both parties with a coin know the outcomes.

    More accurately entanglement is like flipping a pair of coins where if they're both flipped starting from heads or from different faces they'll land the same, but if both are flipped from tails they'll land differently. Such a pair of coins are correlated, but in a way too strong for determinism. The world is too interconnected for determinism.


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