Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

LGBT and Islam

2456717

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Probably because one community which suffers discrimination and hatred can empathise with other demographics who experience the same.

    Ah yes, both are officially victims


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    biko wrote: »
    some-people-preach-tolerance-othersiust-practice-it-22898524.png


    Yeah stand up for the giant corporation whose practicing or non practicing members have not faced bigotry for nearly two thousand years in the west.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,825 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    That's why I specified in the first post that the extremist Sharia law "death to gays" brigade is a small minority of Muslims, especially in the west.

    Yeah, I know, but you just know some people are going to wander in, ignore your words and mine, and then have a go at the religion anyway on the basis that Muslims are automatically homophobic because that's what they've been told and they can't be bothered challenging it.

    Cases in point:
    I wonder if the people in that photo had the choice to walk down the main street of one of two cities let's say Rome or Tehran looking like that which they'd chose.

    Exactly.

    For the record i have no interest in any religion or sky fairies.

    (Pretty sure Rome has had pride parades)
    looking forward to seeing pro LGBT posters at Islamic events. or is this an unrequited love affair?
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    LGBT is a division of the political and cultural left

    Islam is a sacred cow of the left

    That's all there is to know here

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Ah yes, both are officially victims

    Nope ..don't make that mistake. Survivors.

    Moaning straight people are victims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,145 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    LGBT is a division of the political and cultural left, it's just another identity politics movement(many gay people do not identify with it)

    Islam is a sacred cow of the left

    That's all there is to know here

    Well I certainly wouldn't say its that straightforward.

    But even if it was, WHY (in your opinion) is Islam the sacred cow of the left?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    I do think they should stand up for gay muslims though in countries like Brunei where they get stoned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    biko wrote: »
    [IMG][/IMG]

    westboro.jpg

    What's your point Biko?

    Some people are dicks?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,333 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Its about standing up to ALL forms of bigotry because that is nothing to be proud of.

    Be kind to people.

    Yeah stand up for the giant corporation whose practicing or non practicing members have not faced bigotry for nearly two thousand years in the west.


    Changed your tune there fairly sharpish ILYB? :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Probably because one community which suffers discrimination and hatred can empathise with other demographics who experience the same.

    If that was the case the LGBTQ+ community would support Christianity. There are plenty of countries around the world where Christians suffer from discrimination.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    westboro.jpg

    What's your point Biko?
    My point LGBT people would support the guy in your image.

    Those values are Islam values.
    I oppose those values.
    Do you oppose those values?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 6,574 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    westboro.jpg

    What's your point Biko?

    Some people are dicks?

    Does anyone else think people like yer man there suffer from a mental illness of some description? And I don't mean just being an asshole. There must be something medically wrong with someone like that.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,320 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Feisar wrote: »
    Does anyone else think people like yer man there suffer from a mental illness of some description? And I don't mean just being an asshole. There must be something medically wrong with someone like that.

    It is hard to say. Although they failed comically there are users on this forum, and even this thread, who have tried in the past to suggest that same sex parenting was detrimental to kids. Or was somehow less than the "ideal" of having one parent of each gender.

    The difference between them and the guy in the picture is the guy in the picture is on the street with a placard. But other than that, they are espousing the same position really.

    I do not think holding a placard or protesting publicly makes you mentally ill. I also do not think being entirely wrong on the subject of parenting makes you mentally ill.

    Espousing unsubstantiated nonsense just makes you wrong, not ill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭NaFirinne


    Anyone can have pride, question is do they have honor.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Berserker wrote: »
    If that was the case the LGBTQ+ community would support Christianity. There are plenty of countries around the world where Christians suffer from discrimination.

    I'm willing to bet that there are plenty more countries where Muslims are facing discrimination.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Harley Embarrassed Wuss


    Funny, when it's about Alex Jones or some other right wing nutjob the thread is infested with people doggedly making a variation on the point that you can respect someone's right to hold and express beliefs and not be persecuted for them, without yourself agreeing with those beliefs. But transpose that exact same scenario onto Islam and the LGBT movement and the same fcukers are here bamboozled and disdainful. Mind you, probably fully convinced that those people are more persecuted than Muslims.

    Christians are not persecuted in the western world. That's where these parades are taking place. Sure I bet the parade in Paris said nothing about the travellers, didn't see a word about the Rohinga in the Berlin one so it's all a sham!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Gays are described as the worst people in existence by Mohamed.

    Though he had the same to say about Jews and Women.

    Rich white activists look at Muslims as Brown people, therefore in need of their protection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

    I can totally understand them condemning both, as both religions teach that homosexuality is wrong/sinful. I just don't get why one is supported and the other is not.

    Again, this is a genuine question that I'm curious about so please don't drag it down to a mud slinging match.

    To put my bias cards on the table, I'm an evangelical Christian.

    The problem is that our discourse in the West is broken on this issue because of a fear of not being politically correct.

    We also seek to blunt tensions in a simplistic manner, kind of like in the post below:
    Probably because one community which suffers discrimination and hatred can empathise with other demographics who experience the same.

    There is a tension. Christianity in its Biblical sources, and Islam in its Qur'anic sources are opposed to any sexual acts outside of a heterosexual marriage. Islamic rules about marriage do differ significantly to Christian ones in some ways. For example - Christianity doesn't have a concept of temporary marriage (there is some discussion around how legitimate this is in Islam).

