Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

LGBT and Islam

  • 11-06-2019 11:15am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,145 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    I've been scolded out of the Pride month thread for derailing it (apologies) so I'll ask here.

    First off, this is a legitimate question, I'm not looking to bash/condemn anyone in the LGBTQ community, and I'm not looking to condemn Muslims or Islam.

    I'm just genuinely curious about why there has been an increase, often at LGBTQ marches etc, of support shown by that community, towards the Muslim community.

    lgbt_brum_web.jpg

    I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

    I can totally understand them condemning both, as both religions teach that homosexuality is wrong/sinful. I just don't get why one is supported and the other is not.

    Again, this is a genuine question that I'm curious about so please don't drag it down to a mud slinging match.


«13456717

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 53 ✭✭FaxingBerlin


    You said it.
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,825 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    It's because both communities have a recent history of suffering intolerance, bigotry and hyperbolic media persecution. Islam, obviously, more recently than the LGBT community.

    In any case, the idea that Muslims automatically agree with Sharia law and want to implement it in western society is absolute bull**** to anyone who spends even a little time informing themselves by actually spending time with Muslims and talking to them, rather than reading tabloids and listening to right-wing podcasts; as most people, while being devout (to either religion) aren't as homophobic as a lot of people would like us to think.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    OP makes a valid point.

    Christianity considers homosexuality as a sin, not much will happen as a result in Christian dominant countries(aside from maybe a little ignorance)

    Islam considers homosexuality as a sin and can get you put to death as a result in many islam dominant countries, jailed or deported(at best).

    Yet the Christians are the enemies...

    I'm of no faith in the interest of full disclosure


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 Lehiff


    It's because both communities have a recent history of suffering intolerance, bigotry and hyperbolic media persecution. Islam, obviously, more recently than the LGBT community.

    Why is the solidarity not reciprocated by the Islamic world though?


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,051 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    You can condemn a person's beliefs and still condemn bigotry/discrimination directed at that person because of their beliefs. Pretty basic stuff I would have thought.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 32,825 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Lehiff wrote: »
    Why is the solidarity not reciprocated by the Islamic world though?

    How sure are you that it isn't? Just because they don't have a parade doesn't mean they don't reciprocate.

    In any case, it's a question you'd have to ask them directly.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,320 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    As a long term critic of religion one of the things I have experience personally is that they have successfully conflated the Religion and the people with Islam in a way that was tried with Christianity but was never as successful.

    When I make a strong criticism of Christianity the worst knee jerk nonsense I tend to get back is "They have a right to their belief/opinion".

    Often if I do the same with Islam however I get described as a bigot or racist. Because people have in some places been sold this idea that an attack on that religion is some kind of attack on the people of a different skin colour who follow that religion.

    And many times in the media people like Sam Harris (I think he had to do it in his collision with Batman.... sorry Ben Afleck...... but he certainly has had to do it a few times) has had to specifically unpack that idea and point out that he is not at all being racist in denigrating the Islamic religion.

    Now I have no idea to be honest if this difference in narrative is a partial explanation for what the OP describes, but I would not be surprised.

    There are many problems with Islam and good reasons to think it a worse and more dangerous religion in our world than many others. And making that distinction between religions is NOT racism or an attack on a minority group.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    You can condemn a person's beliefs and still condemn bigotry/discrimination directed at that person because of their beliefs. Pretty basic stuff I would have thought.

    It's absolutely astonishing that people can't grasp this.

    You can abhor the religious beliefs of a group of people, but you can also detest the discrimination they face too.

    It's really not a hard subject to discuss.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Probably because one community which suffers discrimination and hatred can empathise with other demographics who experience the same.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,333 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

    I can totally understand them condemning both, as both religions teach that homosexuality is wrong/sinful. I just don't get why one is supported and the other is not.

    Again, this is a genuine question that I'm curious about so please don't drag it down to a mud slinging match.


    It’s a fair bit more nuanced than simply appearing to support one religion and not the other. The facts are that simply by virtue of the numbers of Muslims and Christians there are, a significant percentage of both Muslims and Christians are also either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. There are also plenty of adherents of both religions who disagree with the opinions of the people who claim to represent them, or they disagree that what those people are saying represents either Islam or Christianity from their perspective.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think the small group in that photo represent the opinions of the all the people they claim to represent either.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 19,862 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    DrPhilG wrote: »

    I'm just genuinely curious about why there has been an increase, often at LGBTQ marches etc, of support shown by that community, towards the Muslim community.

    I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

    Does the LGBT community take positions on religions?

    I personally think both islam and Christianity are ridiculous. But if someone wants to discriminate against Christians or Muslims or as by other group, then I'll oppose them. That doesn't mean I like islam or Christianity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭touts


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I've been scolded out of the Pride month thread for derailing it (apologies) so I'll ask here.

    First off, this is a legitimate question, I'm not looking to bash/condemn anyone in the LGBTQ community, and I'm not looking to condemn Muslims or Islam.

    I'm just genuinely curious about why there has been an increase, often at LGBTQ marches etc, of support shown by that community, towards the Muslim community.

    lgbt_brum_web.jpg

    I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

    I can totally understand them condemning both, as both religions teach that homosexuality is wrong/sinful. I just don't get why one is supported and the other is not.

    Again, this is a genuine question that I'm curious about so please don't drag it down to a mud slinging match.

    They don't condemn Christianity. They condemn the church and it's unchristian policies and practices. There is a difference between Christianity and the Church. There is also a difference between Islam and the policies of Islamic governments. Hating the policies of the overlords of a religion is not the same as hating the religion itself. Many, maybe even most, of the LGBT community would identify as Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc. That banner is clearly condemning a wide variety of forms of irrational hatred. Homophobia, Islamaphobia, Facism etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 Lehiff


    Do the lgbt peeps like the Catholic church or is it just Islam they are a fan of as far as religions go?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Does the LGBT community take positions on religions?

    I personally think both islam and Christianity are ridiculous. But if someone wants to discriminate against Christians or Muslims or as by other group, then I'll oppose them. That doesn't mean I like islam or Christianity.

    Contrary to certain people's insistence, largely within the LGBT community they do actually hate the beliefs of many Muslim people.

    The connection between the two more stems from the very common occurrence that when a bad thing happens = Muslim person. Muslim = terrorist. White guy = lone wolf/mental health.

    A lot (most people) in the LGBT community can absolutely relate to that form of discrimination.

    It's also extremely important to remember that a growing amount of young Muslims in the west are approaching their religion much like many young Christians in the west. Growing scepticism


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,145 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    In any case, the idea that Muslims automatically agree with Sharia law and want to implement it in western society is absolute bull**** to anyone who spends even a little time informing themselves

    That's why I specified in the first post that the extremist Sharia law "death to gays" brigade is a small minority of Muslims, especially in the west.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,145 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    You can condemn a person's beliefs and still condemn bigotry/discrimination directed at that person because of their beliefs. Pretty basic stuff I would have thought.

    But I've read recently (I'll try to find the link) that Christianity is now the most persecuted faith in the world. In terms of actual violence and death that is. Places like North Korea, India, Pakistan are deadly places for a Christian.

    But I haven't seen any support from LGBT groups for persecuted Christians.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Lehiff wrote: »
    Why is the solidarity not reciprocated by the Islamic world though?

    There have been protests outside a school in the U.K. by muslims, some who have no family or children using the school, because the school is introducing LGBT into certain lessons.
    The mosque in clonskeagh posted on its own website that it's followers should vote No in the same sex marriage referendum.
    Some muslims are starting to express their LGBT support, but they do risk a backlash from their religious community.
    Recently at RuPauls Werk the World at the Bord Gais Theatre it was nice to see a couple of young muslim girls, wearing their hijab, having a great time at the show cheering on the queens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    I wonder if the people in that photo had the choice to walk down the main street of one of two cities let's say Rome or Tehran looking like that which they'd chose.

    Exactly.

    For the record i have no interest in any religion or sky fairies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,145 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    But I've read recently (I'll try to find the link) that Christianity is now the most persecuted faith in the world.

    Cant find the link I saw previously, but this is similar:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305

    I've no idea if the BBC is considered a left/right/Conservative/Liberal biased source so I don't know if it can be taken as impartial.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    You can condemn a person's beliefs and still condemn bigotry/discrimination directed at that person because of their beliefs. Pretty basic stuff I would have thought.
    So you're saying LGBT people are knowingly tolerant against people that would quite possibly kill them? And in fact do kill them.