    What do you then do with that tension?

    There's a couple of choices.

    Shut down the tension by saying that disagreement is hate speech. This seems to be how Western liberal society progresses when Christians express a public position on this. This includes attempts at character assassination so that people lose their jobs and so on. The specific example I can think of recently is in respect to Israel Folau in Australia. It will be interesting to see how the courts decide on this.

    Suppress the tension by denying its existence. Deny that there is any significant difference, or claim that it is just a bunch of hardcore fanatics hold to it. The reality is of course, that the so called "fanatics" are the ones who actually hold to what the Bible (or the Qur'an in the case of Muslims) says. (This seems to be the option that most people take with Islam).

    Respect that people disagree and accept their liberty to do so. This seems to be the traditional Western view on this before the introduction of "hate speech" laws. It accepts that people have the liberty to say what they want and believe what they want. This seems to be the model that America on a federal level holds to in its constitution. It seems to be the right one from my perspective. Why? Disagreement on sexual matters is genuinely not hatred. You can disagree with me on that and offer your reasons if you wish.

    Now - why do people choose the second option for Islam more often than the first. The reason is because Islam is more tightly coupled to race. Christianity because of its great advancement largely during the Victorian era and in the 20th century is obviously not tied to race. If one had to tie it to race one would incorrectly assume that it is a Western religion. Therefore it cannot be perceived to be racist to criticise it. Of course that neglects the understanding that there are plenty of white Muslims in places like Chechnya or in the Balkans, but by and large the majority that live in Western countries are from Asia. If people chose the character assassination option then it would be incorrectly derided as being racist, rather than simply being prejudicial towards the belief system of conservative Muslims.

    The best way to deal with the issues directly is to take the third option - accept liberty of speech and beliefs and to thrash the issues out in the public square in the pursuit of understanding.

    Choosing the first or second option only gives us a superficial and shallow understanding of the issues which is why the OP finds himself frustrated over the lack of engagement on the issues.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Or you could accept the fact that people aren't drones who slavishly comply with each and every detail in their holy book of choice, a feat which would be impossible in any case.

    I've seen the cherrypicking and the "any criticism of Islam" is hate speech nonsense before. No thanks.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Feisar wrote: »
    Does anyone else think people like yer man there suffer from a mental illness of some description? And I don't mean just being an asshole. There must be something medically wrong with someone like that.

    He is probably an oddball, his views would be considered extreme in most Western societies.

    In Clonskeagh and other Mosques, he'd be the imam.

    The head figure for their fatwa council says gays must be lashed, killed if in Islamic societies, long list if people who must be beaten or killed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    lgbt support for muslims as victims of oppression, fine.

    lgbt support for islam, very silly.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Harvey Weinstein


    Its a marriage that will end very badly for one side


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    biko wrote: »
    My point LGBT people would support the guy in your image.


    What makes you think that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Plopsu


    Danzy wrote: »
    He is probably an oddball, his views would be considered extreme in most Western societies.

    In Clonskeagh and other Mosques, he'd be the imam.

    The head figure for their fatwa council says gays must be lashed, killed if in Islamic societies, long list if people who must be beaten or killed.

    Is he not one of the Westboro Baptists? They're well known loonies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Harvey Weinstein


    eb8.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    In the Netherlands and France, parties like Me Pens and Wilders have strong backing from gay people.

    Probably a class division, the leafy suburbs providing left activists, those in working class areas providing others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    biko wrote: »
    My point LGBT people would support the guy in your image.

    Those values are Islam values.
    I oppose those values.
    Do you oppose those values?

    I absolutely stand for his right to free speech. I do not stand for free hate speech.

    I don't care if they're Christian, Muslim, white, black, gay or straight.

    But you already know this, you attempted a strawman and it was awful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Cyclepath


    Here's a handy infographic backed up by research that outlines broad muslim attitudes to various social issues.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/infographic-the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-and-society/

    Of course there are nuances. I know many moderate (i.e. non practicing) muslims with liberal views, but let's not fool ourselves that Islam and LGBTQ+ could ever align in any meaningful way.

    Some more information on more localised attitudes from the UK:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Surprised it took this long for the LGBT bashers to pretend they give a **** about them for a few minutes so they can bash the Muslims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Well I certainly wouldn't say its that straightforward.

    But even if it was, WHY (in your opinion) is Islam the sacred cow of the left?

    The left believe in ringfencing minorities from criticism

    Long standing practice


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,320 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    The left believe in ringfencing minorities from criticism

    Long standing practice

    I think in my experience people are often interested in ring fencing minorities for protection merely for BEING minorities. But criticism of their ideas as a minority are fair game.

    My own motto is "Respect people, never ideas". But often people can not tell the difference. Either by attacking the minority instead of their ideas or.... in the other direction.... mistaking protection of minorities as a ring fence protection of their ideas.

    Here in Ireland Muslims are a minority. I would want to ring fence them for protection for THAT reason.

    However their ideas.... Islam itself..... is to me one of the more dangerous and damaging and awful religions making it's way into our culture and I think it is fair game for robust attack and criticism.

    And I am perfectly capable of affording extra protection to one and extra ire to the other without any internal contradiction. But for some people separating people, and the ideas in the brains of those people, is beyond them. To the point some people conflate criticism of Islam with hate speech or racism. Which could not be more ridiculous.


Advertisement