    LGBT people are the Jesus of our time.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    I say leave them to it.
    If people want to pretend that Islam respects gay rights then so be it.
    Just don't whinge about it if they are attacked or suffer verbal abuse.

    Get on with our lives. Not our concern


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    looking forward to seeing pro LGBT posters at Islamic events. or is this an unrequited love affair?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Cant find the link I saw previously, but this is similar:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305

    I've no idea if the BBC is considered a left/right/Conservative/Liberal biased source so I don't know if it can be taken as impartial.

    Christian persecution? Well i'm afraid Chritianophobia is not a word so no placards necessary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,203 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I think in this country, there isn't much Islam, therefore LGBT people aren't exposed to it that often. People base their views on the familiar, and in Ireland Roman Catholicism and it's agents(the state) were the enemy, this leaves a cultural hallmark of sorts.

    The LGBT movement in the Lebanon have both to deal with, and they're one of the more successful LGBT movements in the middle East, bar Turkey (is that the middle east??).

    The way I see it the Islamic world peaked many centuries ago in terms of art, culture, science etc. where as Christian Europe had a rebirth and continues on a path of expanding horizons. Islamic culture, not the belief system per say (which is as ridiculous as Christianity), is backward looking. The measure of progression in those societies is being 'holier'. The times of Muhammod were the holiest and they harp back to those days as the gold standard. Christians await a second coming of Christ(well not anymore but western society is based on that traditionally), so culturally Christian countries are always looking forward to something, that thinking lends it's self to more progression, learning more about the universe, improving processes, making society more equitable, making every generation better off than the last etc.

    The Islamic world may yet change though, most notably, Mustafa Attaturk who legalised male homosexuality in Turkey 100 years ago (74 years before Ireland). He was a great reformer who sought to create a modern muslim republic, unfortunately his vision has largely been ignored by subsequent leaders. There is potential for modernisation of Islam in other countries. Take the UAE as an example, where a 2nd generation of Emiratis have extreme wealth, when that all comes crashing down, they're going to have a long hard think about what sort of society they are going to have going forward.

    In short, muslims are products of their upbringing, same as everyone. If we make Islamic ghettos in Ireland like there are in France, Belgium and the UK, those places will become as backward as the muslim world. People make a place, not the other way around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Pride is about pride in who you are.

    Whether its about pride in being gay ...or pride in being Muslim.

    Its about standing up to ALL forms of bigotry because that is nothing to be proud of.

    Whether you are muslim or jewish or christian when you are right in yourself you will right with others.

    The LGBT movement got where it is by the way of LOVE.

    If there are muslims who are homophobic you are only going to speak to them through love and respect.

    Be kind to people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    They don't support Islam. They oppose discrimination based on religion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    cgcsb wrote: »
    In short, muslims are products of their upbringing, same as everyone. If we make Islamic ghettos in Ireland like there are in France, Belgium and the UK, those places will become as backward as the muslim world. People make a place, not the other way around.
    its already happening. take a walk down Clanbrassil st and Leonard's corner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Plus there are just as many gay people in the Muslim community as any other community. Don't let people tell you otherwise.

    I hope they feel the pride this year! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    some-people-preach-tolerance-othersiust-practice-it-22898524.png


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I've been scolded out of the Pride month thread for derailing it (apologies) so I'll ask here.

    First off, this is a legitimate question, I'm not looking to bash/condemn anyone in the LGBTQ community, and I'm not looking to condemn Muslims or Islam.

    I'm just genuinely curious about why there has been an increase, often at LGBTQ marches etc, of support shown by that community, towards the Muslim community.

    lgbt_brum_web.jpg

    I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

    I can totally understand them condemning both, as both religions teach that homosexuality is wrong/sinful. I just don't get why one is supported and the other is not.

    Again, this is a genuine question that I'm curious about so please don't drag it down to a mud slinging match.

    LGBT is a division of the political and cultural left, it's just another identity politics movement(many gay people do not identify with it)

    Islam is a sacred cow of the left

    That's all there is to know here


Advertisement